How should Moses Gate, Farnworth, Kearsley and Clifton be served once Wigan to Bolton electrification is complete?

[Greybeard33]

Has there been any information on how 6-car 323 (138m) formations are expected to serve Moses Gate (85m), Farnworth (100m), Kearsley (109/126m) and Clifton (95m)?

Only the hourly Southport diesel service calls at those stations.

Presently. There's the possibility/expectation of a timetable recast though, with 2tph Wigan to Stalybridge EMU and the Southport rerouted via Atherton. The 4 stations between Bolton and Salford can only really be served by the Wigan service.

You aren't the only person who been having those thoughts, I'm sure "it won't be a problem Northern can us 319s/769s" was probably the plan at one point...

I worked at Farnworth station many times I can vouch that inter-station travel on the line beyond that to Bolton and Manchester is virtually zero, I definitely didn't sell any tickets to Moses Gate or Kearsley so that opens the options to having other trains stopping at just one of the intermediate stations and the 6 car trains running none stop between Bolton and the Crescent if needs be.

Copied from the Wigan - Bolton electrification construction updates thread to keep that thread on topic.

Presumably possible options include:

• extend the platforms at those stations to 6-car length;
• for the Blackburn/Clitheroe DMUs to take over the calls;
• use 331 formations (with SDO) on the Wigan - Bolton route;
• skip-stop calls by 331/195 formations working the Blackpool/Barrow/Windermere routes.

 

[Dspatula]

Simple answer is they don't need six carriages.
I suspect the timetable changes will be that the current Southport Stalybridge is cut back and diverted to Wigan North Western, and run with single 323s.
The current Wigan Leeds via Atherton train is split with the Manchester Wigan bit extended to Southport.
At peak time a four car DMU formation will run Southport to Manchester Victoria in morning and the reverse in the evening with the 323 running fast via Golborn peak time service.

 

[Bevan Price]

The easiest way would be for them to be served by the diesel Manchester - Blakburn/Clitheroe services. The snag is that this would add several minutes to the Manchester / Blackburn journey times.

Clifton, Kearsley, and (to a lesser extent) Farnworth stations lie at the bottom, or partway down, a hill, whilst much of the local population is located some distance away, around the top of the hill (and the main Manchester to Bolton road). So an hourly rail service is always going to struggle to compete with slower - but much more frequent bus services on that main road.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Simple answer is they don't need six carriages.
I suspect the timetable changes will be that the current Southport Stalybridge is cut back and diverted to Wigan North Western, and run with single 323s.
The current Wigan Leeds via Atherton train is split with the Manchester Wigan bit extended to Southport.
At peak time a four car DMU formation will run Southport to Manchester Victoria in morning and the reverse in the evening with the 323 running fast via Golborn peak time service.

A majority of Southport services through the day are already operated by 4-car DMUs and given restoration of a reliable service on the Atherton line such formations would certainly be necessary to cope with demand. The Victoria-Chat Moss-Wigan peak hour flyers are necessary to avoid the need for any 6-car trains on Atherton line peak hour services. As for the stations between Salford Crescent and Bolton it would make the most sense for those to be served by electric trains to minimise the potential delays to the other non-stopping services, so not the Darwen line trains.

 

[bluenoxid]

I assume the 323s are not fitted with selective door opening and that the timetable probably won’t offer a better service.

It does seem an interesting choice to operate shorter diesel trains on an electrified line and have them having to drag themselves from standing starts at 3-4 stations, the three better served being within 4 minutes of each other. This is the type of work that electrics would do well at.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

The easiest way would be for them to be served by the diesel Manchester - Blakburn/Clitheroe services. The snag is that this would add several minutes to the Manchester / Blackburn journey times.

Is there not a risk of
1. Holding up the Blackpool's (as already happens when they're a couple minutes late)?
2. Messing up the timings for the single track sections?

I assume the 323s are not fitted with selective door opening

The 323s don't have SDO, which is why Ince, Hindley and Westhoughton platforms are being extended.

 

[Greybeard33]

It does seem an interesting choice to operate shorter diesel trains on an electrified line and have them having to drag themselves from standing starts at 3-4 stations, the three better served being within 4 minutes of each other. This is the type of work that electrics would do well at.

If the 769s are retained they could take over the Rochdale - Blackburn/Clitheroe route, using the wires between Victoria and Bolton. Then they could continue to serve the intermediate stations, as they do now on the Southport - Stalybridge route.

However, they might struggle with the climb up to Sough Tunnel on diesel, although the TfW examples seemed to cope (just about) with the hills on the Rhymney line. And a driver training programme would be needed, to get the required combination of route and traction knowledge.

 

[td97]

I would suggest Blackpool North and Cumbria trains are 'regional express' type services and are not going to serve these small stations, for both journey time and capacity reasons.

This leaves Wigan/Southport and Blackburn/Clitheroe. If Wigan services go to 6-car 323, this leaves the Blackburn/Clitheroe services.

The easiest way would be for them to be served by the diesel Manchester - Blakburn/Clitheroe services. The snag is that this would add several minutes to the Manchester / Blackburn journey times.

but a) are too busy even without extra passengers from these stops, b) journey time increase, and c) can't be timetabled as all stops in the existing iteration of the timetable.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do 323s have local door controls, if so could they be done as local door? They are hardly busy.

I think traditionally the Clitheroes (which tend to be 2 or at most 4 car 15x) did serve them? This was before Southport-Vic was hourly, when it was just a couple of peak extras, with Castlefield being hourly.

 

[Manutd1999]

An EMU Wigan-Bolton-Stalybridge makes a lot of sense, so surely platform extensions are the preferred way forward? Blackburn/Blackpool/Lakes services can then continue to run non-stop to Bolton.

 

[Bletchleyite]

An EMU Wigan-Bolton-Stalybridge makes a lot of sense, so surely platform extensions are the preferred way forward? Blackburn/Blackpool/Lakes services can then continue to run non-stop to Bolton.

Would a Wigan-Stalybridge EMU be any longer than 3 car? I doubt it. A 3x23m 323 (69m) would fit them all. (I've just noticed that the class number is the same numbers as the vehicle lengths, wonder was that deliberate? )

 

[Manutd1999]

Potentially yes, 3-car could be fine. But then why did they extend the platforms between Bolton and Wigan?

 

[td97]

A 3x23m 323 (69m) would fit them all.

But then why did they extend the platforms between Bolton and Wigan?

To run as a 6-car 323... hence why this thread exists

 

[pokemonsuper9]

What about
1 3-car 323 on Wigan - Stalybridge, stopping at these stops
1 6-car 323 on Wigan - Oxford Road, to have the capacity onto the Castlefield corridor, making use of the platform extensions

I don't know how busy a Wigan-Stalybridge would be, I've seen the 769s quite busy at times, so a whole less carriage probably wouldn't help

Also, Ince currently sees no service from the via Westhoughton trains, so that might be added to them once there's 323s

 

[Bletchleyite]

What about
1 3-car 323 on Wigan - Stalybridge, stopping at these stops
1 6-car 323 on Wigan - Oxford Road, to have the capacity onto the Castlefield corridor, making use of the platform extensions

Much as Southport-Vic via Atherton twice an hour makes sense, I'm sure the various passenger groups are ready to have that fight again, and thus it's likely the Southport-Oxford Road service won't go away, rather it'll be worked by 769s like it is now and then the new bi-modes when they arrive.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Much as Southport-Vic via Atherton twice an hour makes sense, I'm sure the various passenger groups are ready to have that fight again, and thus it's likely the Southport-Oxford Road service won't go away, rather it'll be worked by 769s like it is now and then the new bi-modes when they arrive.

Surely it'd be possible to promise them a quick connection at Hindley, like how the Headbolt Lane one interacts with the ex- Oxford Road (5 minutes behind)

 

[Greybeard33]

Would a Wigan-Stalybridge EMU be any longer than 3 car? I doubt it. A 3x23m 323 (69m) would fit them all. (I've just noticed that the class number is the same numbers as the vehicle lengths, wonder was that deliberate? )

Replacement of 4-car 769s by 3-car 323s would hardly give a good return on the £78m investment in the electrification project (including the platform extensions to 6-car at Ince, Hindley and Westhoughton).

6-car 323s to Stalybridge would require platform extensions at Ashton, as well as at the stations on the Bolton line (the opportunity to do this as part of the TRU upgrading of the Ashton line has now been missed).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Replacement of 4-car 769s by 3-car 323s would hardly give a good return on the £78m investment in the electrification project (including the platform extensions to 6-car at Ince, Hindley and Westhoughton).

6-car 323s to Stalybridge would require platform extensions at Ashton, as well as at the stations on the Bolton line (the opportunity to do this as part of the TRU upgrading of the Ashton line has now been missed).

Are these definitely going to be 323s, or could they be 4.331 which have ASDO? I know 323s were cited for Blackpool but I don't recall hearing anything definite about the Wigans.

 

[Kite159]

Crazy idea, serve those stations with a 1tph Stalybridge - Bolton stopper using a single 323 and the bay platform at Bolton with a separate single 323 running from Stalybridge to Wigan North Western via Bolton giving Ashton back 2tph it had before Covid with some peak time extras using a pair of 323s which terminates at Victoria (or even Oxford Road)

Then a 769 could run from Oxford Road to Wigan Wallgate (changing to diesel at Ince) before carrying on to Southport. 2tph on the Atherton route (Leeds - Wigan & Blackburn - Headbolt Lane as it currently stands)

 

[Trackman]

The easiest way would be for them to be served by the diesel Manchester - Blakburn/Clitheroe services. The snag is that this would add several minutes to the Manchester / Blackburn journey times.

That's how it was about 60 years ago, up to the mid 80s, stopper went as far as Blackburn though.
In the mornings back then there was one Blackpool, Southport (I think) and Kirkby stopper from Vic too.

 

[D9006]

as someone who uses trains on this line on avery regularly basis, off peak and peak times, a 6 car train Wigan to Manchester is simply overkill . We had 2 car 142son many peak services for years, so a 3 car 323 starting at north western( most passengers at Wigan naturally go to wallgate as habit. So starting from north western the train would be very quiet, just like the Leeds service when that started at north western. These would then have sufficient capacity to cope with the stops . Clifton and Kearsley generate enough custom to fit a robin realint running once an hour

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

That's how it was about 60 years ago, up to the mid 80s, stopper went as far as Blackburn though.
In the mornings back then there was one Blackpool, Southport (I think) and Kirkby stopper from Vic too.

More recently, that's to say from December 2008 (Virgin VHF), the intermediate stops were covered by one of the roughly half-hourly Wallgate-Victoria services. Timekeeping could sometimes be an issue towards Manchester due to having to immediately follow a Blackpool-Airport service which was notorious for reaching Lostock Junction a few minutes late. There is another possibility, namely putting the stops on a Manchester-Preston(-Blackpool) stopping service thereby ensuring use of EMUs on the stopper but again the issue of rolling stock vs platform length may arise. The lack of consistency in platform extension lengths is rather frustrating.

 

[Philip]

Is the plan for Clifton to go to an hourly service interval?

 

[Greybeard33]

Are these definitely going to be 323s, or could they be 4.331 which have ASDO? I know 323s were cited for Blackpool but I don't recall hearing anything definite about the Wigans.

The platforms are long enough for 4-car 331s without needing ASDO.

 

[Dspatula]

I suppose if I were to put my tin foil hat on and note that the other stations that have had or are having 6 car extensions are between Piccadilly and the Airport I might guess at a Wigan-Bolton-Piccadilly-Airport service if a bigger timetable change is in the works, not really sure how it would be done though.

 

[Ant158]

The peak time Clitheroe services do randomly stop at either Farnworth or Moses Gate at the moment.

It already takes over an hour from Ribble valley to Manchester and the peak time trains are often crammed and standing (Northern only putting a 2 car 150 on the train that passes through Bromley Cross etc at 7.30am, when the line is mostly 4 cars all day doesn't help!). Adding more time to these journeys will just push people to drive instead. Skip stop all day might work, with Farnworth or moses gate etc been served every other train?

 

[Greybeard33]

I know 323s were cited for Blackpool but I don't recall hearing anything definite about the Wigans.

I believe official statements have implied an intention to use 6-car 323 formations on the Wigan - Bolton route. For example:

Green light given for Wigan to Bolton electrification

Major upgrade, including electrification and longer electric trains, to railway line between Wigan and Bolton announced.

www.gov.uk

Through electrifying almost 13 miles of infrastructure and lengthening platforms, this investment will ensure that CO2 emitting diesel trains are replaced by electric rolling stock. As longer trains with additional capacity, these will provide passengers with greener, more comfortable and more reliable journeys.

Platforms will also be extended at Hindley, Westhoughton and Ince stations to reduce overcrowding at peak times and cater for six-carriage trains in the future.

6-car trains could alternatively be 331 formations, but nine of the 331/0s have recently been sent to Yorkshire, with more likely to follow as more ex-WMT 323s arrive. It seems unlikely that the Wigan route would be preferred to the Blackpool route for the remainder.

However, plans can change. Some relevant posts from the Northern 319 departure thread:

Once the Westhoughton line electrification is complete it's expected that all Southport-Manchester services will run via Atherton for which bi-modes would be pointless as trains will likely be going either to Oxford Road or Victoria/Rochdale/etc.

I wondered that and put the question to two Northern managers at a meeting last week. The reply was that although no firm decisions have been made about the future of the 769s, they said that there is a well established direct connection between Southport and Bolton which they would be loathe to break by diverting trains from Southport to run via Atherton. Whilst I can see the reasoning behind the assumption that trains from Southport would go that way, be they 150/156 or 769s, it seems that that might not be the case.

 

[td97]

Northern are aware of the short train, long platform issue at Moses Gate. Current 4 car trains are a performance issue on the line, particularly 4-car 156 formations (92m) with doors at each platform extreme end.

Cllr Fielding said that the train often stops at the wrong place on the platform at Moses Gate Station and that often guards have to manually pull levers to open doors, causing further delays.

In response, Northern regional director Craig Harrop said that the Bolton corridor was known to be “very busy”, with delays often caused by harsh weather conditions and overhead power failures.

He also said that the 7.19am service in particular was affected by a “long train, short platform” situation at Moses Gate.

But he told the committee that improvements could be on the way.

New trains pledged for Bolton line that 'has never, ever been on time'

New trains have been pledged for a Bolton line that have “never, ever been on time” in recent months.

www.theboltonnews.co.uk

 

[Greybeard33]

Northern are aware of the short train, long platform issue at Moses Gate. Current 4 car trains are a performance issue on the line, particularly 4-car 156 formations (92m) with doors at each platform extreme end.

New trains pledged for Bolton line that 'has never, ever been on time'

New trains have been pledged for a Bolton line that have “never, ever been on time” in recent months.

www.theboltonnews.co.uk

The Moses Gate platforms are only 85m according to the SA. Ok for a 80m 769 or 2.150 formation, but marginal for a 86m 150+156 and definitely local door only for a 92m 2.156.

The Bolton News story refers specifically to the 0719 from Moses Gate, which, like the 0819, is an off pattern call by a Clitheroe to Rochdale service (which does not stop at Farnworth or Kearsley). I believe these are booked as 150+156 formations. The Southport to Stalybridge service, which normally calls at all three stations, can, when not short formed, be any of 769, 2.150 or 150+156. Possibly occasionally 2.156, although I think this is less common.

That story does not mention any possibility of platform lengthening, with Northern suggesting the issue will only be mitigated by the introduction of new trains (presumably with SDO) between 2029 and 2040!