How rigid are your principles?

[Aldaniti]

The WWF seems to disagree: http://www.wwf.org.au/our_work/savi..._wwf_is_doing/certified_sustainable_palm_oil/

I'm glad you posted that, thank you. I have, in the past, tried not to buy some products containing palm oil - and so the article about CSPO, and that boycotting is not the answer, was useful.

 

[Qwerty133]

I always take time to think things through to check my principles are valid and fair. I certainly don't want to help the Tory party in any way, I won't be buying Warburtons again after reading the first post.

Morrisons are boycotted by me at the moment.
They changed the "Create you own pizza" offer, it was 2 for £4, but last month it changed to £2.60 each (which was the original price), but no mulitbuy.
Fair enough? No, on top of that they now claim that cheese is counted as a topping so in effect a quarter of the topping choices are gone without paying extra (50p a topping), so it would cost me £6.20 for the same purchase as before.
To add further insult they have added "New and Improved" signs to it which is a total lie, and after I asked for them to please revert it, their solution was to send me a £1 voucher. They have lost a long time customer now.
"Disappointment, Morrisons Makes It"

I usually don't care which shop I use unless it's been associated with tax evasion/slavery/overly expensive etc.

Supermarkets have been told to stop permanent 'offers', and as a private business Morrisons are well within there rights to charge whatever they would like for one of their pizza's, just as you are within your rights to choose not to buy it.
However supermarkets do need to raise their prices on occasion as they need to make a profit, so do you really expect them to be able to revert all price changes at any point?

 

[Phil.]

I can see where you're coming from EM2, and I strongly agree with your points. I personally don't think companies or football teams should donate to political parties, as I myself don't buy Warburton's bread because the company donates to a political party that I don't support. I don't want to give my money (albeit indirectly) to a company that supports the Tories, so I generally make my own bread, or buy the Co-op's bread if I don't have the ingredients. However, I'm far from against individuals donating to political parties if they choose to, as it is their money to do with as they wish.

Like yourself, my mother's partner also supports West Ham United. I don't know what he thinks of the donation, but next time I speak to him I'll ask, as I'm certainly interested to hear what he thinks about it.

It sounds like you're a Labour supporter so where do you stand on Corbyn allowing the re-instatement of the racist Jackie Walker who claimed that The Jews were the main protagonists in the sugar and slave trade - quietly ignoring the fact that Arabs were dealing in slaves before Africa was discovered by Europeans?

http://order-order.com/2016/05/28/labour-reinstate-race-row-corbynista/

 

[Steveman]

It sounds like you're a Labour supporter so where do you stand on Corbyn allowing the re-instatement of the racist Jackie Walker who claimed that The Jews were the main protagonists in the sugar and slave trade - quietly ignoring the fact that Arabs were dealing in slaves before Africa was discovered by Europeans?

http://order-order.com/2016/05/28/labour-reinstate-race-row-corbynista/

Livingstone is undoubtedly also going to be welcomed back and in fact he's already told people he knows he is.

 

[507021]

It sounds like you're a Labour supporter so where do you stand on Corbyn allowing the re-instatement of the racist Jackie Walker who claimed that The Jews were the main protagonists in the sugar and slave trade - quietly ignoring the fact that Arabs were dealing in slaves before Africa was discovered by Europeans?

http://order-order.com/2016/05/28/labour-reinstate-race-row-corbynista/

I'm not actually, I support the Liberal Party. I don't have any time whatsoever for either of the large parties.

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

When was "Africa discovered by Europeans" exactly??

 

[Clip]

When was "Africa discovered by Europeans" exactly??

Whilst its only wiki its generally correct on this
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploration_of_Africa

 

[Minilad]

I've just had a thought. The owners of West Ham made the bulk of their money from porn and "adult shops". So the OP was quite happy to support the club knowing that porn merchants were the owners but not so happy that they are Tory porn merchants. Which suggests a Tory is worse than a porn merchant. But to be fair thats not such a bad call

 

[Phil.]

I've just had a thought. The owners of West Ham made the bulk of their money from porn and "adult shops". So the OP was quite happy to support the club knowing that porn merchants were the owners but not so happy that they are Tory porn merchants. Which suggests a Tory is worse than a porn merchant. But to be fair thats not such a bad call

Well it just shows the naivety of principles. As I stated in my first reply if you apply principles because you don't like/agree you'll never buy anything.
I'd like to have taken the train to London on Thursday but the power for it is supplied by an MTU engine and as you know MTU is the re-named Maybach company that supplied engines for Hitler's tanks. Perhaps I'll drive, Oh wait, my car is German. Blast, I'll just have to stay at home and listen to my Japanese radio. Oh dear, we all know what little beasts the Japanese were.
And so it goes on ad finitum.

 

[EM2]

Well it just shows the naivety of principles. As I stated in my first reply if you apply principles because you don't like/agree you'll never buy anything.
I'd like to have taken the train to London on Thursday but the power for it is supplied by an MTU engine and as you know MTU is the re-named Maybach company that supplied engines for Hitler's tanks. Perhaps I'll drive, Oh wait, my car is German. Blast, I'll just have to stay at home and listen to my Japanese radio. Oh dear, we all know what little beasts the Japanese were.
And so it goes on ad finitum.

But you made the decision to buy a German car and a Japanese radio.
If you decided to, you could have bought a French or Swedish car, or a British radio.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

When was "Africa discovered by Europeans" exactly??

Was it not the case of our particular human race all originally emanated from Africa?

 

[ComUtoR]

Fee free to google the going on today. How rigid are your principles now ?

 

[EM2]

Fee free to google the going on today. How rigid are your principles now ?

I have no idea what you are going on about.

 

[ComUtoR]

Mike Ashley and Sports Direct are currently trending across various news outlets. He has finally come under scrutiny about the disgusting treatment of staff at his warehouses. This has been an ongoing investigation since around last year when his shocking working practices were revealed by Ch4.

Mike Ashley is Newcastle United. As I previously mentioned. Can you separate the man from the club ?

Can you separate West Ham from its owners ? Is the line in the sand only drawn when there is a clear distinction ? People are prepared to separate individuals out when it conflicts with their principles but I would say that there is little distinction between the two and that people will always compromise when it suits them.

Yes this is Newcastle but it highlights my point that individuals are directly linked. Celebs lose sponsorship at the drop of a hat if there is negative press (Maria Sharapova as a current example)

 

[EM2]

Mike Ashley is Newcastle United. As I previously mentioned. Can you separate the man from the club ?

Can you separate West Ham from its owners ? Is the line in the sand only drawn when there is a clear distinction ? People are prepared to separate individuals out when it conflicts with their principles but I would say that there is little distinction between the two and that people will always compromise when it suits them.

I try not to pay money to Sports Direct unless I can find no other alternative.
With regard to the owners of West Ham United, I don't recall having paid them money for products from their other companies, and certainly not since they have been the owners. However, I would have no qualms doing so, unless I knew that the staff involved were working under similar conditions to those at Sports Direct.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

A couple of points not so far made in this thread:

1. Rigid application of principles leads ultimately to conflict and even war. The art of diplomacy is about finding mutually acceptable compromise. Sadly the whole concept of compromise is something that the media seem to find abhorrent so arguments get unnecessary stoking and extremists lap up the publicity.

2. If you don't like the actions of an organisation that you would otherwise be loyal towards then surely you need to tell them. How many Newcastle/West Ham fans have bothered yet will still be moaning to anyone who'll listen?

3. As others have said if you want to take the moral high ground in everything you do then you will be living an austere and likely isolated life. Ultimately it must come down to the conscience of each and every one of us. The "holier than thou" types are often joyless individuals while the people with the most "fun" in their lives are generally very selfish. The world's various religions all have various messages offering guidance in how to live virtuously yet are probably to blame for most of the conflict we see in the world.

 

[EM2]

1. That's why there's a question in the title of the thread.
2. I have asked David Gold via Twitter, as have a number of others. He has not replied.
3. The 'moral high ground' is a different place for different people. You may 'be living an austere and likely isolated life', or a life full of excitement and adventure.

 

[ComUtoR]

Your kinda missing my point (or I'm not making it well)

Can you separate Club from Owner ? David Gold and David Sullivan have made their money from porn. Is it acceptable to have a club funded from money made in the porn industry ?

Can you make the distinction between David and David showing direct support for the conservatives and attending their fundraisers from their relationship with the Club ?

Can you separate The Donation to the Conservatives from the Club ?

I say that people will make that distinction when it suits them because they will compromise their principles at the drop of a hat. People will stand by their principles when its public. Sports Direct is a clear example, Starbucks is another. When its easier to hide people will compromise without thinking.

I think its easy to make the distinction between owner and club as it you can hide behind a grey area but its harder to hide behind a public donation. I don't see it as any different. I would say there are many Newcastle United fans who despise what Mike Ashley does with Sports Direct but they will still support the team. Just as many West Ham supports will be hard line Labour supporters but still support the club.

I believe that we all compromise our principles to suit and are willing to turn a blind eye at any moment.

I think that if you are truly anti conservative and are rigid in your principles then you have no alternative than to remove your support for the club. Anything else is a compromise.

 

[EM2]

I think that if you are truly anti conservative and are rigid in your principles then you have no alternative than to remove your support for the club. Anything else is a compromise.

Which is the question I asked at the very beginning:

It's still a dilemma though. Maybe it'll be a case of 'support the team, not the regime' but can I do that knowing our new striker has been funded by the same people who have funded the Conservatives? I really don't know.

 

[ComUtoR]

Money from porn is worse than money to the conservatives ?

We are always compromising. Its just a matter of where you draw that line. I think if your looking for justification either way then your principles are already compromised and potentially looking for an excuse to compromise further.

The donation has been made. Irrespective of what reply you get from David Gold West Ham have clearly funded the Conservatives and that David and David are clearly Conservative supporters.

When a player does something wrong, a club will drop them like a stone because it is seen as a reflection on them. Its the same distinctions being made. Is a single players behaviour a reflection of the Club ?

By supporting a club does that mean everything the club and its players, owners and other fans do is representative of you and your beliefs ?

I think the way in which the fans treated Man United recently was disgraceful but I can separate out Club, Fans, and individuals.

I think you must decide if you are prepared to make the distinction between what your club does and what you do.

 

[Butts]

You may have read that West Ham United donated £12,500 to the Conservative Party in January. This is not the owners donating in their capacity as individuals, but the company of West Ham United itself.
You may also be aware through my postings that I am a supporter of West Ham United and not of the Conservative Party.

Over the last few years, I've not given any business to companies whose conduct I disagree with when I've found out about it, whether that's avoiding tax by using various means, donating or funding causes that I don't agree with or cutting perks for their staff with the excuse of the new living wage.
But I've always had an alternative. Instead of going to Starbucks, I can go to an independent. Instead of buying Warburton's bread (who also donate to the Conservatives), I can buy Co-Op.
As it happens, I don't give a lot of money to West Ham, although I have supported them for thirty-six years. I can't afford to go to matches that often, and I work a lot of match days so couldn't go anyway.
It's still a dilemma though. Maybe it'll be a case of 'support the team, not the regime' but can I do that knowing our new striker has been funded by the same people who have funded the Conservatives? I really don't know.

What are your thoughts? Are your principles absolutely firm? Do you have some flexibility, some variation in your moral compass?

Perhaps you should be more concerned about West Ham United not being an accredited Living Wage Employer rather than a frankly for the size of the organisation miniscule donation.

How does your conscience reconcile paying players £30,000 per week or more whilst not paying ancillary staff The Living Wage ?

 

[EM2]

Perhaps you should be more concerned about West Ham United not being an accredited Living Wage Employer rather than a frankly for the size of the organisation miniscule donation.

How does your conscience reconcile paying players £30,000 per week or more whilst not paying ancillary staff The Living Wage ?

Until you mentioned it, I wasn't aware of it. Do you have a link so I can read more?

 

[Butts]

Until you mentioned it, I wasn't aware of it. Do you have a link so I can read more?

Afraid I am not to hot on "the link process" technicalities - the Living Wage organisation have a list of accredited employers. They have to pay all contractors as well as established employees in order to qualify.