HS2 : how would you build it?

[camflyer]

Personally, I'd knock Euston down and start the station again. Make it a gateway to London fit for the 21st Century rather than something which looks like a 1970s provincial shopping arcade.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Personally, I'd knock Euston down and start the station again. Make is a gateway to London fit for the 21st Century rather than something which looks like a 1970s provincial shopping arcade.

What might be worth doing, and could well be achieved off the back of this 3 year delay, is to first build the HS2 part of Euston but connect the classic lines to it, then flatten the 1960s bit and rebuild that, ideally with perhaps 10-12 300m platforms rather than the present mix. Both obviously to the same design so once it was finished you wouldn't know it was in 2 bits - sort of like how New St was rebuilt!

I have a feeling this was part of the original plan at one point.

You might well be able to fund it by getting rid of the essentially disused parcels deck and putting office and residential development on top instead, perhaps including better access to the platforms i.e. several accesses midway instead of one end-on.

You couldn't just close it for a couple of years and flatten and rebuild. You might be able to get away with IC into OOC for a short period, but the commuter services carry as many people if not more, and far too great a volume for long term bustitution.

 

[The Planner]

You would need a complete redesign of the HS2 approach to do that and ironically the parcels deck is full of HS2/NR offices.

 

[popeter45]

Personally i would make the HS2 tracks horizontal low level to current tracks at Euston so a connection to HS1 could be made in the future

 

[Bald Rick]

What might be worth doing, and could well be achieved off the back of this 3 year delay, is to first build the HS2 part of Euston but connect the classic lines to it, then flatten the 1960s bit and rebuild that, ideally with perhaps 10-12 300m platforms rather than the present mix. Both obviously to the same design so once it was finished you wouldn't know it was in 2 bits - sort of like how New St was rebuilt!

I have a feeling this was part of the original plan at one point.

You might well be able to fund it by getting rid of the essentially disused parcels deck and putting office and residential development on top instead, perhaps including better access to the platforms i.e. several accesses midway instead of one end-on.

You couldn't just close it for a couple of years and flatten and rebuild. You might be able to get away with IC into OOC for a short period, but the commuter services carry as many people if not more, and far too great a volume for long term bustitution.

Won’t work, as the HS2 platforms are several metres lower than the current platforms. Also would be a lot more expensive!

Above site development is already in the plan, but is constrained by protected views from Primrose Hill and Parliament Hill.

 

[Bald Rick]

Personally i would make the HS2 tracks horizontal low level to current tracks at Euston so a connection to HS1 could be made in the future

Just not feasible, too much underground already.

 

[Bald Rick]

May I propose a rule for this thread*?

Given that the High Speed Rail (London - West Midlands) Act 2017 has been granted Royal Assent, and the HS2 Phase 2a (West Midlands - Crewe) Bill is in the Committee stages in the Lords (with only 30 petitioners, compared to 822 at the same stage for Phase 1), and thus very likely to receive Royal Assent in the coming months....

Can we only make suggestions about ‘how’ the line would be built, and not alternatives for routing. Because, basically, if the route is anywhere not included in the Act / Bill, then it’s not going to happen.

* I may be exceeding my brief as a poster here, so have reported myself to the mods just in case!

 

[Sceptre]

Restore the Meadowhall route, as it made much more sense than the changed route; restore passive protection for a HS1–HS2 link; and link HS2 to the Woodlesford line to allow Leeds to have through HS2 services (possibly also reopening Castleford–Garforth to take the Knottingley services off that line too). I'd also extend Crossrail to Ebbsfleet to allow people to get between the two lines without exiting the barriers.

 

[edwin_m]

Just to close out the Euston issue, the rebuilding of Euston is likely to be the "critical path" for the whole project - the suggestion it might only open to OOC initially tends to confirm that. So the delay to the project overall probably doesn't create any extra time to do other things at Euston - it's probably caused (at least in part) by Euston taking longer than originally thought.

I think I'm in favour of what the government now seems to be planning, to do phase 2a to Crewe at the same time as Phase 1. This will involve a rather awkward interim period when London-Manchester services all run via Wilmslow, but if you've done whatever is necessary to make that possible for a few years then it should still be possible for a few years more. That tends to add some credibility to Andy Burnham's idea of prioritizing the bits of Phase 2 that also deliver parts of NPR, and adding the southward link later. He is also suggesting that an underground HS station at Piccadilly with trains from the south entering from the west (so they can continue towards Leeds) would result in a shorter tunnel to the airport. I'm not sure if that would compensate for the extra cost of a large underground station though.

 

[ohgoditsjames]

The Meadowhall stop makes absolutely no sense at all.

Meadowhall isn’t a great idea for a regional hub. Why might you ask? Well for one thing it’s one of the busiest junctions on the M1, combined with the traffic going to and from Meadowhall shopping centre that sees around 30 million visitors per year, then there’s the traffic from the Arena, centertainment, Ikea, and the retail park. The roads struggle as it is, creating a major station hub there would make it even worse.


Despite the fact that passengers numbers for Sheffield Midland are suppressed (anecdotal evidence suggests this), it still has more passengers per year than all of the South Yorkshire stations combined! Why should passengers have to faff around with the inconvenience of catching a connecting train to and from Midland station just to use the new HS2 line? There wouldn’t be any time benefits for people travelling from Sheffield to Leeds and Sheffield to London.Any time saved is lost because of the connection.

Imagine if HS2 were to miss out Leeds city centre in favour of an out of town regional hub for West Yorkshire.

 

[HSTEd]

The Meadowhall stop makes absolutely no sense at all.

Well that's fine since its been deleted from the scheme.
Sheffield now gets a spur with a token service southbound and no service at all northbound, I hope the council is happy.

Meadowhall isn’t a great idea for a regional hub. Why might you ask? Well for one thing it’s one of the busiest junctions on the M1, combined with the traffic going to and from Meadowhall shopping centre that sees around 30 million visitors per year, then there’s the traffic from the Arena, centertainment, Ikea, and the retail park. The roads struggle as it is, creating a major station hub there would make it even worse.

So.... Meadowhall is bad because lots of people go there, thus ensuring that lots of transport links are available?

Despite the fact that passengers numbers for Sheffield Midland are suppressed (anecdotal evidence suggests this), it still has more passengers per year than all of the South Yorkshire stations combined! Why should passengers have to faff around with the inconvenience of catching a connecting train to and from Midland station just to use the new HS2 line? There wouldn’t be any time benefits for people travelling from Sheffield to Leeds and Sheffield to London.Any time saved is lost because of the connection.

Taking a train to Meadowhall and connecting takes an hour?

Imagine if HS2 were to miss out Leeds city centre in favour of an out of town regional hub for West Yorkshire.

There are no other major urban areas in West Yorkshire to serve.
South Yorkshire is not just Sheffield.

EDIT:

It's too late to meaningfully affect Phase 1 or 2A.... but 2B should be built entirely in tunnels.
I'm sick of getting bogged down in years of arguments.

 

[ohgoditsjames]

Well that's fine since its been deleted from the scheme.
Sheffield now gets a spur with a token service southbound and no service at all northbound, I hope the council is happy.

So.... Meadowhall is bad because lots of people go there, thus ensuring that lots of transport links are available?

Taking a train to Meadowhall and connecting takes an hour?

There are no other major urban areas in West Yorkshire to serve.
South Yorkshire is not just Sheffield.

EDIT:

It's too late to meaningfully affect Phase 1 or 2A.... but 2B should be built entirely in tunnels.
I'm sick of getting bogged down in years of arguments.

I honestly don't think you know the area well enough to comment.

 

[HSTEd]

In fact, the HS2-East spur should be cut back to Nottingham/toton, and the leg to Leeds replaced by an extension from Manchester to Leeds.

Joining the MML at Toton will be little slower than joining it south of Chesterfield, and since there is no plan for a way for traffic going to Sheffield to rejoin the line, there is little purpose in routing trains that way.
A Manchester-Leeds line picks up more far more traffic per km built.

 

[ian959]

Get the Chinese to build it, with Chinese labour under Chinese laws. It would be finished 5 times quicker, well within the revised budget (including bribes) and without long ongoing arguments about whether (for example) a specific tree should be saved...

 

[HSTEd]

Get the Chinese to build it, with Chinese labour under Chinese laws. It would be finished 5 times quicker, well within the revised budget (including bribes) and without long ongoing arguments about whether (for example) a specific tree should be saved...

And then it will randomly start falling down.

 

[edwin_m]

Well that's fine since its been deleted from the scheme.
Sheffield now gets a spur with a token service southbound and no service at all northbound, I hope the council is happy.

One of the NPR ideas is a connection back onto HS2 north of Sheffield so Sheffield-Leeds trains can use it.

 

[Bald Rick]

It's too late to meaningfully affect Phase 1 or 2A.... but 2B should be built entirely in tunnels.
I'm sick of getting bogged down in years of arguments.

It wouldn’t make any difference, at all, to the planning stages. Except that it would be back to the drawing board (adding at least three years) and make it much more expensive, and thus unaffordable.

 

[HSTEd]

It wouldn’t make any difference, at all, to the planning stages. Except that it would be back to the drawing board (adding at least three years) and make it much more expensive, and thus unaffordable.

Well given it keeps blowing budget estimates.....

But regardless, the backlash against building any linear infrastructure gets worse every time.
If you can't affordably put it in tunnels then eventually you won't be building it at all.

If you think the fight over phase 1 was bad, its probably going to get worse.

We can't even build overhead power lines now, and those don't do anywhere near as much wildlife damage as a railway or a road.

 

[Bald Rick]

Well given it keeps blowing budget estimates.....

But regardless, the backlash against building any linear infrastructure gets worse every time.
If you can't affordably put it in tunnels then eventually you won't be building it at all.

If you think the fight over phase 1 was bad, its probably going to get worse.

We can't even build overhead power lines now, and those don't do anywhere near as much wildlife damage as a railway or a road.

But as quoted (by me) elsewhere - the number of outstanding petitions on Ph2a is 30, at the same stage on Ph1 it was well over 800. Clearly Ph1 is longer, and goes through more difficult areas than 2a. However the objections are unquestionably less on a normalised basis. Whilst the number of petitions does have an impact on the length of the ‘inquiry’ (in this case the committee stage in parliament, for most projects the length of the public hearings in the TWO / DCO public inquiry), it is a matter of weeks in a planning consent stage that takes 2 years plus, in an overall planning phase of 4 years minimum.

Nevertheless, my point is that specifically for Ph2b, were you to put it all in tunnel it would be back to square one for the whole phase, at least a three year delay (probably 5+) and a cost that would be astronomical.

 

[30907]

In fact, the HS2-East spur should be cut back to Nottingham/toton, and the leg to Leeds replaced by an extension from Manchester to Leeds.

Joining the MML at Toton will be little slower than joining it south of Chesterfield, and since there is no plan for a way for traffic going to Sheffield to rejoin the line, there is little purpose in routing trains that way.
A Manchester-Leeds line picks up more far more traffic per km built.

Could I suggest a variant which I am sure will receive mixed reactions:
1. Leeds via Manchester as above (continuing towards York).
2. Birmingham/Lichfield to Leeds as a mixed-use passenger railway, suitable for 125/140mph classic trains (thinking new generation XC) as well as HS2 stock, perhaps with a 250k maximum speed. This would be largely new-build but not by the current proposed route; it would run via Derby and Sheffield and possibly access existing platforms there (not if captive stock is used).
3. Nottingham-Leicester-London would be electrified and be the principal MML service.

The impacts on journey time would be roughly:
1. Leeds and beyond 10-15min slower (for the NE this could be mitigated by a York bypass line);
2. Derby and particularly Sheffield gain, depending on chosen linespeed. XC also benefits significantly over Leeds-Sheffield-Derby and thence to beyond Birmingham.
3. Nottingham 5-10min slower, but at least the city centre is served.

There is a lot of detail missing here, obviously; I haven't checked out the variant routes considered by HS2; there's probably more tunnelling involved (particularly Chesterfield-Sheffield-Brightside) and not much less new track altogether.
Look forward to hearing why I'm wrong...

 

[gordonthemoron]

HS2 to Leeds/York will be required for rerouting the northern ECML as and when it floods between York and Newark due to rising sea levels

 

[6Gman]

There are no other major urban areas in West Yorkshire to serve.

I've got Bradford on the phone.

They'd like a word.

 

[6Gman]

But regardless, the backlash against building any linear infrastructure gets worse every time.
If you can't affordably put it in tunnels then eventually you won't be building it at all.
If you think the fight over phase 1 was bad, its probably going to get worse.

HS2 will run about 300 yards from our front door. Still waiting for any "backlash". From residents, the Parish Council or anyone else really.

There have been detailed observations regarding road arrangements, access for construction etc and a few individuals who are very put out but the idea that "the shires are in revolt" doesn't seem to apply in much of N Staffs/ S Cheshire.

 

[PTR 444]

I would do London - Crewe all in one go with a late 2028-2029 opening, then cancel phase 2b through the East Midlands and extend to Leeds via Manchester instead. I would also have a link from HS2 to the classic network in the Birmingham terminals area to allow HS trains to run through to “classic line” destinations such as Wolverhampton, Shrewsbury and Bristol.

 

[edwin_m]

I would also have a link from HS2 to the classic network in the Birmingham terminals area to allow HS trains to run through to “classic line” destinations such as Wolverhampton, Shrewsbury and Bristol.

I hope such a link is possible, as it would also allow Midlands Connect to run fast Birmingham-Nottingham trains. However the policy now seems to be not to change the alignment of Phase 1 because of all the extra work and delay doing so, including going back to Parliament.

 

[ohgoditsjames]

I would do London - Crewe all in one go with a late 2028-2029 opening, then cancel phase 2b through the East Midlands and extend to Leeds via Manchester instead. I would also have a link from HS2 to the classic network in the Birmingham terminals area to allow HS trains to run through to “classic line” destinations such as Wolverhampton, Shrewsbury and Bristol.

So you’re going to cancel the eastern leg and leave Sheffield (one of the countries largest cities) completely unserved? Since you’re cancelling that you’re also cutting Sheffield from its NPR services, you know the services that are reliant on HS2, what do you propose to do then? Serving Leeds via Manchester is also a bad idea as you would be adding 25 minutes or so to the Leeds services.

 

[edwin_m]

The other problem with lengthening the journey time on the eastern leg is that it might end up no quicker than the ECML for London journeys, as the ECML is pretty fast and much more direct than HS2. That's also an argument for dropping the eastern leg if it's no quicker to London. But that would lose the benefit of released capacity on the ECML, and the eastern leg does save a lot of time for Birmingham trains.

 

[PTR 444]

So you’re going to cancel the eastern leg and leave Sheffield (one of the countries largest cities) completely unserved? Since you’re cancelling that you’re also cutting Sheffield from its NPR services, you know the services that are reliant on HS2, what do you propose to do then? Serving Leeds via Manchester is also a bad idea as you would be adding 25 minutes or so to the Leeds services.

That doesn’t mean I would never consider an East Midlands Line for the future. I think in the current economic climate, it would be better to do NPR first (sometime in the 2030s) because it would improve the connectivity issues there, then I would do the eastern phase of HS2 as a separate project called HSMidland sometime around 2045.

 

[HSTEd]

So you’re going to cancel the eastern leg and leave Sheffield (one of the countries largest cities) completely unserved? Since you’re cancelling that you’re also cutting Sheffield from its NPR services, you know the services that are reliant on HS2, what do you propose to do then?

If NPR wants to pay for that alignment, they can pay for that alignment.
But for HS2's purposes, the via Manchester route has much to recommend it over the current arrangement.

And the bulk of the journey time saving to Sheffield can be achieved with a only 60km of track to somewhere in the vicinity of Long Eaton.
Indeed HS2 trains for Sheffield will leave HS2 only 20 or so miles beyond that.

Serving Leeds via Manchester is also a bad idea as you would be adding 25 minutes or so to the Leeds services.

Really?
Just how slow do you project it being between Leeds and Manchester?

Manchester-Euston will be 67 minutes.
HS2 Ltd put Leeds-Euston at 81 minutes.

Assuming an underground triangle junction immediately south of Picadilly, we can proceed at line speed from Manchester Airport to Leeds, a distance of approximately 70km.
Euston-Manchester airport is ~63 minutes.

If we go to my big book of HSL section times, Class 395s manage 57km in 19 minutes with 140mph top speed.
Even at 140mph top speed that gives us something like 23 minutes.

Which would be 5 minutes slower than the time via Phase 2-East.
With a 320km/h top speed you will achieve comparable journey times.

Certainly not 25 minutes slower.

EDIT:

Shizuoka to Hamamatsu on the Tokaido Shinkansen (distance of 77km), non N700 Shinkansen set did it in 26 minutes in 2010.
That means it was probably a normal 700 series set.
Fast accelerating but we could do better.

270km/h top speed or so implies something like a 25 minute section time.

Which takes us to 88 minutes, so 7 minutes slower. And we can definitely do better now.

 

[The Ham]

What I'd do is get on with building HS2, with HSN (High Speed North) being developed and creating a network based on the general principles of the HS2 phase 2 and the Northern Powerhouse Rail schemes to create something better, with key sections being built and opened as soon as it's suitable (without increasing costs significantly, so where there's a plan for a junction anyway).

As that's being built out then start looking at HSE (High Speed East) which runs from Central London (via a East London hub similar to Old Oak Common) up the East Coast via Cambridge.

In addition look at a HSW (High Speed West) which would have no Central London terminal, rather it would run between Old Oak Common, the new Eastern hub station and Stratford. Providing a simple interchange between all the High Speed lines.

It would likely run to Salisbury before serving Southampton, Weymouth, Bristol, Exeter and Wales (probably a sidewise Y of track with Salisbury being the mid point or near the mid point, much as Birmingham is for HS2).

All the while looking for other schemes, such as extensions to and within Scotland and maybe even to Ireland and even another link to the continent.

All the while looking at enhancing the existing rail network, including significant electrification. Whilst at the same time looking to see if we can reduce the amount of motorway and airport capacity as car and aircraft usage falls.

It may well take to 2080 to build it all, by which point there's likely to be yet more lines required. However it's good to think big sometimes.