How to deal with a TOC that won't engage with you? - Platform alterations at Leyland station

[Moonshot]

Reduce the service to 2 per hour.....this is more than sufficient for the amount of passengers here. Ideally it will be the Liverpool service which is removed as a stop as that would improve that service as far as timekeeping goes. I am aware of plans for one of the airport services to be re directed into Victoria. The path that this releases through Castlefield corridor is going to a Bradford/ airport service apparently

 

[AutoUnder]

Reduce the service to 2 per hour.....this is more than sufficient for the amount of passengers here. Ideally it will be the Liverpool service which is removed as a stop as that would improve that service as far as timekeeping goes. I am aware of plans for one of the airport services to be re directed into Victoria. The path that this releases through Castlefield corridor is going to a Bradford/ airport service apparently

So have no direct Liverpool service from Leyland at all?

 

[Moonshot]

So have no direct Liverpool service from Leyland at all?

Yes. I will guess that it will happen as well ( judging by the conversations internally). Will be some rationalisation of services before too long.

 

[AutoUnder]

Yes. I will guess that it will happen as well ( judging by the conversations internally). Will be some rationalisation of services before too long.

Oh wow! I would be very much against that if it is officially proposed

 

[Moonshot]

Oh wow! I would be very much against that if it is officially proposed

Unfortunately your protest vote won't make a scrap of difference if it does actually happen.

 

[AutoUnder]

Unfortunately your protest vote won't make a scrap of difference if it does actually happen.

True but it would go down like a lead balloon with our MP and the council. They aren't so easy to sweep to one side

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Monday at 19:15 ==

Right so my MP has received a response from Northern:

Thank you for your email on behalf of your constituent AutoUnder regarding late notice platform changes at Leyland station and request for this information to be displayed earlier on the Customer Information Screens (Customer Information System) at the station.

I would like to give you some background information on the CIS (Customer Information System) in use at Northern, which I hope will go some way to address the complexity we are dealing with and show you that this is indeed already in hand to be addressed.

The supplier of the CIS is a private company called Ketech and it is Ketech who manage the software and intellectual rights of the system. Northern operate the system under licence and Ketech delivers to Northerns functionality specification. There are over 400 different stations connected to the system, and the system must process thousands of train movements every minute, from a variety of different signalling systems from modern to virtually no real time information (from semaphore systems on some lines). Leyland sits somewhere in the middle for this. The data in the CIS is shared with downstream systems like National Rail Enquiries and the Rail Development Group mainframe storage called ‘Darwin’. It is therefore vital that when changes are made for improvements they are tested thoroughly and installed in a way that groups software update packages together, to avoid costly testing scenarios being repeated and introducing errors into other systems.

We take our responsibilities to our customer charter very seriously and for the past four years have been renewing the CIS display estate at all our stations with new improved displays capable of providing more and enhanced information moving forward. We have introduced new technology to advise customers of disruption ahead of their journey, even though their train might be currently on time. We have provided the exact location of the service when trains are delayed as well as enhanced alternative travel information following cancellations and additional Delay Repay information, to name just a few.

We have acknowledged to both interested parties in Leyland, that we feel we can improve the situation for them and thanked them for their theories. Ketech have expressed a wish to move to a new system which can be cloud based, and a brand-new operating system has been developed for this, which includes a change to the way announcements are triggered and improves the situation for Leyland.

Northern are visiting Ketech next week to test and comment on the new system. The Ketech contract is in the process of extension negotiations as it is due to end in July 2025. Until this is completed, we can’t give Ketech the final clearance to start swapping over to the new system. We have however, already instructed them that if their contract is retained, Leyland will be the first station to go ‘live’. This will likely be late next month (July 2025) at the earliest but may slip into early August. As it is the first location to be amended, please be aware that Leyland will therefore also have the greatest risk should anything go wrong and require fixing/amendment. The handling and operation of the new system is very different to the current one therefore, there are over 70 members of the staff at both Control Centres in York and Manchester and at principal stations to re-train so this will not be a fast role out for all 400+ stations, but as stated Leyland will be first.

It does however give us the opportunity to start providing additional software changes including showing carriage loading etc by the end of the year. I hope this answers your constituents’ concerns. I regret I am not at liberty to share core data information from Ketech as we do not own intellectual properties.

This is a perfect response and was exactly the kind of response I was hoping for. It just begs the question, why could they not have told me this in the first place? It is such a shame really as it would've avoided all this aggravation on both sides. Clearly one area which large companies like this need to improve is communication with their customers. It is now clear that something was being done but how are you supposed to know if they don't feed this back to you?

It's cool that Leyland has been chosen for the first location to have this new KeTech CIS. It'll be interesting to see it in operation

 

[Horizon22]

True but it would go down like a lead balloon with our MP and the council. They aren't so easy to sweep to one side

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Monday at 19:15 ==

Right so my MP has received a response from Northern:

This is a perfect response and was exactly the kind of response I was hoping for. It just begs the question, why could they not have told me this in the first place? It is such a shame really as it would've avoided all this aggravation on both sides. Clearly one area which large companies like this need to improve is communication with their customers. It is now clear that something was being done but how are you supposed to know if they don't feed this back to you?

It's cool that Leyland has been chosen for the first location to have this new KeTech CIS. It'll be interesting to see it in operation

It's a good response, but I note it doesn't really say anything about platform changes and short-notice alterations which I believe will still be there other than the way "announcements are triggered". I note that "principal stations" will be rolled out which is probably those that already have local CIS control but again doesn't state that Leyland will additionally become one of these.

A cloud-based system isn't anything that radical; Worldline (who run the CIS software for a lot of TOCs) did a similar thing last year.

 

[AutoUnder]

It's a good response, but I note it doesn't really say anything about platform changes and short-notice alterations which I believe will still be there other than the way "announcements are triggered".

That is true but I am optimistic that the fix will be implemented, mainly because Leyland has been selected as the first location. We'll just have to see

 

[43066]

True but it would go down like a lead balloon with our MP and the council. They aren't so easy to sweep to one side

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Monday at 19:15 ==

Right so my MP has received a response from Northern:

This is a perfect response and was exactly the kind of response I was hoping for. It just begs the question, why could they not have told me this in the first place? It is such a shame really as it would've avoided all this aggravation on both sides. Clearly one area which large companies like this need to improve is communication with their customers. It is now clear that something was being done but how are you supposed to know if they don't feed this back to you?

It's cool that Leyland has been chosen for the first location to have this new KeTech CIS. It'll be interesting to see it in operation

I have to agree with @Horizon22. The response doesn’t actually state that the fix you’re looking for will be implemented.

 

[AutoUnder]

I have to agree with @Horizon22. The response doesn’t actually state that the fix you’re looking for will be implemented.

No it doesn't but I doubt chasing them now for clear response would achieve anything. I'll wait and see what happens after the update

 

[scrapy]

Unfortunately your protest vote won't make a scrap of difference if it does actually happen.

Do you have any evidence of a proposal to remove the Liverpool service from Leyland? I've certainly never heard of any such proposal nor I believe is there any concrete plan to remove the two trains per hour to the airport from Leyland.

 

[jon0844]

I probably should've made it more clear that I did produce a proof of concept program for my final year university project that would send you a push notification if a platform alteration was going to occur, using timetable data from RTT and the TD data from Network Rail's open data feed, looking at the berths I have already highlighed. In the couple of months I had it running for, I had no false positive at all and succesfully notified me of alterations on numerous occasions. I did get quite a lot of false negatives but that was my fault as I wasn't familiar with the method that Network Rail used to interface with the feeds and I wasn't able to get a stable connection with it within the time constraints I had. Also the last berths before Leyland for Preston bound services do give adequate notice and services have to slow down when joining the WCML at Euxton Junction. The only berth that provides limited notice is the one on the fast line for Manchester bound services but it is still a significant improvement in my opinion.

Of course, it has become apparent now that Northern will only take so much notice of me. The discussion on here has been good to get some other views on this. I will wait for my MPs response but then I'll probably wait for the CIS upgrade later this year before trying to take any further action.

I wonder if you should approach the likes of the Rail Delivery Group or Worldline (who manage a lot of the CIS systems for TOCs all over the UK) to see if they might be interested in investing in a way to pull the data from Network Rail that will show a route setting, which can then be considered as sufficient to change the displayed platform (doing the necessary 'This is a platform alteration' messages ahead of time).

Obviously this relies on the data being available from NWR and may require signalling upgrades, but anywhere it can be done I'd say it probably should be. If a route is taken back and reset, the system can still see that and change accordingly.

There will clearly be a cost to doing this, and that's why I think it's perhaps too much to ask a TOC to do. It is something either for the RDG, DfT or the company that manages the system so as to be able to offer the feature to everyone.

 

[John R]

True but it would go down like a lead balloon with our MP and the council. They aren't so easy to sweep to one side

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Monday at 19:15 ==

Right so my MP has received a response from Northern:

This is a perfect response and was exactly the kind of response I was hoping for. It just begs the question, why could they not have told me this in the first place?

Because businesses will typically not want to invest large amounts of management time dealing with random members of the public who come to them with problems, a good idea, or something else. It’s just not practical or cost effective for them to do so. That’s not just the railway, but any business of size with tens of thousands of customers.

However, if an MP gets involved, then that does raise the stakes, as clearly they hold more clout, and so businesses will be more inclined to invest the time required, if only because saying “I haven’t got the time to reply to you properly” is not really acceptable to an MP, and rightly so.

Sorry, but that’s just a fact of life.

 

[londonmidland]

For a short while, Leyland was installed with Wordline CIS (back when Northern provided them at their North West based stations, before replacing them with KeTech). Were short notice platform alterations an issue back then?

 

[PLY2AYS]

One would hope, under renationalisation and vertical integration, the communication and contract email ‘pingpong’ that was received, would be put to bed and more action taken more easily.

 

[35B]

One would hope, under renationalisation and vertical integration, the communication and contract email ‘pingpong’ that was received, would be put to bed and more action taken more easily.

Hope springs eternal. In reality, organisational boundaries will continue to exist and integration will take time (probably years) to deliver.

 

[mpthomson]

Because businesses will typically not want to invest large amounts of management time dealing with random members of the public who come to them with problems, a good idea, or something else. It’s just not practical or cost effective for them to do so. That’s not just the railway, but any business of size with tens of thousands of customers.

However, if an MP gets involved, then that does raise the stakes, as clearly they hold more clout, and so businesses will be more inclined to invest the time required, if only because saying “I haven’t got the time to reply to you properly” is not really acceptable to an MP, and rightly so.

Sorry, but that’s just a fact of life.

IF (and I stress the word 'IF') the comments earlier about the OPs contact with Northern are correct then it's likely that they'd consider him a 'vexatious complainant/ correspondent', meaning thet he'd be dealt with outside the normal complaints process or simply ignored. My organsiation has a similar way of working for people that contact us either excessively or repetitively.

We can (and will) respond to MPs when needed to.

 

[londonmidland]

One station which really needs to sort out its announcements is Birmingham New Street.

No regular announcements at all here, with platforms 10, 11 & 12 receiving ZERO automated announcements for platform alterations, as the system is broken. Network Rail are aware of this fault, however it has been an issue for several years now, with there being no timescale as to when this will be fixed.

 

[AutoUnder]

I wonder if you should approach the likes of the Rail Delivery Group or Worldline (who manage a lot of the CIS systems for TOCs all over the UK) to see if they might be interested in investing in a way to pull the data from Network Rail that will show a route setting, which can then be considered as sufficient to change the displayed platform (doing the necessary 'This is a platform alteration' messages ahead of time).

Obviously this relies on the data being available from NWR and may require signalling upgrades, but anywhere it can be done I'd say it probably should be. If a route is taken back and reset, the system can still see that and change accordingly.

There will clearly be a cost to doing this, and that's why I think it's perhaps too much to ask a TOC to do. It is something either for the RDG, DfT or the company that manages the system so as to be able to offer the feature to everyone.

This is already a feature. Signalling maps like Traksy can already pull route data and some CISs use that data to determine a platform alteration but it will only work for areas that have S-Class signalling data available. The Preston signalling area (which Leyland is located within) doesn't.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Wednesday at 21:12 ==

Because businesses will typically not want to invest large amounts of management time dealing with random members of the public who come to them with problems, a good idea, or something else. It’s just not practical or cost effective for them to do so. That’s not just the railway, but any business of size with tens of thousands of customers.

However, if an MP gets involved, then that does raise the stakes, as clearly they hold more clout, and so businesses will be more inclined to invest the time required, if only because saying “I haven’t got the time to reply to you properly” is not really acceptable to an MP, and rightly so.

Sorry, but that’s just a fact of life.

I'm not surprised in all honesty. Doing this has really demonstrated that what should happen and what does happen are two completely different things

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Wednesday at 21:15 ==

For a short while, Leyland was installed with Wordline CIS (back when Northern provided them at their North West based stations, before replacing them with KeTech). Were short notice platform alterations an issue back then?

Yes they were. Leyland had Worldline installed back in 2011 but it only had departure screens. Even then the screens wouldn't change until the train arrived but at least you didn't have conflicting announcements. Anne was only installed back in 2018 but that was only because the PA system was being renewed and Worldline was what Leyland was still using at the time. KeTech was installed in 2019, replacing Anne with Celia

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Wednesday at 21:16 ==

One station which really needs to sort out its announcements is Birmingham New Street.

No regular announcements at all here, with platforms 10, 11 & 12 receiving ZERO automated announcements for platform alterations, as the system is broken. Network Rail are aware of this fault, however it has been an issue for several years now, with there being no timescale as to when this will be fixed.

I thought they turned the announcements off on purpose because they were producing excessive noise pollution? Does seem like a strange reason for right in the centre of Birmingham though

 

[londonmidland]

I thought they turned the announcements off on purpose because they were producing excessive noise pollution? Does seem like a strange reason for right in the centre of Birmingham though

Platform alterations, delays and cancellations are still played here automatically expect on platforms 10, 11 and 12, due to a fault with the system. There's been no rush to fix this issue as its been faulty for years now.

The whole silencing thing whilst several diesel engines idle and extractor fans blare away is completely daft. It just reduces accessible information to passengers.

 

[AutoUnder]

Platform alterations, delays and cancellations are still played here automatically expect on platforms 10, 11 and 12, due to a fault with the system. There's been no rush to fix this issue as its been faulty for years now.

That is very odd, especially since it's a PAVA that is also used for evacuation announcements. I assume manual and emergency announcements still work on those platforms?

 

[londonmidland]

That is very odd, especially since it's a PAVA that is also used for evacuation announcements. I assume manual and emergency announcements still work on those platforms?

That’s correct. It’s just Wordline announcements which don’t work/play on these specific platforms for whatever reason.