Don't we have the same issue now though? A double decker bus with one passenger on (and that's all you would get at some quiet times late at night) is not very efficient.
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How to solve the "last mile" problem in traffic
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Of course, not that we have many double deckers around here (they have Optare Solos on quieter routes) - but that's still just one bus, with one driver, and not loads of these cars, mini-vans, buses and everything else all parked up ready for one or a hundred people turning up unannounced.
If you have to book them in advance, what good will that be as a replacement to a bus? They'll cost a lot more.
You haven't even considered the criminal element too. If you have these things driving around packed out with incredible technology, then they're going to be stolen and broken down for scrap. It would take minutes to work out where the GPS receiver and transmission equipment is and disable it, given there'll probably be a reference design that they all follow.
That is unless everyone who gets in has to provide suitable ID, but of course - what happens when you get in to your vehicle that has been damaged by the person before you and suddenly your card is being debited a huge sum of money in damages?
Need I continue?!
If you have to book them in advance, what good will that be as a replacement to a bus? They'll cost a lot more.
You haven't even considered the criminal element too. If you have these things driving around packed out with incredible technology, then they're going to be stolen and broken down for scrap. It would take minutes to work out where the GPS receiver and transmission equipment is and disable it, given there'll probably be a reference design that they all follow.
That is unless everyone who gets in has to provide suitable ID, but of course - what happens when you get in to your vehicle that has been damaged by the person before you and suddenly your card is being debited a huge sum of money in damages?
Need I continue?!
tbtc
Veteran Member
Its a shame that this interesting discussion about practical ways of dealing with a real problem has become diverted into a discussion about (what might as well be) science fiction...
Forward thinking is needed though. The current system may well not be sustainable in the longer term but transport as it is now is never going to match the convenience of the private car, other ideas are needed. It was the lack of forward thinking back in the 1960s when the car was seen as the future that has resulted in a lack of public transport in some areas.
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It's not hijacking, as I say the current system isn't likely to be sustainable long term so we need to think of something different.
Yes we need to think of other solutions, but your idea is not practical.
The Heathrow pod idea now works, after many problems, but I can't see this being a replacement to all transport in the world - even though it can certainly be rolled out to other similar environments, like airports, business parks and anywhere with this planned in from the outset.
The Heathrow pod idea now works, after many problems, but I can't see this being a replacement to all transport in the world - even though it can certainly be rolled out to other similar environments, like airports, business parks and anywhere with this planned in from the outset.
tbtc
Veteran Member
...but driverless cars are not the solution to this particular problem.
Getting people the 100 yards/ half mile (or whatever distance) from their house to the nearest bus/tram/train stop at the start of the day, and getting them back home at night is a genuine problem.
The balance between "simple frequent services on main roads" and "individual services tailored for local demand" is one which has changed a few times since deregulation of buses.
However nice a driverless car sounded on Tomorrow's World, that's not the solution to this problem and really needs to be in a different thread.
Well driverless cars may be closer to reality than people think but regardless of that, what about using this type of system but with a driver? People on the train phone a number or use the internet to request a journey and when they arrive there is a bus waiting that will take everyone that lives in an area to their door.
Since we got our bus back to working 0635-2335, with an Optare Solo (but sometimes a bigger bus, depending on what Uno has available), usage has increased loads - especially the late night buses. This is helped by a modified route that passes by a University campus, as well as a shopping centre that, at night, has a cinema, bars and restaurants.
Now sometimes the bus will run fairly, or almost totally, empty in the day and some evenings in the week, with its 30 minute frequency (20 mins in the peak, but these are usually pretty busy), but everyone involved in getting it to run all day (local councillors, the county council and concerned passengers) acknowledged that if it wasn't regular all day, the people who help fill the buses in the morning, afternoon and evenings (after a night out) would probably stop using it completely.
Every 30 minutes isn't quite turn up and go, but it's almost there. If it was every hour, I am sure people would be put off, and if they ever decide to curtail it again in the evening or weekends, it will probably suffer heavily. I hope common sense is being applied within HCC, as they've not just axed services completely - but, wherever possible, merged routes that may result in longer journeys, but they keep a decent frequency - and busier buses when they do run.
Over the last 8 years of commuting, the cost of a taxi home after midnight has gone up by loads. Obviously taxi drivers need to earn a living, but perhaps another solution is to subsidise taxi travel from stations/town centres to certain areas not served by buses.
This could be monitored by GPS equipment and other tech to avoid abuse by drivers.
Now sometimes the bus will run fairly, or almost totally, empty in the day and some evenings in the week, with its 30 minute frequency (20 mins in the peak, but these are usually pretty busy), but everyone involved in getting it to run all day (local councillors, the county council and concerned passengers) acknowledged that if it wasn't regular all day, the people who help fill the buses in the morning, afternoon and evenings (after a night out) would probably stop using it completely.
Every 30 minutes isn't quite turn up and go, but it's almost there. If it was every hour, I am sure people would be put off, and if they ever decide to curtail it again in the evening or weekends, it will probably suffer heavily. I hope common sense is being applied within HCC, as they've not just axed services completely - but, wherever possible, merged routes that may result in longer journeys, but they keep a decent frequency - and busier buses when they do run.
Over the last 8 years of commuting, the cost of a taxi home after midnight has gone up by loads. Obviously taxi drivers need to earn a living, but perhaps another solution is to subsidise taxi travel from stations/town centres to certain areas not served by buses.
This could be monitored by GPS equipment and other tech to avoid abuse by drivers.
I'm not sure about that. Can't say I like the idea of waiting 30 minutes for a bus late at night and even less so in poor weather.
starrymarkb
Established Member
Isn't that something like the Taxibus scheme that Stagecoach trialed in a few places without success.
The bus is timed to go 8 minutes after a train from London calls at the station, but the problem is that it isn't made to wait in case the train is delayed and drivers have been known to leave early. Sadly we don't really do integrated transport that well.
London doesn't really have that problem as many trains are every few minutes, and buses are also of a similar frequency so you don't really notice the fact that things aren't run in sync. The thing is, I didn't want to live in London anymore, as I valued some more space, so when there are less people - you can't have buses moving around fresh air every 3-4 minutes 24 hours a day!
If you don't want to wait, you pay for a taxi - which costs me about 10 x the cost of the bus. Obviously the taxi is less of a premium if there's a group of you, and it's quicker too. Sometimes a little too quick, as the drivers race around even if the weather isn't good.
I won't cycle again, as my bike was nicked from the station and I know from staff that bike thefts are still a huge problem there (despite CCTV). I will sometimes walk, but at night I was always slightly apprehensive, but now it's not even an option as the street lights go off from about 2350.
London doesn't really have that problem as many trains are every few minutes, and buses are also of a similar frequency so you don't really notice the fact that things aren't run in sync. The thing is, I didn't want to live in London anymore, as I valued some more space, so when there are less people - you can't have buses moving around fresh air every 3-4 minutes 24 hours a day!
If you don't want to wait, you pay for a taxi - which costs me about 10 x the cost of the bus. Obviously the taxi is less of a premium if there's a group of you, and it's quicker too. Sometimes a little too quick, as the drivers race around even if the weather isn't good.
I won't cycle again, as my bike was nicked from the station and I know from staff that bike thefts are still a huge problem there (despite CCTV). I will sometimes walk, but at night I was always slightly apprehensive, but now it's not even an option as the street lights go off from about 2350.
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Not 24 hours a day but if it gets to the point where most people can't afford a car then I would have thought public transport with London frequencies would be justified in many areas.
People will likely continue to buy cars, just like a top-end smartphone and other luxuries like Sky, however little money they have. They'll likely cut back on other things instead.
I drive a car that attracts top-whack road tax and drinks fuel, and that is my choice. If I couldn't afford this, there are loads of far more economical cars I could get instead - reducing my insurance, servicing and parts bills at the same time.
When do you think people will no longer be able to buy a car? They may just own smaller, more fuel efficient, cars - not have nothing at all. The industry will change what they build too, and modern technology (and safety equipment) will get cheaper.
I drive a car that attracts top-whack road tax and drinks fuel, and that is my choice. If I couldn't afford this, there are loads of far more economical cars I could get instead - reducing my insurance, servicing and parts bills at the same time.
When do you think people will no longer be able to buy a car? They may just own smaller, more fuel efficient, cars - not have nothing at all. The industry will change what they build too, and modern technology (and safety equipment) will get cheaper.
With the current economic climate quite a few people are losing their jobs and are having to take anything that is going even if that is on the minimum wage. It's not going to be very easy to pay the costs of a car if you are only on the minimum wage.
starrymarkb
Established Member
It may not be easy, but it may still be cheaper then moving nearer to a min wage job with the associated rent increases.
After all what are the chances of any mass public transport improvment taking place in a short time.
Interestingly people are driving less as the govt is moaning that the fuel duty take is down (despite being at a record high) - a bit like complaining that the Environmental Air Passenger Duty is discouraging flying so they are not earning as much as they want
After all what are the chances of any mass public transport improvment taking place in a short time.
Interestingly people are driving less as the govt is moaning that the fuel duty take is down (despite being at a record high) - a bit like complaining that the Environmental Air Passenger Duty is discouraging flying so they are not earning as much as they want
If petrol gets to £10 a litre or GPS road pricing at £1.50 per mile is introduced then there may be little alternative than to improve public transport. Don't forget the true cost of running a car. I did an online insurance quote recently for someone that was 17 (I'm not that age) for a 1.25 Fiesta and it came back as almost £6000 and this is in a low risk insurance area.
starrymarkb
Established Member
But if you want public transport improved don't nag us, lobby the govenment.
Plus there is always the Moped option...
Plus there is always the Moped option...
To get back on track, the question was: what can be done to favour use of public transport rather than the private car for the "last mile" from station to home.
My thoughts:
Firstly, whilst car ownership is so high that alternatives are often considered somewhat eccentric, it will be hard for a significant shift to occur. For most car owners it's just automatic to get in your car to go somewhere, even if it's walkable or there is a good bus service. Have you ever noticed that what seems like a long journey in a car really isn't so far when you come to walk it?
Secondly, for local public transport to improve it needs to stop being the poor relation of the railways. Buses are just as valuable and should be regulated as a public service - meaning centralised planning, ticketing and advertising. To compete with the car they need to run more frequently with lower fares - consider that the perceived price of a short distance car journey is effectively nil, except parking charges. Smartcards should be used throughout (proper smartcards like Oyster, not the "electronic purse" type. The point is to speed up the service).
IT systems can definitely help too, but only help convince those already considering alternatives to the car.
- Journey planning: I find travelline remarkably good for journey planning, but no-one IME has heard of it. Plus, it looks absolutely terrible - I'm sure many people see it and assume it's out of date or some amateur project.
- Next stop information: a massive confidence booster, and I'm sure it has drawn many converts to the bus in London. There are certainly journeys where I would be lost without it in Reading.
- Clear information: all bus stops should have clear timetable information, local area maps and route maps (like London).
Finally, a particular bugbear of mine: pedestrians have as much right to the roads as drivers, so roads should not be built such that pedestrians cannot safely cross or walk along the street. Witness a trip to Basingstoke recently - we needed to get to a showroom around a mile from the station - hardly a long distance. This necessitated walking most of the distance on the verges of a busy road - such bizarre behaviour that one driver stopped to offer help, assuming that our car must have broken down! In the countryside it can be even worse since there is often no verge or street lighting.
...Oh, and forbid gyms from having car parks
My thoughts:
Firstly, whilst car ownership is so high that alternatives are often considered somewhat eccentric, it will be hard for a significant shift to occur. For most car owners it's just automatic to get in your car to go somewhere, even if it's walkable or there is a good bus service. Have you ever noticed that what seems like a long journey in a car really isn't so far when you come to walk it?
Secondly, for local public transport to improve it needs to stop being the poor relation of the railways. Buses are just as valuable and should be regulated as a public service - meaning centralised planning, ticketing and advertising. To compete with the car they need to run more frequently with lower fares - consider that the perceived price of a short distance car journey is effectively nil, except parking charges. Smartcards should be used throughout (proper smartcards like Oyster, not the "electronic purse" type. The point is to speed up the service).
IT systems can definitely help too, but only help convince those already considering alternatives to the car.
- Journey planning: I find travelline remarkably good for journey planning, but no-one IME has heard of it. Plus, it looks absolutely terrible - I'm sure many people see it and assume it's out of date or some amateur project.
- Next stop information: a massive confidence booster, and I'm sure it has drawn many converts to the bus in London. There are certainly journeys where I would be lost without it in Reading.
- Clear information: all bus stops should have clear timetable information, local area maps and route maps (like London).
Finally, a particular bugbear of mine: pedestrians have as much right to the roads as drivers, so roads should not be built such that pedestrians cannot safely cross or walk along the street. Witness a trip to Basingstoke recently - we needed to get to a showroom around a mile from the station - hardly a long distance. This necessitated walking most of the distance on the verges of a busy road - such bizarre behaviour that one driver stopped to offer help, assuming that our car must have broken down! In the countryside it can be even worse since there is often no verge or street lighting.
...Oh, and forbid gyms from having car parks
The whole idea of this thread is how to resolve the last mile issue. If you think we should just take it up with the government then there's little point to the thread. The fact is that without public transport improvements the issue is not going to be resolved.
And? I am insured on a 2.5 litre turbocharged car and pay under £500.
I pay the same whether I drive 1 mile or 10,000 (yes, I can limit the mileage but the difference is minimal) so I'd probably drive a lot more to get what I would perceive as more value, even if it means more fuel is consumed (and more wear and tear).
A car might cost a lot, but if you can save on taxis and peak rate trains and buses, you may still be better off. In many cases, the car might be the only option unless you want to spend ages in transit (like crossing the country where rail routes go north/south and make you go into a town and back out).
We don't have GPS road charging now, and it may be a while before we're paying £10 a litre - and I'm sure by that time, we'll have cars that are even more fuel efficient so it's all relative.
That may well be the case but if it's unaffordable for new drivers then eventually it will be too expensive for most people even if it remains affordable for you as with time there will be more new drivers.
It's not a new thing that insurance is more expensive for younger drivers, and on certain vehicles (which are perceived as being more likely to have claims made).
There are a number of factors besides the post code and the age of the driver, like the security rating of the vehicle (for theft) and the cost of repairing the vehicle (parts etc).
There are a number of factors besides the post code and the age of the driver, like the security rating of the vehicle (for theft) and the cost of repairing the vehicle (parts etc).
Why should a 1.25 Fiesta cost almost £6000 to insure in a low risk area though unless the insurance company don't want to insure it. It may have always been expensive but these days it's so expensive that it's simply not affordable for some new drivers. That said it could be a good thing as some dangerous drivers would not be on the road as it's too expensive for them.
I think you answered your own question. Different underwriters have different risks, so the ones that aren't interested in a particular age range/car will usually set a stupid price.
It isn't the case that all 17 year olds will have to pay £6k to get insurance, so it's a bit misleading.
I repeat again; insurance has always been a problem for young motorists - I really don't think you can suggest it's a new problem. For the record, I was paying over £3,000 for the first year of insurance back on an Escort RS Cosworth, group 20U, back in 1997 (I was 23 then, so had already got myself 5 years no-claims). The U being bad, I might add!
I was earning quite a bit of money, but it was still ridiculous! With hindsight, I was stupid to pay that (and indeed to pay what I did on running the car) but you only live once, right?
It isn't the case that all 17 year olds will have to pay £6k to get insurance, so it's a bit misleading.
I repeat again; insurance has always been a problem for young motorists - I really don't think you can suggest it's a new problem. For the record, I was paying over £3,000 for the first year of insurance back on an Escort RS Cosworth, group 20U, back in 1997 (I was 23 then, so had already got myself 5 years no-claims). The U being bad, I might add!
I was earning quite a bit of money, but it was still ridiculous! With hindsight, I was stupid to pay that (and indeed to pay what I did on running the car) but you only live once, right?
I have done done quotes with more than one company online and I don't remember ever getting it below £3000 and even that is going to be unaffodable for many 17 year olds. The obvious answer to that is don't drive and that is why there needs to be improvements to public transport and the last mile" is a key area where this improvement is needed.
If you/he got a £3k quote, why say it cost £6k? Sure,£ 3000 is still a lot (even if it's 50% off what you originally said), but it all depends on the car, the driver, occupation, location etc. If the 1.25ltr Fiesta was, say, a Zetec model or an ST - or a limited edition with body kit - then that could make a huge difference even if the performance is still quite low.
When I was paying £3k on the Cossie, don't assume everyone else was. When I was hunting for quotes, I was getting offers for insurance that were over £10k - from companies that usually insure older drivers (and many more would not quote at all).
You said these searches were for someone else.. what do you pay? I believe you've said before that you're also quite young.
When I was paying £3k on the Cossie, don't assume everyone else was. When I was hunting for quotes, I was getting offers for insurance that were over £10k - from companies that usually insure older drivers (and many more would not quote at all).
You said these searches were for someone else.. what do you pay? I believe you've said before that you're also quite young.
The 3000 quote was for a new driver over 25. When I change the age to 17 just to see if there would be a difference it was almost 6000.
Here's a tip; find something better to do than just putting in random details into an insurance policy checker - there are far too many parameters and you're not going to come up with something that is relevant to anyone else.
Let's get back to the topic of conversation in this thread?
Let's get back to the topic of conversation in this thread?
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