How to force Avanti to train their staff?

[Zoner]

This is just a vent/rant, really, but Euston is the only London station where I routinely meet staff who won't accept that tickets from 'boundary zone 4' to e.g. Milton Keynes Central are valid on non-stop services.
It's such a consistent view among Avanti staff that their training materials must be incorrect. Today the lady who sold me a ticket at the counter told me I would only be able to use it on the London Northwestern train, and told me she'd worked there ten years and ordinarily is in the revenue team!
Every time this happens I make a complaint to Avanti, but apart from apologising they don't do anything to give their staff the proper information.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Historically, Boundary Zone tickets were only valid on TOCs with two stops in the Zones, as otherwise they'd get no Travelcard revenue. But that's not been the case for a long time. I wonder if some still think that perhaps?

 

[Starmill]

Today the lady who sold me a ticket at the counter told me I would only be able to use it on the London Northwestern train, and told me she'd worked there ten years and ordinarily is in the revenue team!

I always find if people say how long they've been doing a job as a reason to support their correctness, it's almost always an indication that they're actually wrong. They're blindly relying on their own "knowledge" and not actually keeping themselves abreast of the facts. Someone who was actually right would know the detail, and would therefore rely on that first and foremost to make their point.

 

[Zoner]

Historically, Boundary Zone tickets were only valid on TOCs with two stops in the Zones, as otherwise they'd get no Travelcard revenue. But that's not been the case for a long time. I wonder if some still think that perhaps?

If I remember right from last time I got worked up about this it's a good twenty years since they changed the rules - certainly it's a lot longer than Avanti have been running the line!

I'm convinced that this is a company line, not just a few outdated individuals. It's too consistent that it's Avanti staff who get this wrong.

I always find if people say how long they've been doing a job as a reason to support their correctness, it's almost always an indication that they're actually wrong. They're blindly relying on their own "knowledge" and not actually keeping themselves abreast of the facts. Someone who was actually right would know the detail, and would therefore rely on that first and foremost to make their point.

I sometimes think that once they've decided to say "no" to a ticket they are trained never to back down. No member of staff has ever said to me "oops sorry I was wrong about that" despite me being able to give chapter and verse on the validity of these tickets.

I've had some very strange responses from Avanti staff in the past, including telling me that the National Rail t&c's don't apply to Avanti! That time, I got the sense they had no clue and were just making it up as we went along.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Historically, Boundary Zone tickets were only valid on TOCs with two stops in the Zones, as otherwise they'd get no Travelcard revenue. But that's not been the case for a long time.

Is there a definitive reference source as to how things should be nowadays? (May or may not necessarily be in the public domain).

 

[Class800]

This is just a vent/rant, really, but Euston is the only London station where I routinely meet staff who won't accept that tickets from 'boundary zone 4' to e.g. Milton Keynes Central are valid on non-stop services.
It's such a consistent view among Avanti staff that their training materials must be incorrect. Today the lady who sold me a ticket at the counter told me I would only be able to use it on the London Northwestern train, and told me she'd worked there ten years and ordinarily is in the revenue team!
Every time this happens I make a complaint to Avanti, but apart from apologising they don't do anything to give their staff the proper information.

There's no way really, pick your battles I'd say.

 

[AdamWW]

Every time this happens I make a complaint to Avanti, but apart from apologising they don't do anything to give their staff the proper information.

I suspect that is also in the training materials.

Apologise, promise to pass the complaint on to the correct department, and do bugger all.

It'll never happen but it might concentrate minds if TOCs were issued with a penalty every time their staff made an "honest mistake".

On a more constructive note, if you have an email from Avanti agreeing that the barrier staff were incorrect, can you show that to them next time?

Or do they just ignore any attempt along those lines?

 

[wilbers]

Could get the refusal in writing, and then claim delay repay from Avanti - surely if that happened enough something would change.

 

[Zoner]

Is there a definitive reference source as to how things should be nowadays? (May or may not necessarily be in the public domain).

It's rule 14.3 in the National Rail terms and conditions.

There's also this clear explanation on the National Rail website (scroll down) here

Unfortunately I've had staff read this paragraph on the NR website and tell me "yeah, but you see that's National Rail, and we're Avanti, so it's different"

Could get the refusal in writing, and then claim delay repay from Avanti - surely if that happened enough something would change.

I did get compensation when I was previously refused travel, though it was a completely ball aching process that nearly got as far as the ombudsman.

 

[akm]

Every time this happens I make a complaint to Avanti, but apart from apologising they don't do anything to give their staff the proper information.

When they apologise, do they concede that the staff on the ground were wrong, or do they just apologise that you were delayed and throw compensation at you?

 

[Zoner]

When they apologise, do they concede that the staff on the ground were wrong, or do they just apologise that you were delayed and throw compensation at you?

They pretty much just parrot their boilerplate response:

"We take all comments about our staff seriously. It's usually our staff who generate the most praise for our service. It's their responsibility to look after you. And to give you the right info. So, when they fall below what we and you expect, then we want to know. I'm going to pass your comments on to the staff and their manager, so they can talk through the points that you've raised."

Last time I complained they initially told me that the staff had been correct and my ticket combination was not valid. Then when I pointed them to the rules again they claimed that rules 14.2 and 14.3 are in conflict with one another (they are not) and they will need to carry out an internal investigation - and, of course, told me they would not report back on the outcome of that investigation.

 

[Vespa]

By keeping complaints in house there's no incentive to change.

Being vocal on social media including film clips of the incidents would certainly put it out there, it would need somebody high up connected with the railway industry to see it and decide to take action.

 

[sheff1]

I always find if people say how long they've been doing a job as a reason to support their correctness, it's almost always an indication that they're actually wrong.

Always in my experience.

To answer the OP's question, the only way is for an effective Rail Regulator to penalise TOCs whose staff routinely try to (or indeed do) overcharge people, with the peanlties increasing if the TOC does not take effective action to train their staff appropriately. Of course the chances of getting an effective Rail Regulator are zero under the current regime so the real answer is "it's not possible".

 

[redreni]

During industrial action I was once refused passage through the gateline at Euston while trying to board the Avanti train 1 hour before the one I had booked, despite showing them a screenshot of a tweet from Avanti confirming that I could do this. I missed a football match in Barrow-in-Furness as a direct result.

Completely immune to rational argument, the lot of them.