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How to launch a bus company

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GrogSmuggler

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Hi Everyone.

Please take it with a pinch of salt.

In your opinion how much cashflow do you think a startup operation should have?

Really wanted to leave this question broad and open to not influence any answers. I was hoping this thread might just provide a bit of light hearted back and forth thought development. Appreciate it's a little strange someone coming on and delivering it as their first post, but would love your personal perspectives.

Index

Approximate operating costs

click here for post by E-Rail​
 
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Busaholic

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More than you could possibly need, and then more again. Sorry if that sounds negative but bus operation is NOT something you can enter into lightly, even if you only want to use one reconditioned bus on a weekly return journey from Little Snoring to Great Snoring for market day. Best to win the Lottery jackpot and see this as a way of dispensing with the part of it you don't really need for everyday living. Long-established operators, bus and coach, are falling by the wayside, even in areas where they've been household names for decades and have a good reputation. The bureaucracy is staggering now!
 

GrogSmuggler

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Morning Busaholic

Thanks for your reply, but I would still be keen to hear an actual answer.

One appreciates the numbers involved with operation, and the red tape realm of ball ache that we reside in. It's more about peoples individual perspective that I'm interested in hearing out. I hope you don't find my response provocative, it's not intended; but please feel free to throw your thoughts out there if you have any.
 

Observer

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GrogSmuggler

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Even though you have the money to cover the vehicle itself for any maintenance required and proof of competency, it doesn't really connect directly with how much money should be in the business to ensure a healthy start-up period.

For example.

You could have a fleet of twenty one vehicles, with the initial higher installment, and subsequent smaller amounts all in the bank account as proof of funds. However, does that necessarily mean that that bus company, then has enough cashflow in the business to survive successfully? Yes, it depends on trading conditions, competence, competition and so many other variables; but how many months of capital to survive should a start-up operator (of any size) have in the bank, should they receive absolutely zero patronage month after month?

How long should a new operator be able to cover its operations for, should they garner any revenue?

Would you say 1, 3, 6, 12, 18 months cash flow to cover operations, is sufficient?
or simply the amount outlined by the traffic commissioner as proof of funds?
 

Robertj21a

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Even though you have the money to cover the vehicle itself for any maintenance required and proof of competency, it doesn't really connect directly with how much money should be in the business to ensure a healthy start-up period.

For example.

You could have a fleet of twenty one vehicles, with the initial higher installment, and subsequent smaller amounts all in the bank account as proof of funds. However, does that necessarily mean that that bus company, then has enough cashflow in the business to survive successfully? Yes, it depends on trading conditions, competence, competition and so many other variables; but how many months of capital to survive should a start-up operator (of any size) have in the bank, should they receive absolutely zero patronage month after month?

How long should a new operator be able to cover its operations for, should they garner any revenue?

Would you say 1, 3, 6, 12, 18 months cash flow to cover operations, is sufficient?
or simply the amount outlined by the traffic commissioner as proof of funds?

For a start they have to have enough funds to cover giving the 56 day notice required to withdraw any service. So, even if they operate for just 7 days they have to fund it for at least 63 days.
 

Dentonian

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For a start they have to have enough funds to cover giving the 56 day notice required to withdraw any service. So, even if they operate for just 7 days they have to fund it for at least 63 days.
It's 42 days notice now!
 

Christophe

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What's the old saying - "The only way to make a million pounds with a bus/coach company is to start with 2..."
 

PeterC

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So basically you need a Euromillions tripple (or more) rollover and then you can run a bus company until it is gone. :)

Back in the 60s the potted bus company histories in the Ian Allen ABC books often seemed to run along the lines of men learning to drive in WW1 then converting an army surplus lorry after their demob and expanding from their. Not an acceptable entry point in the 21st century.

I do wonder how you would break into the trade these days. Expectations for private hire are much higher now so that probably isn't the route that it was in, say, the early 50s.
 

E-Rail

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As others have said, the simple answer is these days, don't but as someone who did set up from scratch 15 years ago, here's a guide to what is involved:

Financial Standing: For 2018/2019, it's around £7600 for the first disc and around £4000 for every other disc after that. These funds have to be readily available to be drawn upon and have to be in your back account for about 6 weeks before your O Licence application goes in. It used to be 3 months but it has been reduced recently.

Operating Centre: This needs to be arranged before you submit your application. Costs vary between parts of the UK and what sort of set up you want. As a minimum, you will need access to water and electricity, preferably on a secure site with CCTV. As a start up, you will be better to negotiate 'parking' rather than a yard lease and just pay on a weekly or monthly basis. That way, if all goes wrong, you can walk away without massive lease commitments to pay for years to come. Expect to pay around £30-40 a week for parking per bus, more for undercover.

Insurance: The killer and what is killing most operators off now. As an example, we stuck to rail replacement, private hires and shuttles etc. No express work, no home to school and no stage carriage. Fully comp comes in about £2800 a year per bus. On top of that, you'll need Employers and Public Liability cover for around £10 million which is around £300 a year per bus. If you venture into stage carriage (ie bus routes or anything that is registered) expect your fully comp cover to increase to anything up to £7000 a year per bus. The personal injury claims are responsible for this as the higher risks involved in this type of operation are now colossal.

Road Tax: Single Decker around £330 a year, decker about £550 a year. Lower if you have RPC vehicles (which is highly unlikely as a start up as these basically mean Euro 6)

Vehicles: However much you want to spend. Example: 2005 Volvo B7TL single doored and with a test will set you back around £12-14k for a decent one. Repaint around £2000. Retrim around £3000. Hanover LED destination displays are about £2000 new or about £700 on ebay. Brand new Euro 6 deckers are around £210,000. Volvo B7TL will return around 8-9 mpg with a 5 speed ZF, around 7-8 mpg with a 4 speed Voith and don't entertain a 3 speed Voith. Roughly it costs about £300 a tank for around 270 miles approx.

Maintenance: Always budget at least £500 a month per bus plus the cost of the actual inspections by your provider. They'll be around £80-160 depending on whether you are using a local garage or a main dealer. Allow £1500 for each MOT. Tyres, if owned are about £400 each for decent Michelin or £200 for Chinese imports that also do the job but check the ratings if you plan on using the motorways regularly as some tyre ratings aren't suitable for motorway work.

Wages: Drivers - depending on which part of the UK but in the south and south east (outside London), if you want to keep insurance premiums down and quality levels up, then you will need to be paying around the £12 an hour mark as a minimum, more for call out work. Remember to add at least 15% employers costs to that for NI, payroll costs, holidays, sick pay, pension contributions etc.

Overheads: On top of all that, you'll have the costs associated with any business. Broadband, phones, website, advertising, printing and stationary plus lots of bank charges for your overdrafts, account fees, credit card interest, HP or loan interest. Then your accounts and tax return costs for accountants. It really is endless.....

Hope that gives you an insight and might also help explain why more operators are bailing out than ever!

Having said that, if you are dead set on setting up, I would never say, don't do it. Just plan, plan and plan even more. Make sure you have a niche to fill and keep everything as tight as possible.
 

Dentonian

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Only if the council agree that they received your application, otherwise it's something like 70. I wonder how many withdrawal notices councils are going to lose now!
As I understand it, ops have to advise relevant LAs of their intentions 70 days before the change. LAs then have 4 weeks to decide on tendered intervention or discuss things like bus station slots. Obviously if it's a new service only slots would be an issue but hopefully that will have been raised before the 70 days. It's all a bit unclear because the DfT dropped this on ALL parties on 25th April.....
 

GrogSmuggler

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As others have said, the simple answer is these days, don't but as someone who did set up from scratch 15 years ago, here's a guide to what is involved:

[...]​

Having said that, if you are dead set on setting up, I would never say, don't do it. Just plan, plan and plan even more. Make sure you have a niche to fill and keep everything as tight as possible.

Thanks @E-Rail,

In terms of operations I think our base cost for projections was approximately £35 per running hour, and adjusting for the numbers you provided took us up to £38.41 per hour; or £37.81 on a contract hire maintenance agreement.
 

High Dyke

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When you mentioned about launching a bus company I thought you meant this: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-44250992
A stolen bus was found abandoned in the sea - about 40 miles away from where it was taken.

The single-decker was found with the engine still running in a metre of water next to the pier in Cleethorpes, Lincolnshire.

Lifeboat crews helped to tow the vehicle - which was marked as "not in service" - from the sea.

Police are investigating how the bus, which went missing from Skegness, ended up in Cleethorpes.

"No-one was in the vehicle, which has now been recovered," a police spokesperson added.
 

plarailfan

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I have worked for a couple of small / independent bus firms and both of them struggled to survive, while neither had the resources to operate Sunday services.
Sadly, one of them had a low cost depot and maintenance base, which was in a crime ridden area and we lost hundreds of litres of fuel on a regular basis, fire extinguishers were let off, emergency hammers used to break windows along with a host of other anti social things !
Other local bus companies suddenly flooded the routes with their own vehicles, so other than providing the happy memories of driving ancient Leyland nationals.......
I think the only way you can stay around, is to have a mega Euromillions win behind you, so that the other local companies can watch while you start a brand new route(s) of your own in the knowledge you are in it for the long term..... Who knows, they might even want you on their management team after a while !
 

Busaholic

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This is a serious suggestion; get hold of every copy of Coach and Bus Week for the last few years (old copies should be available for a pittance) and focus on the detailed looks at specific operators, large, medium and (particularly) small, because these can give great insights into what type of work is best to aim for, what is best avoided, etc. Having said that, what works for one operator can be anathema for another, but you get a good 'feel' about what makes a bus company tick, and stand out from its peers. No-one here has mentioned the great god - competition. If you're planning to compete, directly or indirectly, with one of the big groups do not assume that all is fair in love and war. Make no mistake, they won't like it and are unlikely to take it lying down, unless you're very fortunate. If they don't operate in the area you're proposing, then you've got to ask why not? Do they know something you don't, or have they burned their fingers there in the past? That's not to say an independent can't make a success of something a big group's failed with, of course, but there could still be underlying jealousies.

Finally, if you're planning stage carriage find the local council's policy on refunding pass use, how quickly it's done, what documentation is required etc etc. It's no exaggeration to say that several operators, including well-established ones, have gone under as a direct result of unresolved issues around this.
 
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So basically you need a Euromillions tripple (or more) rollover and then you can run a bus company until it is gone. :)

Back in the 60s the potted bus company histories in the Ian Allen ABC books often seemed to run along the lines of men learning to drive in WW1 then converting an army surplus lorry after their demob and expanding from their. Not an acceptable entry point in the 21st century.

I do wonder how you would break into the trade these days. Expectations for private hire are much higher now so that probably isn't the route that it was in, say, the early 50s.
School bus contracts seem to be the way in esp where accessible vehicles not mandated
 

GrogSmuggler

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This is a serious suggestion; [...]

Thanks Busaholic,

We subscribe to a couple of trade magazines and keep apprised with most of the big 5 sleep worthy bulletins. Personally I believe that more often than not operators start small and humble with secure, long-term contracts before branching out into service work. However, I do feel if they don't branch out before the end of tender renewal, then there's often a chance they could loose everything; as we see happen only too well.

Currently where we're looking, there are a couple of local authorities issuing significant tenders.

Sadly, we haven't got a TM in order to progress. The nature of our business proposal is a bit of progession on the traditional model. For that reason we're not hurrying to pick the first Transport Manager we can find, or looking to hire an external TM - but I wish we did.

We need someone who's more concerned with the why? Someone who's driven by the ethics, inspired by the ambition and more impassioned by the objective than their pay packet. It has to be the right person that's in it for the long haul, as there's an equitable share in the company.

With the tenders I just wish that we could go ahead and even register our interest at this point, as it's a combination of solid school contracts and local services. Otherwise it's a missed opportunity for another 5+ years.

In terms of actual service work and competition, I won't lie to you, the market does have an existing monopoly. And in respect of any potential naivety, one is familiar with fully encrusted bus wars and dirty tactics; including any previous attempts to tackle this competitive spot some decade or two ago. Our research has gone back till the early 1900's, back up to present day government proposals, policy contexts and ongoing consultations.

You do raise an excellent point for bus pass refunds, and it is something that one needs to get around to. Until now I've assumed a 90+ day turnaround for any payments on Concessions.

Our focus on Contract Hire should (hopefully) allow us to focus on customer service, driver happiness and marketing. However, a mutual friends ran an independent service and went under after a few years - their awards for customer service, innovation, brass balls and pioneering only got them so far. At the end of the day any service work has got to come back round to some hard algorithms, customer loyalty and research.

I would be really interested in any feedback people might have when it comes to working out route density and viability; besides standing in a bus stop, soaking wet and tallying off PAX; or handing out questionnaires.
 

D60

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An alternative is to forget all of that, leave all of that to others...

And instead set up a website and app, offer cheap fares to millenials, say you will only run when you have enough bookings, pay someone else to worry about providing a vehicle that fits the bill, persuade someone to provide you with unspecified millions in venture capital funding to launch all of this, and then operate it at a loss for an unspecified period..

This is the model adopted by Sn-ap.. (but may be outside of the scope and intention of the original enquiry!)
 

MotCO

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One issue only addressed indirectly is the type of vehicle to use. Should you use new for image and impact, or a cheaper older model to help test and build up the market? Do you buy (via a loan) or rent? A similar issue is livery - do you use the previous owner's colours, dealer white or your own colours / logos or
vinyls?

It probably depends on what sort of statement you want to make to intending passengers and your competitors.
 

Dentonian

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Thanks Busaholic,

We need someone who's more concerned with the why? Someone who's driven by the ethics, inspired by the ambition and more impassioned by the objective than their pay packet. It has to be the right person that's in it for the long haul, as there's an equitable share in the company.

In terms of actual service work and competition, I won't lie to you, the market does have an existing monopoly. And in respect of any potential naivety, one is familiar with fully encrusted bus wars and dirty tactics; including any previous attempts to tackle this competitive spot some decade or two ago. Our research has gone back till the early 1900's, back up to present day government proposals, policy contexts and ongoing consultations.


I would be really interested in any feedback people might have when it comes to working out route density and viability; besides standing in a bus stop, soaking wet and tallying off PAX; or handing out questionnaires.

Good luck with finding someone driven by ethics not greed - in any industry, never mind the bus industry.

If you think about it, most bus services are/have been a "monopoly" for most of the last 32 years - never mind Pre De-reg. There is usually a very simple reason for this; the market cannot sustain internal competition. In reality, it isn't a monopoly anyway, as every bus service is in competition with the private car and taxi. And increasingly, in many areas it is up against rail and/or bicycle as well. Further, it is invariably at a disadvantage politically (capital "P" and small "p") compared to all these modes. As such you do well to research both past and future operating environments, but don't forget its not just national policy but local politics and demographics as well. I note (probably, for good reason), you don't say where in the country you intend operating, but I suspect if you are in northern England, Scotland or Wales, you will have far less of a chance of succeeding than in the South or South East. You need to be in an area which already has high car ownership, high disposable income and/or a demographic where personal debt is regarded as normal. Similarly, you want an area with development/investment plans and a liklihood of increased population ie. a Growth Area.
It is obviously a good idea to "hedge your bets" with a diverse portfolio of subsidised/commercial work, with subsidised making up the majority of your early revenue. You mention School contracts; As you know, non-DDA buses can only be used on "closed" contracts - which even that is a mystery to me, as surely it is illegal for schools to reject pupils with disabilities!. Certainly, such contracts are virtually non-existant in some areas, so you might find the market very limited. More generally, I don't the economics of leasing, but obviously it is more geared to contracted operations with fixed terms. But if any of your work is commercial, I would not run it with buses in someone else's livery. If it is run with the same buses as contracts, then on balance, all white might be the best option. Otherwise, a fairly simple, practical livery - but one that is't similar to any other company in the area. As for the vehicles, I certainly wouldn't worry about age or emissions - you get no brownie points for running low or zero emission buses; certainly not from the media. With my passenger hat on; I don't care how old the bus is, provided it works and the seat cushions/backs are less than say, 8 years old and leg room is decent. Oh! and NO adverts/promos of ANY kind on the windows please!
 

Dai Corner

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Enough to buy a well-run, profitable company where the owner has decided to retire.

I think that’s what I’d do if I wanted to get into the business (which I don’t).
 

Cesarcollie

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Enough to buy a well-run, profitable company where the owner has decided to retire.

I think that’s what I’d do if I wanted to get into the business (which I don’t).

Well yes but if it's well run and profitable you might need quite a lot of money to buy it......,,
 

DD12

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As others have said, the simple answer is these days, don't but as someone who did set up from scratch 15 years ago, here's a guide to what is involved: ……


…… if you are dead set on setting up, I would never say, don't do it. Just plan, plan and plan even more. Make sure you have a niche to fill and keep everything as tight as possible.

That's a really great and useful lot of information, thanks very much for your time, and for sharing your hard-won experience with us, E-Rail.

…. and thanks also to everyone above, - this is a really good thread !
 
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Mwanesh

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If you are serious start a taxi firm.You can then branch out to stage carriage later.
 

Dentonian

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If you are serious start a taxi firm.You can then branch out to stage carriage later.

It would certainly get you into the habit of parking on bus stops! But I doubt you'd get away with doing "180s" and illegal left/right turns once you graduate to buses.
 

plarailfan

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I thought one of the independent bus firms I worked for, had a lot of potential, as they managed to gain some local contracts and I would have bought the company if I had a lottery win, but sadly, that never happened and eventually the firm ceased trading, in part due to some expensive engine problems on a few vehicles. But there were other factors as well. However, to this day, I'm sure they could actually have survived.
Incidentally, this book about Stagecoach, by christian Wolmar makes an interesting read http://www.christianwolmar.co.uk/bookshelf/stagecoach/
 

Dentonian

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I thought one of the independent bus firms I worked for, had a lot of potential, as they managed to gain some local contracts and I would have bought the company if I had a lottery win, but sadly, that never happened and eventually the firm ceased trading, in part due to some expensive engine problems on a few vehicles. But there were other factors as well. However, to this day, I'm sure they could actually have survived.
Incidentally, this book about Stagecoach, by christian Wolmar makes an interesting read http://www.christianwolmar.co.uk/bookshelf/stagecoach/

Does the 2012 version differ from the original 1995 (ish) version?
 

DavidGrain

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Enough to buy a well-run, profitable company where the owner has decided to retire.

I think that’s what I’d do if I wanted to get into the business (which I don’t).

This was going to be my advice but Dai has beaten me to it. The problem is that the better the existing company the more it is going to cost.
 
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