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How was 1st class enforced in the days before on-train ticket checks?

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AY1975

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In the days when revenue protection was managed mainly by ticket barrier checks at stations, rather than by on-train checks (so probably until about the late 1970s or early '80s), how did BR (and its predecessors) ensure that all passengers travelling in 1st class had 1st class tickets? Or did they trust passengers to travel in the correct class of accommodation much more in those days?
 
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Bletchleyite

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In the days when revenue protection was managed mainly by ticket barrier checks at stations, rather than by on-train checks (so probably until about the late 1970s or early '80s), how did BR (and its predecessors) ensure that all passengers travelling in 1st class had 1st class tickets? Or did they trust passengers to travel in the correct class of accommodation much more in those days?

Other than in compartment stock, there were checks on board as well, weren't there?
 

Gloster

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A mixture of things: a generally more trusting attitude, random checks by guards or TTIs, and - worst of all - the threat of disapproval by genuine First Class ticket holders. Guards did come around at quite frequent intervals, particularly on long distance services (not always, but enough).
 

Bevan Price

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In the days when revenue protection was managed mainly by ticket barrier checks at stations, rather than by on-train checks (so probably until about the late 1970s or early '80s), how did BR (and its predecessors) ensure that all passengers travelling in 1st class had 1st class tickets? Or did they trust passengers to travel in the correct class of accommodation much more in those days?
Except on non-corridor stock, on-train ticket checks were common in the 1960s and 1950s.
 

randyrippley

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Tickets were checked on trains, and in some cases collected on-board after the last stop. It wasn't unknown for guards to deliberately collect tickets on crowded long distance trains so there was no way of telling which ticket had been purchased..........I saw this several times on the MML in the 1970s after the train had left Leicester and was running non-stop to St Pancras
 

DidcotDickie

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In the days when revenue protection was managed mainly by ticket barrier checks at stations, rather than by on-train checks (so probably until about the late 1970s or early '80s), how did BR (and its predecessors) ensure that all passengers travelling in 1st class had 1st class tickets? Or did they trust passengers to travel in the correct class of accommodation much more in those days?
On the class 302 EMUs used on the LT&S in their original layout, there were no on-train ticket checks. The units were originally non-corridor with a mix of six a side compartment seating and five a side saloons. Same applied to many of the GE units.
 

Taunton

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Until I think the 1970s main line guards didn't do "revenue duties", which were done by a separate grade of Travelling Ticket Inspector. These worked to a fixed "beat" on long distance services - the sole Liverpool to Plymouth day train I recollect was always inspected between Shrewsbury and Hereford. Anyone sat incorrectly in the Firsts was just surcharged (not unknown with standees in the seconds). On lesser services passengers in non-corridor First stock might be suddenly surprised by a collector at the window from a mid-journey platform. On Taunton-Minehead non-corridor steam stock, where First passengers were pretty unknown, I recall the First doors were kept locked unless someone could be seen trying them, when the guard would come forward, check tickets unless they knew them as a regular, and unlock (both sides, by leaning out of the opposite window).
 

Welshman

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Tickets were checked on trains, and in some cases collected on-board after the last stop. It wasn't unknown for guards to deliberately collect tickets on crowded long distance trains so there was no way of telling which ticket had been purchased..........I saw this several times on the MML in the 1970s after the train had left Leicester and was running non-stop to St Pancras
The same thing happened on trains into Kings Cross about the same time.
A non -stop journey from Grantham or Peterborough gave the guard time to collect all tickets, and then, as the train slowly drew-up to the buffer-stops at the Cross, he'd lean out of the window and give a clear wave to the staff on the barrier to say they could step down and open the gates wide.
 

randyrippley

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The same thing happened on trains into Kings Cross about the same time.
A non -stop journey from Grantham or Peterborough gave the guard time to collect all tickets, and then, as the train slowly drew-up to the buffer-stops at the Cross, he'd lean out of the window and give a clear wave to the staff on the barrier to say they could step down and open the gates wide
Great on a busy train......as soon as the tickets were collected there was a bee-line to first class
 

Gloster

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Great on a busy train......as soon as the tickets were collected there was a bee-line to first class
Probably not: most people are settled and can’t be bothered to move. A few might try it out or on, or just sit down anywhere when the buffet closes. (I presume the comment is partly humorous.)
 

Bletchleyite

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Probably not: most people are settled and can’t be bothered to move. A few might try it out or on, or just sit down anywhere when the buffet closes. (I presume the comment is partly humorous.)

It is (was) very common practice to declassify 1st on LM/LNR services just before they depart Euston if busy (often not *that* busy). You don't see people making a beeline for it, usually just people who were standing nearby. That said, when 1st is worse than Std :)
 

randyrippley

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Probably not: most people are settled and can’t be bothered to move. A few might try it out or on, or just sit down anywhere when the buffet closes. (I presume the comment is partly humorous.)
I said busy train.....i.e. standing room only
 
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