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How to solve transport issues in Dublin?

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Taunton

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Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/travelling-in-ireland.223165/

Lanyon Place was always a tip and in an obscure Belfast back street, it really should be closed and everything sent to Great Victoria Street.

Dublin Metrolink, the north-south automated Metro, seems to be a bit unfortunate, designed as ever in a vacuum. I always felt Dublin was a bit small to have two types of rapid transit, Dart and Luas, and now they are proposing a third, quite separate and different technology to the other two. It also avoids both Heuston and Connolly stations/Busaras country bus terminal, so does nothing for transport integration.
 
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berneyarms

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Lanyon Place was always a tip and in an obscure Belfast back street, it really should be closed and everything sent to Great Victoria Street.

Dublin Metrolink, the north-south automated Metro, seems to be a bit unfortunate, designed as ever in a vacuum. I always felt Dublin was a bit small to have two types of rapid transit, Dart and Luas, and now they are proposing a third, quite separate and different technology to the other two. It also avoids both Heuston and Connolly stations/Busaras country bus terminal, so does nothing for transport integration.

The Enterprise is planned to switch to Great Victoria Street when the new transport hub is completed there.

Metrolink, if it is ever built, would most certainly offer transport integration, contrary to what you suggest. It would link with DART at Glasnevin for both the Maynooth and Kildare lines, and at Tara Street for the Coastal route, and with the city's redesigned bus services at O'Connell Street, Tara Street and St. Stephen's Green, along with LUAS at Charlemont.

The principal purpose of Metrolink is to offer a high capacity rail service from Swords to the city, along with serving the entire corridor along the route, including Dublin Airport, Dublin City University and the Mater Hospital.

As for your comment about Dublin and different transport modes, perhaps if you lived here, and experienced the traffic congestion that the city faces, you'd understand why it is very much needed.
 
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berneyarms

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I dont see LUAS as rapid transit. It is to be honest a slowish tram.
Dublin, im my view, has with its suburbs are rather poor rail system to get you north to south and east to west. Other European cities of a million people or so are much better.
Compare it with Cologne. Dart style S-Bahn and a combination of Tram/Metro type system.
Martin
LUAS is only "rapid" on the section of the Green Line that used to be the Harcourt Street railway line. Even that has a road crossing at Dunville Avenue, where sadly, when LUAS was first built, the bridge and embankment that was in place was removed. This has caused no end of problems for developing plans for Metrolink (South).

Dublin badly needs the Metrolink to Swords, and also in south and southwest Dublin where bus speeds are lowest. The expansion of DART to Maynooth, M3 Parkway, and Hazelhatch, and resignalling of the lines is also long overdue - see www.dartplus.ie for info.
 

Taunton

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As for your comment about Dublin and different transport modes, perhaps if you lived here, and experienced the traffic congestion that the city faces, you'd understand why it is very much needed.
The technology chosen for Metrolink is not particularly connected with traffic congestion levels (nor with living there). But its route north-south does not align well with a city whose longer central urban axis is east-west, along the Liffey, and which in generic flow terms as north-south just duplicates the Dart. Connectivity with the Dart at the more obscure inner stations does not compensate for not serving the main Dublin transport hubs for rail and coach travel across the country.

Regarding existing Dublin congestion, I had the misfortune just before Lockdown to take the Airlink Express from Heuston to the airport, having arrived by rail. A more convoluted routing would be hard to plan (and I've been in the planning of a few around the world in my time). Driven ludicrously slowly, with all the regular city buses overtaking, it looped tediously all the way up O'Connell Street to the top, and beyond, then all the way back down again. It wasn't traffic congestion, all of which passed us whenever they got the chance, it was just sticking to an excessively slow timetable. Next time I'll take the Luas from Heuston to Connolly and get the airport bus there.

The desperate desire to choose a different, unconnected technology for each and every line is normally a sign of politicians getting sold by the manufacturers of such systems, and getting the once-over on their transport professionals.
 
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berneyarms

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The technology chosen for Metrolink is not particularly connected with traffic congestion levels (nor with living there). But its route north-south does not align well with a city whose longer central urban axis is east-west, along the Liffey, and which in generic flow terms as north-south just duplicates the Dart. Connectivity with the Dart at the more obscure inner stations does not compensate for not serving the main Dublin transport hubs for rail and coach travel across the country.

Regarding existing Dublin congestion, I had the misfortune just before Lockdown to take the Airlink Express from Heuston to the airport, having arrived by rail. A more convoluted routing would be hard to plan (and I've been in the planning of a few around the world in my time). Driven ludicrously slowly, with all the regular city buses overtaking, it looped tediously all the way up O'Connell Street to the top, and beyond, then all the way back down again. It wasn't traffic congestion, all of which passed us whenever they got the chance, it was just sticking to an excessively slow timetable. Next time I'll take the Luas from Heuston to Connolly and get the airport bus there.

The desperate desire to choose a different, unconnected technology for each and every line is normally a sign of politicians getting sold by the manufacturers of such systems, and getting the once-over on their transport professionals.
With respect, you're making the fundamental mistake of assuming that the main purpose of Metrolink is to serve the Airport. It isn't.

The principal purpose is to provide rapid high capacity transport within the city, and to link Swords and the points along that corridor with the city centre. The main flow of people through Dublin city centre on public transport is north/south, and not east/west. Furthermore, Metrolink goes nowhere near the DART line on the northside of the city. This is all about providing rapid transport links for the city and it is a totally different corridor to the DART. No one living in Glasnevin, Santry, Ballymun or Swords would ever use the DART to commute - it's miles away.

Also, Tara Street Station is hardly "obscure", it is the busiest station on the entire rail network. Many intercity buses go from near Tara Street as well. Glasnevin will be a new interchange station as part of the DART+ programme.

Dublin traffic congestion is horrific, and we badly need this and the DART+ projects to be delivered.

Metrolink has been developed by public transport professionals at the National Transport Authority and Transport Infrastructure Ireland, and has not been developed by politicians - that claim is nonsense I'm afraid.

Regarding the airport buses, the Airlink bus was a commercial bus service operated by Dublin Bus that took that route to serve hotels en route and maximise loadings. It has ceased operation permanently post-Covid. There is a new commercial bus service that links Heuston with the Airport that now operates directly along the Quays and through the Port Tunnel.
 

Taunton

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No, I am well aware of the numbers on transit systems that serve airports, that the actual airport travellers are well lower than the local passengers, even on substantial operations like the Piccadilly Line in London. They just form a useful supplement, and get a disproportionate amount of the publicity. They are commonly more convenient to the staff than to air passengers.

Tara Street being the busiest Dart station is just indicative of the overall poor alignment, being as it is on the wrong side of the river for the bulk of the central commerce. It would usefully be supplemented by a station at say Abbey Street, more central and which it rolls over non stop. Yes, it was an appropriate use of an existing railway alignment at the start, but is one of many examples around that just because you say, or name, a station as the "City Centre", doesn't mean that it is actually there!

I'm glad that ludicrous Airlink bus (although it also used The Quays and the Port Tunnel) has been replaced by something more appropriate. Notably hardly anyone got on it until getting to Connolly, when it filled up with those presumably in the know.
 

berneyarms

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No, I am well aware of the numbers on transit systems that serve airports, that the actual airport travellers are well lower than the local passengers, even on substantial operations like the Piccadilly Line in London. They just form a useful supplement, and get a disproportionate amount of the publicity. They are commonly more convenient to the staff than to air passengers.

Tara Street being the busiest Dart station is just indicative of the overall poor alignment, being as it is on the wrong side of the river for the bulk of the central commerce. It would usefully be supplemented by a station at say Abbey Street, more central and which it rolls over non stop. Yes, it was an appropriate use of an existing railway alignment at the start, but is one of many examples around that just because you say, or name, a station as the "City Centre", doesn't mean that it is actually there!

I'm glad that ludicrous Airlink bus (although it also used The Quays and the Port Tunnel) has been replaced by something more appropriate. Notably hardly anyone got on it until getting to Connolly, when it filled up with those presumably in the know.
Sorry, but are we reduced to posting daft strawman arguments that the DART line is in the wrong place now? It is where it is, and that is not going to change. So let's at least keep the discussion realistic.

There remain long term plans for a DART Underground tunnel connecting the northern line through the south city centre and linking with Heuston and onwards towards Hazelhatch. In the meantime, DART+ is progressing through the planning process.

As for Tara Street's location, there is no need for yet another DART station on the north side of the loop line bridge - Connolly is only a 5 minute walk away from Abbey Street, as indeed is Tara Street. Tara Street Station is fine for the city centre, which, despite what you seem to think, very much straddles both sides of the river. The station serves the immediate south docklands area, and is a short walk from Trinity College, Temple Bar and O'Connell Street. When the station and the area around Tara Street are redeveloped, there will be a direct walkway towards College Street from opposite the new exit which will improve access further to the south central.

Regarding Metrolink, I'd also point out that the public transport lobby groups here support the proposed route. The route design has gone through two non-statutory consultations, and, subject to government approval, is about to go to Railway Order stage to An Bórd Pleanála, the statutory planning authority.

I think that you should probably stop digging holes for yourself here - trying to tell someone who lives in Dublin and works in the city centre (i.e. me!) that they don't know where the city centre is located is a tad over the top.
 
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craigybagel

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As a proud former resident of Dublin's Northside it pains me somewhat to have to point out that the suggestion that Tara Street is on the wrong side of the river is pretty ridiculous, and shows a complete lack of understanding as to how the city actually works. My pain is however eased by the laughter brought about by the suggestion the station is somehow obscure.....
 
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Taunton

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Well we'll just leave the Dublin transport planners to get on with it.

The Luas was built to "standard gauge" 4'8½", whereas all the rest of the Irish rail network, including the Dart, is to 5'3". Even the old Dublin United Tramways used Irish gauge. It doubtless seemed a good idea to someone until it was realised all the Irish rail maintenance contractors' kit had long been bought for 5'3", so was completely incompatible for track work. As Metrolink wants to portray another face of independence, what gauge should they go for? 5'0" Russian gauge seems a good compromise. Unless of course some politician one night gets talked into it being a Monorail.
 

craigybagel

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Well we'll just leave the Dublin transport planners to get on with it.

The Luas was built to "standard gauge" 4'8½", whereas all the rest of the Irish rail network, including the Dart, is to 5'3". Even the old Dublin United Tramways used Irish gauge. It doubtless seemed a good idea to someone until it was realised all the Irish rail maintenance contractors' kit had long been bought for 5'3", so was completely incompatible for track work. As Metrolink wants to portray another face of independence, what gauge should they go for? 5'0" Russian gauge seems a good compromise. Unless of course some politician one night gets talked into it being a Monorail.
Luas going for standard guage means they could buy pretty much any tram they wanted off the shelf. For a brand new system that was never likely to have any physical connections with the existing network it was a very sensible solution, and I'm sure that the expense of buying a new set of maintenance kit was more than offset by the savings through not having to commission a fleet of specialist rolling stock unique to Ireland.

Doubtless the same situation will occur with Metrolink as well.
 

berneyarms

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Well we'll just leave the Dublin transport planners to get on with it.

The Luas was built to "standard gauge" 4'8½", whereas all the rest of the Irish rail network, including the Dart, is to 5'3". Even the old Dublin United Tramways used Irish gauge. It doubtless seemed a good idea to someone until it was realised all the Irish rail maintenance contractors' kit had long been bought for 5'3", so was completely incompatible for track work. As Metrolink wants to portray another face of independence, what gauge should they go for? 5'0" Russian gauge seems a good compromise. Unless of course some politician one night gets talked into it being a Monorail.
What does it matter that LUAS is a different gauge to Iarnród Éireann?

They are never going to need to interact.

Metrolink will be standard gauge also.

Quite frankly, every post you’ve made in this and the original thread has consisted of you moaning about everything under the sun that you perceive as an issue, while showing a complete lack of understanding of the geography of Dublin and the public transport issues that the city faces.
 

Purple Orange

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Sitting here in Manchester, looking across to Dublin, I am quite interested in observing how the city evolves it’s rail network as I see a lot of similarities in both cities. Very congested; mainline rail termini that are not properly connected; a few other city centre stations that can form the basis of a useful metro network. In that final respect, I think Dublin does a better job given it has the DART network, which is something that several of the Manchester lines could do with having too.

So I’m wondering, are there any plans to expand the DART network on to other lines coming in to Dublin? Lines with a 6 tph metro service level would be a very good S-bahn-esq system to have. Can the DART network be expanded?
 

craigybagel

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Sitting here in Manchester, looking across to Dublin, I am quite interested in observing how the city evolves it’s rail network as I see a lot of similarities in both cities. Very congested; mainline rail termini that are not properly connected; a few other city centre stations that can form the basis of a useful metro network. In that final respect, I think Dublin does a better job given it has the DART network, which is something that several of the Manchester lines could do with having too.

So I’m wondering, are there any plans to expand the DART network on to other lines coming in to Dublin? Lines with a 6 tph metro service level would be a very good S-bahn-esq system to have. Can the DART network be expanded?
In short, yes

 

berneyarms

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That’s something I’d love to see implemented on my side of the water!

What frequency will the new lines have and will they be all-stop services?
They haven’t specified frequency yet but standard pattern should be every 10 minutes as per the current DART line.

At the moment it’s planned for them to be all stops as it’s a two track railway.
 

Purple Orange

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So in essence Dublin is creating a proper metro network from the infrastructure it already has. I can hope that Manchester takes note and learns from Dublin on this.
 

Wolfie

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So in essence Dublin is creating a proper metro network from the infrastructure it already has. I can hope that Manchester takes note and learns from Dublin on this.
Of course, Dublin does have the advantage of being both the country's capital and rail hub. There may be some limitations imposed on Manchester doing the same by the desire to maintain higher volumes of long distance connectivity. I agree though that there may well be lessons to be learned.
A disclosure: while l haven't been there for a little while my mum is from Swords and l have family there. I know just how awful the transport is currently.
 

berneyarms

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So in essence Dublin is creating a proper metro network from the infrastructure it already has. I can hope that Manchester takes note and learns from Dublin on this.
Well DART+ is heavy rail. It’s converting existing diesel services to electric.

Metrolink is light rail which is a completely new line.

Dublin is light years behind the likes of Manchester in terms of proper rail infrastructure.

There’s considerable doubt about the political will to spend large amounts of money on public transport infrastructure here.

When I see shovels in the ground I’ll share your optimism.
 
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Purple Orange

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Well DART+ is heavy rail. It’s converting existing diesel services to electric.

Metrolink is light rail which is a completely new line.

Dublin is light years behind the likes of Manchester in terms of proper rail infrastructure.

There’s considerable doubt about the political will to spend large amounts of money on public transport infrastructure here.

When I see shovels in the ground I’ll share your optimism.
Oh I’m not talking about light rail or tram routes. I’m comparing the local heavy rail networks and Dublin wins hands down on that score if it is implementing a metro service on its lines. Manchester’s heavy rail network is shockingly bad.
 

berneyarms

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Oh I’m not talking about light rail or tram routes. I’m comparing the local heavy rail networks and Dublin wins hands down on that score if it is implementing a metro service on its lines. Manchester’s heavy rail network is shockingly bad.
To be fair, there are already intensive services at peak times on all of the rail lines into Dublin. This project, if it actually is implemented, will see each line electrified and re-signalled to further enhance that.

But again, it's subject to the heavy caveat, of funding being forthcoming and the political will to do it.
 
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craigybagel

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Bear in mind, when the original Howth - Bray DART line was conceived in the 1970s it was only meant to be the first phase in a city wide electrified heavy rail network. It's approaching it's 40th anniversary, and in that time all that's been achieved is the relatively short extensions to Malahide and Greystones. There are good reasons to be skeptical where Irish public transport is concerned.
 

berneyarms

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A consultation on the updated Greater Dublin Area Transport Strategy to 2042 was launched yesterday by the National Transport Authority.

And boy is it an unambitious document, with no new rail lines of any sort to be delivered before 2031. DART Underground shelved to post-2042.

A total let down.


On a more positive note, the second public consultation on DART+ SouthWest to Hazelhatch was launched this morning by Irish Rail.


Full info at www.dartplus.ie
 

berneyarms

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What sort of frequencies are realistically expected on the 'new' DART+ lines?
10 minutes basic frequency on the core sections (Docklands-Clonsilla (then either to Maynooth or M3 Parkway) and Hazelhatch-Islandbridge Junction (then either to Heuston or Grand Canal Dock).

Frequency could increase at peak times to every 5 minutes (which would be very likely on DART+ West).
 

Purple Orange

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10 minutes basic frequency on the core sections (Docklands-Clonsilla (then either to Maynooth or M3 Parkway) and Hazelhatch-Islandbridge Junction (then either to Heuston or Grand Canal Dock).

Frequency could increase at peak times to every 5 minutes (which would be very likely on DART+ West).
And how many tph on the national network would be running alongside it? A 6 tph metro is pretty damn good.
 

Dr Day

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In general Ireland benefits from having a relatively limited InterCity network, which enables capacity to be used on frequent all-stops type outer commuter services. Alas in GB many approaches to major cities are 'full' with longer distance regional trains making it more difficult to fit in a 'turn up and go' type frequency on a two-track network.

Ireland also took the decision to close rural heavy rail routes and invest in outer suburban routes and long distance coaches instead, with parallel investment bus priority and light rail/Metro to serve more inner commuter routes into Dublin. A national transport authority with a multi-modal remit makes these things much easier to deliver, but still subject to funding.
 

craigybagel

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In general Ireland benefits from having a relatively limited InterCity network, which enables capacity to be used on frequent all-stops type outer commuter services. Alas in GB many approaches to major cities are 'full' with longer distance regional trains making it more difficult to fit in a 'turn up and go' type frequency on a two-track network.

Ireland also took the decision to close rural heavy rail routes and invest in outer suburban routes and long distance coaches instead, with parallel investment bus priority and light rail/Metro to serve more inner commuter routes into Dublin. A national transport authority with a multi-modal remit makes these things much easier to deliver, but still subject to funding.
I'm not sure you can ever say a particular decision or plan was made. As far as the government is concerned, transport has always been developed in a very piecemeal way, with seemingly no long term plan (or if there is, it keeps changing).

And one of the big downsides of all of this is that journey times on the long distance services out of Connolly aren't terribly competitive.
 
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