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HS2 Leeds station location

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CdBrux

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It seems that a rethink is now officially underway:

Sir David Higgins is to review redevelopment options for Leeds station to prepare it for HS2, the chancellor has announced.

The chair of HS2 Ltd warned in a report last year that by the time HS2 arrives in the city, the existing Leeds station will have reached capacity, raising questions over where to house services using a proposed new East-West line nicknamed HS3.

The distance between the existing Leeds station – which is currently undergoing a £17.3m regeneration, with a new southern entrance to open soon – and the proposed HS2 station site at New Lane (see map below) has been highlighted as a “potential barrier”.


more details:

http://www.railtechnologymagazine.c...r+Feb+15+Week+1&dm_i=IJS,362K3,G6LINB,BCON8,1


To me, who doesn't know the area, it makes more sense if a sensible solution can be found to expand the existing station and integrate with 'HS3'. We need to wait to the autumn to hear the outcome of Higgins study.
 
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GrimsbyPacer

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HS2 has little conectivity except at London and Mancheter ends.
I think the whole eastern arm will be dropped as East Midlands, Sheffield and Leeds station location cause alot of controversy.
It must have been obvisious that New Lane wouldn't connect most of West Yorkshire well at all. HS3 has already been rumoured to be a replacement for HS2 to Leeds, hence why GNWR weren't allowed to run to Leeds on the West Coast.

Next someone will realise Leeds New Lane had no connection to services running Northbound! So trains can't run to Newcastle like present.
 

NotATrainspott

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HS2 has little conectivity except at London and Mancheter ends.
I think the whole eastern arm will be dropped as East Midlands, Sheffield and Leeds station location cause alot of controversy.
It must have been obvisious that New Lane wouldn't connect most of West Yorkshire well at all. HS3 has already been rumoured to be a replacement for HS2 to Leeds, hence why GNWR weren't allowed to run to Leeds on the West Coast.

Next someone will realise Leeds New Lane had no connection to services running Northbound! So trains can't run to Newcastle like present.

The eastern arm of the Y network has the highest BCR of any single component, because it does something more than just upgrading what already exists. It's not going to be cancelled for the sake of where to put the intermediate stations.
 

edwin_m

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There's probably room for a terminus just north of the existing station but for a through station it looks like a question of either double-decking right through, or knocking down large chunks of new development to the south of it.

The walking distance from the current station platforms to the proposed new site is also inflated by having to cross to the wrong side of the station and back under the tracks on Neville Street. If an elevated walkway from the New Lane site can link directly into the station bridge at City (or a new station bridge further east to carry the extra passenger flow) then interchange will be much shorter. This won't do anything for East West though.
 

NotATrainspott

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There's probably room for a terminus just north of the existing station but for a through station it looks like a question of either double-decking right through, or knocking down large chunks of new development to the south of it.

The walking distance from the current station platforms to the proposed new site is also inflated by having to cross to the wrong side of the station and back under the tracks on Neville Street. If an elevated walkway from the New Lane site can link directly into the station bridge at City (or a new station bridge further east to carry the extra passenger flow) then interchange will be much shorter. This won't do anything for East West though.

There is room north of the existing station for a terminus; it was one of the final three engineering options presented to HS2 Ltd along with New Lane and another New Lane-esque station a hundred metres to the east.
 

Camden

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Here's where projects flying or dying solely on the back of BCR lets the side down.

The Leeds arm is clearly in need of massive change to be satisfactory, that much is clear from the rethink over Leeds station, the argument over the siting of Sheffield station, and the sheer nothingness of East Midlands Toton.

But NotATrainspott (er?) is right that this wonky line has the highest BCR by far, to the extent that it's pretty much propping up the whole project.

It should be canned until it can be done right. But it won't be, because it's likely then the whole project would have to be canned. An absurd situation to say the least.
 

HSTEd

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Noone has proposed any other reasonable site for the Sheffield station than Meadowhall - it would cost so much for a city centre station that Sheffield could have a metro instead.

Likewise noone has really come up with a proposal that is much better than Toton (Breaston is a marginal gain at best)
 

bluenoxid

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I just cannot see a doubledeck station working

The alternative is to reconfigure Leeds station and allow through services out of Leeds towards a site that is around south of Waterloo Street.

Unfortunately, any central Leeds station is going to require some demolition work. The question is how HS2 delivers maximum connectivity.
 

NotATrainspott

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'HS3' services would take over the current TransPennine services, including those to Newcastle and the North East. For that to work, there needs to be some way to get trains from the Manchester-Leeds section to the Leeds-Newcastle one. Continuing along the current route may work but it doesn't help increase speeds or capacity for either the long distance services or the sorts of commuter services Leeds needs. At the same time, the HS2 spur out of Leeds will only have 5tph limited to 230km/h, and ends at a junction designed specifically to be built out to a full Birmingham-style delta towards Newcastle at high speed and York at classic speeds. Connecting the two seems to be a no-brainer, even if no more high speed track north of Leeds is built immediately. Indeed, combining the two in this way would do a great deal of help to get the business case for a captive extension to Newcastle sorted.
 

GrimsbyPacer

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Noone has proposed any other reasonable site for the Sheffield station than Meadowhall - it would cost so much for a city centre station that Sheffield could have a metro instead.

Likewise noone has really come up with a proposal that is much better than Toton (Breaston is a marginal gain at best)

Sheffield Victoria would require no demolition (A few houses between the M1 and HS2 are to be knocked down). It could be built over existing lines easily and could connect with HS3 to Leeds and Manchester reducing the need for the terminus station in Leeds. Also this would allow "classic compatible" HS2 trains to run onto current lines from Sheffield to Doncaster, Derby and Wakefield.
 

HSTEd

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Sheffield Victoria would require no demolition (A few houses between the M1 and HS2 are to be knocked down).
The line through Victoria would be too slow for through trains and would thus require seperate slip lines to be built just for the trains stopping at Sheffield - this is why projections for this station come up at at a billion pounds or more.

It could be built over existing lines easily and could connect with HS3 to Leeds and Manchester reducing the need for the terminus station in Leeds.
Building over existing lines is a false economy - as has been demonstrated with the NNML and similar parts of the HS2-1 project, it leads to endless disruption and drives costs skyhigh.
All the studies I see on HS3 (beyond the repaint the existing line and call it new proposals obviously) have it using the HS2 approach into Leeds - so you can't really eliminate that and use the HS3 one as one isn't actually planned.

Also this would allow "classic compatible" HS2 trains to run onto current lines from Sheffield to Doncaster, Derby and Wakefield.
You want to take HS2 to Sheffield and then double back to Derby on the MML?
And this is quicker than changing at Toton or simply taking the MML all the way... why?
Ditto with Doncaster - by the time you have done the 25 minute crawl to Doncaster you will have thrown away most of your journey time advantage.
 
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Haydn1971

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I'm struggling to see a through station solution for Leeds that doesn't involve huge amounts of tunnelling. Whilst the current terminus ideas for both North and South of Leeds Station could be made to work for services heading south, having a reversing train solution for HS3 wouldn't.
 

HSTEd

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The current eastern approach is too heavily loaded as it is - the reversing solution (heading south and using the York spur after a chord is added there) probably doesn't come out any slower.
And it doesn't overload the capacity on that section.
(Even with all these HS3 trains I can't see the Leeds-York Junction section getting over our 18tph ceiling).
Trains from Liverpool and Manchester to Newcastle could simply bypass Leeds - HSR trainsets can now be ~100m long so we can have many many trains if necessary.
 

NotATrainspott

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Bypassing Leeds isn't going to work, for the same reasons that the TransPennine services don't bypass cities. It's far more efficient (and therefore more likely to be funded by government) for as many routes as possible to be rolled into one single train service. A Liverpool-Manchester-Leeds-Newcastle service will have high passenger loadings throughout, meaning that there is a point in providing a high frequency (thus making it even more popular) and for each train to have a high capacity. If you start bypassing cities, the number of trains per hour on different journeys starts to fall off a cliff and ruin the entire scheme.
 

bangor-toad

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I'm struggling to see a through station solution for Leeds that doesn't involve huge amounts of tunnelling. Whilst the current terminus ideas for both North and South of Leeds Station could be made to work for services heading south, having a reversing train solution for HS3 wouldn't.

I an see one.
The design compromise is that it would not permit running to/from HS2 & HS3 but it would make passenger interchange quite straightforward.

If you leave the HS2 terminus where it was suggested it is a distance to the south of the current Leeds station. HS3 could be brought in from the west on the old abandoned viaduct but rather than go through the "S" bend into existing Leeds station it would carry on in pretty much a straight line.

OK, there's a couple of office block in the way but these can be removed...
The HS3 station would then lie more or less on an east/west alignment between the existing Leeds station and the proposed HS2 station. With a few travelators between the bits, which would be shorter than at many airports, that's probably reasonably convenient for passengers.

Then at the east end of the HS3 station there'd need to be a sharp gradient to drop into a tunnel under the area where the Royal Armouries is and under the river. It would then emerge near Neville Hill junction, either to join the current network or to squeeze in some dedicated tracks.

I see this as requiring minimal demolition and tunnelling and it provides a big station which can connect all existing and proposed HS2 & HS3 routes with sensible interchanges.

Of course, just my opinion!
Cheers,
Mr Toad
 

HSTEd

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Bypassing Leeds isn't going to work, for the same reasons that the TransPennine services don't bypass cities.
They don't bypass cities because they can't - city bypass lines simply don't exist at this point.
The railway built in a different era, piecemeal and for goods traffic.
It's far more efficient (and therefore more likely to be funded by government) for as many routes as possible to be rolled into one single train service. A Liverpool-Manchester-Leeds-Newcastle service will have high passenger loadings throughout, meaning that there is a point in providing a high frequency (thus making it even more popular) and for each train to have a high capacity.
If you start bypassing cities, the number of trains per hour on different journeys starts to fall off a cliff and ruin the entire scheme.

If you don't start bypassing cities the capital cost of the scheme goes so high that it never gets built. For example to make a HS3 through station in Manchester you would need two new city approaches (one east and one west) rather than zero for a scheme that allows a terminus in Manchester (because it would just use the HS2 one that already exists).
You can either accept mass use of reversing on the same route or you can accept multiple point to point hops using interworked sets to keep frequency between city pairs high. (One would run direct but there is no reason you cannot sit on a set that is going to get you there but after a reverse at an intermediate city). This also leads to shorter end to end journey times and thus improves the usefulness of the scheme (with proper layout of the HS3 alignments you can feasibly do Liverpool-Newcastle in under 70 minutes, assuming the approval of a captive spur for Tyne/Teeside).

Also the cost of baseline of ruunning trains on HSLs will be lower than on the classic network due to the short journey time and DOO - so more intensively operated routes become feasible.
 
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NotATrainspott

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They don't bypass cities because they can't - city bypass lines simply don't exist at this point.
The railway built in a different era, piecemeal and for goods traffic.

If you don't start bypassing cities the capital cost of the scheme goes so high that it never gets built. For example to make a HS3 through station in Manchester you would need two new city approaches (one east and one west) rather than zero for a scheme that allows a terminus in Manchester (because it would just use the HS2 one that already exists).
You can either accept mass use of reversing on the same route or you can accept multiple point to point hops using interworked sets to keep frequency between city pairs high. (One would run direct but there is no reason you cannot sit on a set that is going to get you there but after a reverse at an intermediate city). This also leads to shorter end to end journey times and thus improves the usefulness of the scheme (with proper layout of the HS3 alignments you can feasibly do Liverpool-Newcastle in under 70 minutes, assuming the approval of a captive spur for Tyne/Teeside).

Also the cost of baseline of ruunning trains on HSLs will be lower than on the classic network due to the short journey time and DOO - so more intensively operated routes become feasible.

If you bypass cities, you have to run more services. That it's more efficient to run HSR services isn't relevant here when comparing your point-to-point approach against what I'm discussing. For example, in your idea, you would use something like a Class 395 Javelin as the 'HS3' train and have >2tph between each city pair. The staffing costs of a single Javelin carrying ~300 people isn't any different to the cost of staffing a 200m set carrying 550 people or, with DOO, a 400m set carrying 1100 people. You need more trains and more crews to move the same number of people (read: ticket fares and economic impact) yet individually, each city pair gets a worse service. If you string together services such as Liverpool-Manchester-Leeds-Newcastle, the number of tph that you need to run to move the same number of people will reduce, thus reducing operating costs. At the same time, that reduced operating cost, and need for fewer trains, makes it much easier to increase frequency once passenger loadings require it, as each extra train per hour's capacity can be shared by a small increase in numbers of people going to each individual city along the route. If you've got a 3tph point-to-point service from Liverpool to Leeds, for example, then you need to wait until there is an absolute need for 4tph on the Liverpool-Leeds line alone before you can increase frequency. Frequency is probably going to be the single most important aspect of the HS3 idea, as there is no point in there being a fast route if the trains don't come frequent enough to make any appreciable difference in total door-to-door journey time.

The proposals for HS2 hinge upon the fact that each place served by HS2 is capable of filling trains to London immediately. There's no need to build the route through the middle of Birmingham when the trains from Manchester will be full already, and any Manchester-Birmingham travellers can just use direct services as well. The same is not true for the various northern city pairs, simply due to the increased number of possible pairings required. It would be fine if each city just needed to pair with Manchester alone, as is the case for current London services, but this wouldn't be acceptable to anywhere but Manchester and wouldn't really work. The same approach of stringing journeys together will be necessary for other HSR in the UK once the Y network is extended to Newcastle and Scotland. A Birmingham-Bristol line must serve the centre of Birmingham for it to work, as there is no business case in sending some of the Birmingham-North trains around a bypass line and losing all their Birmingham passengers.

The Government has basically infinite money to spend on worthwhile investments. This is why it can afford Crossrail 1, which has a huge upfront cost but one that is necessary for the scheme to work. They could have saved billions off the cost by making different decisions but these decisions would then have made the line work less well, and meant less economic return. There is nothing impossible about getting a proper HS3 route sorted that will run through the middle of Manchester and Leeds. Thankfully, unlike HS2 or Crossrail, it will be possible to stage the work so that benefits can be seen more quickly and more cheaply without harming the long-term efficiency of the idea. The first stage could be to build a new pair of tracks from the east of Victoria to wherever in Leeds it would be possible to connect into the existing lines and use existing stations. Then you just link up other sections of the route, like from Liverpool to west of Victoria, allowing 'HS3' services to spend more and more time on dedicated tracks at higher speeds. Once the time is right to rebuild Victoria, it can be done to provide that set of segregated platforms for the 'HS3' services.
 

HSTEd

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If you bypass cities, you have to run more services. That it's more efficient to run HSR services isn't relevant here when comparing your point-to-point approach against what I'm discussing.
Actually it is very relevant - because the costs of running a set have now dropped sufficiently that the capital cost of the infrastructure is the dominant factor.
Which means we can trade off lower set effficiency in favour of greater efficiency of capital investment and still come out with a net gain.

For example, in your idea, you would use something like a Class 395 Javelin as the 'HS3' train and have >2tph between each city pair. The staffing costs of a single Javelin carrying ~300 people isn't any different to the cost of staffing a 200m set carrying 550 people or, with DOO, a 400m set carrying 1100 people. You need more trains and more crews to move the same number of people (read: ticket fares and economic impact) yet individually, each city pair gets a worse service.

You would likely use something like the 100m set from CAF (the Oaris) rather than a Javelin for reasons that I will soon demonstrate.
Let's say you have four northern city complexes (Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds, York/Newcastle (as York can certainly be a through station it can use Newcastle trains)). All of those can only be practical as termini - Liverpool and Newcastle because they are ends of the line, Manchester because it can either use the HS2 approach at zero cost or because it will need two billion pound+ tunnel approaches and a hugely expensive new station (as Victoria is kind of stupid because it would miss out on major connectivity at Picadilly) and finally Leeds because there is nowhere near enough spare capacity on the eastern approach, again neccesitating massive tunneled approaches and a new station location that can be avoided if you simply use the HS2 approach and the HS2 York access spur.

If we take these four termini - and you want to go excessive and have four trains per hour between every pair - this will require you to have 12tph into each termini - still within the likely capabilities of the HS2 approaches at Leeds and Manchester and thus requiring no additional infrastructure at those sites beyond some new platforms that if specced in now can be relatively inexpensively included in the new stations being constructed.
Additionally the number of actual sets required for this enormously intensive timetable is not necessarily as large as it appears - as Liverpool-Newcastle/York trains would stop maybe twice during their journey (York and Manc Airport for example) they could keep up to speed for long journeys and thus could utilise higher speeds than 230km/h practically.
With clever design of the infrastructure the trains could access the 'unlimited speed' route which could be arrnaged along the HS3 corridor without disadvantage to HS2 trains. 320km/h would be easily achievable, which means Newcastle-Liverpool journey times of an hour are within reach.
And with lower capital costs than the through route proposal that requires lower speeds.
All this will reduce the number of trainsets required and the number of vehicles required to a level comparable to using longer trains on 'strung together' journeys - I will spec an example timetable to demonstrate this if you give me a couple of hours.
We also have to spec for the enormous transport growth that will occur between these cities once the system is in place - it gets to the point that the Universities of Manchester, Leeds and maybe even York could merge into a single multi campus university and have students commute between them.

If you string together services such as Liverpool-Manchester-Leeds-Newcastle, the number of tph that you need to run to move the same number of people will reduce, thus reducing operating costs. At the same time, that reduced operating cost, and need for fewer trains, makes it much easier to increase frequency once passenger loadings require it, as each extra train per hour's capacity can be shared by a small increase in numbers of people going to each individual city along the route. If you've got a 3tph point-to-point service from Liverpool to Leeds, for example, then you need to wait until there is an absolute need for 4tph on the Liverpool-Leeds line alone before you can increase frequency. Frequency is probably going to be the single most important aspect of the HS3 idea, as there is no point in there being a fast route if the trains don't come frequent enough to make any appreciable difference in total door-to-door journey time.
But frequency is cheap thanks to the enormous train/hour capacity available to modern railways and the fast cycle times of trains and crews thanks to the high speed.
It will not be able to overcome the titanic capital costs. (Which still have to be paid back over the trial period even if they are near zero interest, as they are now).

The Government has basically infinite money to spend on worthwhile investments. This is why it can afford Crossrail 1, which has a huge upfront cost but one that is necessary for the scheme to work. They could have saved billions off the cost by making different decisions but these decisions would then have made the line work less well, and meant less economic return. There is nothing impossible about getting a proper HS3 route sorted that will run through the middle of Manchester and Leeds. Thankfully, unlike HS2 or Crossrail, it will be possible to stage the work so that benefits can be seen more quickly and more cheaply without harming the long-term efficiency of the idea. The first stage could be to build a new pair of tracks from the east of Victoria to wherever in Leeds it would be possible to connect into the existing lines and use existing stations. Then you just link up other sections of the route, like from Liverpool to west of Victoria, allowing 'HS3' services to spend more and more time on dedicated tracks at higher speeds. Once the time is right to rebuild Victoria, it can be done to provide that set of segregated platforms for the 'HS3' services.
But, despite low interest costs, the capital repayments would be so enormous as to render the idea less beneficial than the point to point approach.
And capital costs have to be go through trial-by-media, which makes them very difficult to obtain.

EDIT: And here is a very calculation I did for illustration purposes:

Crude drawing on a map generates these approximate distances for a Point-to-Point system:
Liverpool* - Newcastle > 287km - ~60 minutes each way - ~ 2.5 hour cycle time - 10 sets
Liverpool* - Leeds > 135km - ~40 minutes each way - ~ 2 hour cycle time - 8 sets
Liverpool* - Manchester > 75km ~ 25 minutes each way - ~ 1.25 hour cycle time - 5 sets

Manchester - Leeds > 90km - ~ 30 minutes each way - ~ 1.5 hour cycle time - 6 sets
Manchester - Newcastle > 220km - ~ 50 minutes each way - ~ 2.3 hour cycle time - 10 sets

Leeds - Newcastle > 160km > ~45 minutes each way - ~ 2 hour cycle time - 8 sets

Total: 47 sets - 188 vehicles


* Liverpool approach is northerly into Exchange simply because this is the approach I favour and no captive route seems to have won consensus - it is also rather cheap as it appears to requrie almost no tunneling at all.

If we go with the straight through approach we only have one train service:

Liverpool - Manchester - Leeds - Newcastle (via York) > ~270km.
Which is shorter than the point to point's longest stretch, but your travel time will be something like 2 hours end to end once you account for the lower speed running of the through line proposal and the multiple additional stops.
(That still has you averaging a similar speed to a WCML express - so obviously still fast).
That means you will have something approaching a five hour cycle time, requiring close to 20 sets.

So you appear to have a drastically lower set requirement (20 v 47), however you must fit everyone travelling east or west out of any city in the system into that one set, whereas the other spreads all the passengers across three.
So we willl (conservatively) increase the train length to 8 vehicles, which boosts your set equivalent requirement to ~ 40.
So you only save 17% of your rolling stock requirement.
Staff costs are actually largely negligible in a DOO operated ATO high speed system simply because staff costs generally on the railway are almost negligible.

In return for this modest increase in rolling stock costs and significant increase in staff costs I have slashed the capital cost of the project and shortened journey times significantly over the longer legs.
 
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NotATrainspott

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Actually it is very relevant - because the costs of running a set have now dropped sufficiently that the capital cost of the infrastructure is the dominant factor.
Which means we can trade off lower set effficiency in favour of greater efficiency of capital investment and still come out with a net gain.

No, the cost of the infrastructure is spent once but the cost of running services continues for as long as those services run. As I said, the Government are more than capable of spending more money in the short term to provide a better overall solution for the future.

You would likely use something like the 100m set from CAF (the Oaris) rather than a Javelin for reasons that I will soon demonstrate.

It doesn't really matter which exact type of train is used.

Let's say you have four northern city complexes (Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds, York/Newcastle (as York can certainly be a through station it can use Newcastle trains)). All of those can only be practical as termini - Liverpool and Newcastle because they are ends of the line, Manchester because it can either use the HS2 approach at zero cost or because it will need two billion pound+ tunnel approaches and a hugely expensive new station (as Victoria is kind of stupid because it would miss out on major connectivity at Picadilly) and finally Leeds because there is nowhere near enough spare capacity on the eastern approach, again neccesitating massive tunneled approaches and a new station location that can be avoided if you simply use the HS2 approach and the HS2 York access spur.

The western approach to Victoria has more-or-less been engineered completely as part of the Salford HS2 options. The Airport tunnel costs more to build but it delivers larger benefits for north-south travel, so that's why the Government are going with it. Using tunnels to take trains from city centre surface tracks out to the edge of a city is not an unduly expensive option, and the tunnelling here (as with the HS2 Airport tunnel) will be easy as both ends are empty or light industrial land where construction facilities can easily be built. The route out of Manchester towards Leeds doesn't need to be tunnelled if you follow the Caldervale alignment, which was originally designed for more tracks and passes through areas of relatively low land cost so there is no real challenge in fitting in a higher/high speed route. HS1 follows the C2C line perfectly happily through similar land use areas at 230km/h without there being too much of an issue.

If we take these four termini - and you want to go excessive and have four trains per hour between every pair - this will require you to have 12tph into each termini - still within the likely capabilities of the HS2 approaches at Leeds and Manchester and thus requiring no additional infrastructure at those sites beyond some new platforms that if specced in now can be relatively inexpensively included in the new stations being constructed.

What's the point of the high speed route if frequency is only 3tph or 2tph? When the distances are shorter, the more important measure is frequency since the average waiting times at stations become a significant part of the entire journey time.

Also, the HS2 termini planned already are designed only for HS2 operations. The four platform faces at Piccadilly are capable of managing 8tph using the 2tph/platform rule set out by HS2 Ltd. That's enough for the very long term after a second London-Midlands line is built, with 5tph to London, 2tph to Birmingham (or 4tph/3tph, I don't know) plus 1tph to Scotland via the Airport. Adding in frequent services to other northern cities means a complete rethink of the station would be required, as you would then have the same tph demands as Euston with its grade-separated throat and 11-12 platforms. If you did actually use 100m trainsets, you would have a horrific station that would be wider than it was long.

If you are running high frequency services, the only logical solution is to build a through station, which massively reduces land take in the city centre and perfectly suits the sort of route I support. Crossrail can take 30tph in each direction even when there are only two platforms at each station, so putting in four platforms (to compensate for the non-metro layout of the trains) could easily cope with all capacity demands on the route for decades to come.

Additionally the number of actual sets required for this enormously intensive timetable is not necessarily as large as it appears - as Liverpool-Newcastle/York trains would stop maybe twice during their journey (York and Manc Airport for example) they could keep up to speed for long journeys and thus could utilise higher speeds than 230km/h practically.

If you build new routes into Manchester and Leeds, you can design them so that trains run as fast as possible for as long as possible. HS2 trains will reach 200km/h between Euston and Old Oak Common, for example, so it isn't as if stopping in central Manchester is going to destroy any journey time savings. And again, with the increase in loadings on each service, it becomes possible to increase frequency again so that average wait times drop more and passenger numbers increase once again.

With clever design of the infrastructure the trains could access the 'unlimited speed' route which could be arrnaged along the HS3 corridor without disadvantage to HS2 trains. 320km/h would be easily achievable, which means Newcastle-Liverpool journey times of an hour are within reach.
And with lower capital costs than the through route proposal that requires lower speeds.

You could have 320km/h sections between the city centres, if you really wanted. Any increase in journey times will be more-or-less negated entirely by the better frequency. Providing 6tph from Liverpool to Newcastle without stopping anywhere is never going to be feasible, but it would be more than feasible if that 6tph stopped in Manchester and Leeds as well to serve those markets. 2tph is more likely for that point-to-point journey, but the reduction in frequency means that the maximum waiting time for a service increases from 10 minutes to 30 minutes and the average waiting time increases from 5 to 15 minutes. Remember too that rail will end up with a massive monopoly of these Liverpool-Newcastle travellers even if it were a few minutes slower than it theoretically could be.

All this will reduce the number of trainsets required and the number of vehicles required to a level comparable to using longer trains on 'strung together' journeys - I will spec an example timetable to demonstrate this if you give me a couple of hours.

We also have to spec for the enormous transport growth that will occur between these cities once the system is in place - it gets to the point that the Universities of Manchester, Leeds and maybe even York could merge into a single multi campus university and have students commute between them.

Yes, indeed. But that doesn't help your idea above mine.

But frequency is cheap thanks to the enormous train/hour capacity available to modern railways and the fast cycle times of trains and crews thanks to the high speed.
It will not be able to overcome the titanic capital costs. (Which still have to be paid back over the trial period even if they are near zero interest, as they are now).

Frequency is not the most expensive part but your plan for high frequencies still requires significantly more resources than mine does, for little gain other than a one-time reduction in build costs.

But, despite low interest costs, the capital repayments would be so enormous as to render the idea less beneficial than the point to point approach.
And capital costs have to be go through trial-by-media, which makes them very difficult to obtain.

Crossrail 2 is now expected to cost on the order of £30bn in total. The Government will be paying for a portion of this, but it doesn't seem to be overly concerned that it wouldn't be able to afford it. The cost of building railways fades away into nothingness over the long term, yet the benefits that construction brings increases year on year. For a country of ~60m people, the cost of building a proper 'HS3' network is negligible.

EDIT: And here is a very calculation I did for illustration purposes:

Crude drawing on a map generates these approximate distances for a Point-to-Point system:
Liverpool* - Newcastle > 287km - ~60 minutes each way - ~ 2.5 hour cycle time - 10 sets
Liverpool* - Leeds > 135km - ~40 minutes each way - ~ 2 hour cycle time - 8 sets
Liverpool* - Manchester > 75km ~ 25 minutes each way - ~ 1.25 hour cycle time - 5 sets

Manchester - Leeds > 90km - ~ 30 minutes each way - ~ 1.5 hour cycle time - 6 sets
Manchester - Newcastle > 220km - ~ 50 minutes each way - ~ 2.3 hour cycle time - 10 sets

Leeds - Newcastle > 160km > ~45 minutes each way - ~ 2 hour cycle time - 8 sets

Total: 47 sets - 188 vehicles


* Liverpool approach is northerly into Exchange simply because this is the approach I favour and no captive route seems to have won consensus - it is also rather cheap as it appears to requrie almost no tunneling at all.

If we go with the straight through approach we only have one train service:

Liverpool - Manchester - Leeds - Newcastle (via York) > ~270km.
Which is shorter than the point to point's longest stretch, but your travel time will be something like 2 hours end to end once you account for the lower speed running of the through line proposal and the multiple additional stops.
(That still has you averaging a similar speed to a WCML express - so obviously still fast).
That means you will have something approaching a five hour cycle time, requiring close to 20 sets.

So you appear to have a drastically lower set requirement (20 v 47), however you must fit everyone travelling east or west out of any city in the system into that one set, whereas the other spreads all the passengers across three.
So we willl (conservatively) increase the train length to 8 vehicles, which boosts your set equivalent requirement to ~ 40.
So you only save 17% of your rolling stock requirement.
Staff costs are actually largely negligible in a DOO operated ATO high speed system simply because staff costs generally on the railway are almost negligible.

Liverpool to Newcastle is a 3 hour journey right now with diesel rolling stock limited to 100mph. A linear network is not incompatible with a 320km/h top speed, and any line north of Leeds would be built for 400km/h as it would primarily be part of HS2. 'HS3' services on new tracks could reach 230km/h within kilometres of the city centre stations, so even if they do stop in city centres and are limited to 230km/h between Liverpool and Leeds, they're still going to be significantly faster than current IC expresses.

It's also still more efficient to run one train with more carriages than it is to run more trains with fewer ones.

In return for this modest increase in rolling stock costs and significant increase in staff costs I have slashed the capital cost of the project and shortened journey times significantly over the longer legs.

But you haven't actually reduced journey times by that much, and you haven't been able to provide the level of frequency across every single possible journey that will actually encourage people to do things. A 6tph Liverpool-Newcastle service means that every single station along the route gets a 6tph service to every other station on the route. If you wanted your network to provide the same frequency on all journeys, you would need a massive increase in the number of trains needed with the effects that has on economics. The cost of buying trains has to be considered as part of running costs, as they must be replaced entirely every 35 years or so, and your network would be doomed to have to buy a much larger fleet of them every time. A huge fleet of trains will cost the same as some of the major infrastructure works that would be needed for my 'HS3' proposal, yet the cost of those infrastructure works will be spent once and then fade into nothingness while your network will require that money be spent regularly.
 

GrimsbyPacer

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The line through Victoria would be too slow for through trains and would thus require seperate slip lines to be built just for the trains stopping at Sheffield - this is why projections for this station come up at at a billion pounds or more.


Building over existing lines is a false economy - as has been demonstrated with the NNML and similar parts of the HS2-1 project, it leads to endless disruption and drives costs skyhigh.
All the studies I see on HS3 (beyond the repaint the existing line and call it new proposals obviously) have it using the HS2 approach into Leeds - so you can't really eliminate that and use the HS3 one as one isn't actually planned.


You want to take HS2 to Sheffield and then double back to Derby on the MML?
And this is quicker than changing at Toton or simply taking the MML all the way... why?
Ditto with Doncaster - by the time you have done the 25 minute crawl to Doncaster you will have thrown away most of your journey time advantage.

By building over existing lines I mean El-Train style viaducts above lines outside of Sheffield City Centre, on approaching lines.
Yes the speed would be slow, but all trains should stop in Sheffield and deceleration takes ages.

Derby's connection is so a Leicester-Derby to Leeds/Manchester route could exist.
A Doncaster connection would allow a service to Hull, Grimsby and under my plan, a faster link to York. Also good in disruptions as a diversion.

The HS2 line needs to be intregrated with existing lines and services to reduce time being wasted walking around or train hopping with luggage. And what happens if a landslip happens anywhere on HS2?
There's no alternative line for the trains!

The High Speed UK is the best proposal for a network I've seen.

Edit, just a thought here...
What about East Leeds Parkway as a combined HS station interchange??
 
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bluenoxid

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Why not close Crossgates through to Micklefield and then run trains fast through that sector with HS3.

Open Light Rail on parallel roads to serve those areas.
 

NotATrainspott

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By building over existing lines I mean El-Train style viaducts above lines outside of Sheffield City Centre, on approaching lines.
Yes the speed would be slow, but all trains should stop in Sheffield and deceleration takes ages.

Derby's connection is so a Leicester-Derby to Leeds/Manchester route could exist.
A Doncaster connection would allow a service to Hull, Grimsby and under my plan, a faster link to York. Also good in disruptions as a diversion.

The HS2 line needs to be intregrated with existing lines and services to reduce time being wasted walking around or train hopping with luggage. And what happens if a landslip happens anywhere on HS2?
There's no alternative line for the trains!

The High Speed UK is the best proposal for a network I've seen.

Edit, just a thought here...
What about East Leeds Parkway as a combined HS station interchange??

The HSUK proposals don't actually have to be buildable. HS2 Ltd does a lot more than just attacking maps of Great Britain with crayons: every route and option they look at is fully worked out, costed and tested against what is needed. If the same level of detailed analysis were done on other proposals for HSR in the UK they would look a lot worse than their proponents might say.

Why not close Crossgates through to Micklefield and then run trains fast through that sector with HS3.

Open Light Rail on parallel roads to serve those areas.

It's considered better to keep light rail segregated when running out to the suburbs, as the services can be faster and cheaper and they only need to start sharing the road in places where there are serious traffic restrictions.
 

MarkyT

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There's a lot to commend a through HS station in central Leeds, preferably alongside the existing classic station for easy interchange. This could allow the Newcastle HS2 trains (initialy classic compatible but perhaps future UIC gauge) to also serve Leeds en route, as well as Cross Pennine HS3 trains, which even if they use an entirely new line through the hills are highly likely to be classic compatible too so they could then serve a range of destinations in the north west running via an upgraded Manchester Victoria complex. The approaches to such a Leeds through station need not be built for the very highest speed, as of all of the stops en route, Leeds is such a major hub as to be a desirable stop for all HS trains that pass through the area. In broad capacity terms and assuming that HS3 trains would partly substitute for existing Transpennine services, an additional pair of tunnelled HS tracks east - west under the city could release capacity on the existing constrained corridor for more local traffic. Cross Country NE - Birmingham trains could also find this new cross Leeds HS link useful if they were operated by suitable CC HS stock.
 

WatcherZero

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I think most likely will be HS2 and HS3 share an alignment into Leeds (grade separated 4 track) from quite a distance out with a new station box adjoining Leeds station gaining efficiencies of scale from two new lines and it continues to be a spur rather than a through route.
 

tbtc

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Noone has proposed any other reasonable site for the Sheffield station than Meadowhall - it would cost so much for a city centre station that Sheffield could have a metro instead.

Likewise noone has really come up with a proposal that is much better than Toton (Breaston is a marginal gain at best)

Agreed.

Whilst the selfish side of me would find a station in the centre of Sheffield handier (closer to where I currently live, though in twenty years time who knows where I'll be...), Meadowhall is the only option.

Given the topography of Sheffield and the fact that there's no room below Sheffield Midland (the river Sheaf occupies that space) or above Sheffield Midland (Park Square, tram line, Sheffield Parkway etc would get in the way of that alignment), I don't think you'll squeeze any route through the centre of the city.

Sheffield doesn't have a big enough market for HS2 services to warrant slowing down Leeds/Newcastle services significantly by a slower/more expensive alignment to serve Sheffield City Centre.

Any "spur" for Sheffield would probably struggle to attract more than one train an hour (so be very expensive!) and would be at the expense of any Meadowhall station (i'm not naive enough to think we can eat our cake and still have it).

Sheffield Victoria really isn't the answer - it's not exactly "city centre" (it's outside the ring road's boundaries), it's not connected to any local trains etc, little room for parking - it's only being suggested by people nostalgically trying to solve everything with how things were fifty years ago.

Meadowhall is further out of town (though handier for the M1, Rotherham, Barnsley etc), but it's only five minutes from Sheffield Midland on the train (currently eight services an hour, which is "turn up and go" in my book!), it's got direct trams to the University/ Hillsborough/ South East Sheffield, it's got a bus interchange, it's got regular trains to much of the rest of South Yorkshire (so much better connected for public transport than Victoria).

Much of the same goes for the East Midlands - neither Nottingham or Derby are significant enough to warrant slowing longer distance services down by a slower alignment through them, any "spur" to serve Nottingham would be at the expense of an "East Midlands" station and wouldn't warrant a Derby station as well (and vice versa).

The problem is that people are applying old logic to this new scheme - HS2 isn't intended to follow the old fashioned ways of operation - which is why many cities get termini rather than "through" stations (e.g. a London - Newcastle service isn't intended to stop at Birmingham).

The fact that the section with the best BCR is one that goes against "traditional" ways of operating (not serving central Nottingham/ Derby/ Sheffield, not giving Leeds a through station) seems to have ruffled a few feathers, but I follow the logic of the people who've designed it.

You're not going to create a truly "fast" service if you have it trying to link every pair of cities that the route passes near (e.g. a London - Manchester service serving Birmingham en route). Why spend billions on *fast* London - Newcastle infrastructure and then slow it down by pathing services through central Nottingham, central Sheffield & central Leeds?

And using imaginary figures, if you offered me a billion pounds with the option of either spending it on diverting HS2 through Sheffield Midland *or* using that money on an improved heavy rail/ light rail infrastructure between Dore/ City Centre/ HS2 station at Meadowhall/ Swinton then I'd take the latter - much more useful for many more people on a more regular basis. If that means an extra ten minutes on the tram between my local stop and the HS2 station (i.e. the additional time to get to Meadowhall on the tram compared to taking the tram to Sheffield Midland) then fair enough.

ETA - the proposed HS2 station in Leeds is probably as close as you can get to the platforms at the current Leeds City station without disrupting existing lines and causing months of disruption - maybe you need a travellator to save a minute's walk, but it's basically as near as you're going to get to the current infrastructure without closing the busy station for huge periods
 
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MarkyT

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The fact that the section with the best BCR is one that goes against "traditional" ways of operating (not serving central Nottingham/ Derby/ Sheffield, not giving Leeds a through station) seems to have ruffled a few feathers, but I follow the logic of the people who've designed it.

You're not going to create a truly "fast" service if you have it trying to link every pair of cities that the route passes near (e.g. a London - Manchester service serving Birmingham en route). Why spend billions on *fast* London - Newcastle infrastructure and then slow it down by pathing services through central Nottingham, central Sheffield & central Leeds?

Totally agree with that logic and support the out of town options for the East Midlands and South Yorkshire hubs, although I'm coming round in favour of Breaston over Toton if it the route can be squeezed into the motorway corridor, as that could offer a lot less disruption to other rail facilities and services in construction whilst potentially connecting easily with a turn up and go frequency local classic service to both Derby and Nottingham, as well as further afield.

Leeds is another matter as it's such a major city and interchange. The existing station is severely constrained particularly to the east so a through HS station there, taking as much express traffic as possible out of the existing station could offer some useful relief, albeit at the huge cost of a cross city tunnel. However that could also allow a better service between Leeds and London as Newcastle services could all be routed via a stop at Leeds. The 'cross country' HS services proposed from Newcastle to Birmingham would also call along with various HS3 trans-pennine services offering significantly improved combined frequency on various legs in and out of Leeds. A real HS Mega hub perhaps worthy of further investigation.

ETA - the proposed HS2 station in Leeds is probably as close as you can get to the platforms at the current Leeds City station without disrupting existing lines and causing months of disruption - maybe you need a travellator to save a minute's walk, but it's basically as near as you're going to get to the current infrastructure without closing the busy station for huge periods

I'm not against the initial Leeds proposal if that is what offers best value in the end. I think if covered, bright and heated a pedestrian link can be perfectly acceptable over a few hundred metres, especially if equipped with moving walkways, after all we use these without question at airports. As well as providing a link between the stations, the walkway would also effectively provide a new entrance to the classic station, well south of the current one, and possibly offering an attractive route for local commuters moving between classic trains and the many employment and other activities to the south of the city centre whilst avoiding a number of difficult busy road crossings en route.
 
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edwin_m

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Journey time savings from London to York and beyond are not much more than half an hour under the current HS2 Phase Two proposal. The new franchise promises to accelerate some journeys on the existing route so the time saving with HS2 may reduce further. If the HS2 trains for the northeast go through Leeds on a slow route with an extra station stop then the journey time saving between London and York or beyond will be small if anything.

Far better to keep the Newcastle trains bypassing Leeds and let HS3 provide the fast service between the two. This probably also limits the number/length of extra platforms needed at Leeds.
 

NotATrainspott

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Totally agree with that logic and support the out of town options for the East Midlands and South Yorkshire hubs, although I'm coming round in favour of Breaston over Toton if it the route can be squeezed into the motorway corridor, as that could offer a lot less disruption to other rail facilities and services in construction whilst potentially connecting easily with a turn up and go frequency local classic service to both Derby and Nottingham, as well as further afield.

Leeds is another matter as it's such a major city and interchange. The existing station is severely constrained particularly to the east so a through HS station there, taking as much express traffic as possible out of the existing station could offer some useful relief, albeit at the huge cost of a cross city tunnel. However that could also allow a better service between Leeds and London as Newcastle services could all be routed via a stop at Leeds. The 'cross country' HS services proposed from Newcastle to Birmingham would also call along with various HS3 trans-pennine services offering significantly improved combined frequency on various legs in and out of Leeds. A real HS Mega hub perhaps worthy of further investigation.



I'm not against the initial Leeds proposal if that is what offers best value in the end. I think if covered, bright and heated a pedestrian link can be perfectly acceptable over a few hundred metres, especially if equipped with moving walkways, after all we use these without question at airports. As well as providing a link between the stations, the walkway would also effectively provide a new entrance to the classic station, well south of the current one, and possibly offering an attractive route for local commuters moving between classic trains and the many employment and other activities to the south of the city centre whilst avoiding a number of difficult busy road crossings en route.

The HS2 infrastructure is designed for the service patterns that will run, rather than the other way round. The three London-Leeds trains will stop at East Midlands Hub and Meadowhall and these three stops will fill the train completely. It therefore makes very little sense to extend it further, since no Newcastle/Teesside/York passengers would be able to use it. Newcastle+Teesside+Yorkshire combined represents the same sort of major passenger source that justifies a direct service as Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds or Scotland does. The HS2 London-NE services can stay non-stop through the stations served by the Leeds ones to keep journey times low and to keep seats available for NE passengers. Any passengers from the NE to East Midlands or Meadowhall would use the Birmingham train, and any to Leeds would use the TransPennine service to Newcastle.
 

MarkyT

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The HS2 infrastructure is designed for the service patterns that will run, rather than the other way round. The three London-Leeds trains will stop at East Midlands Hub and Meadowhall and these three stops will fill the train completely. It therefore makes very little sense to extend it further, since no Newcastle/Teesside/York passengers would be able to use it. Newcastle+Teesside+Yorkshire combined represents the same sort of major passenger source that justifies a direct service as Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds or Scotland does. The HS2 London-NE services can stay non-stop through the stations served by the Leeds ones to keep journey times low and to keep seats available for NE passengers. Any passengers from the NE to East Midlands or Meadowhall would use the Birmingham train, and any to Leeds would use the TransPennine service to Newcastle.

OK I can see that if the Newcastle trains did go via Leeds (stop) then ran non- stop to London, they would be faster and more attractive than the Leeds terminators and could abstract passengers, making load balancing more of a challenge. Trans-pennine 'HS3' services are looking more and more likely to be a classic intercity upgrade rather than a segregated HS line, even if there is new construction across the hills, and those trains would in that scenario continue to run through the classic station at Leeds. The east side capacity constraint at Leeds will remain however.
 

NotATrainspott

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OK I can see that if the Newcastle trains did go via Leeds (stop) then ran non- stop to London, they would be faster and more attractive than the Leeds terminators and could abstract passengers, making load balancing more of a challenge. Trans-pennine 'HS3' services are looking more and more likely to be a classic intercity upgrade rather than a segregated HS line, even if there is new construction across the hills, and those trains would in that scenario continue to run through the classic station at Leeds. The east side capacity constraint at Leeds will remain however.

It would be possible to run ostensibly-classic trains on the HS2 spur without problems, since it's limited to the same 230km/h speed which IEPs and Javelins are capable of. If the Manchester-Leeds line is limited to ~230km/h, the only trains that would need to be full HS2 spec would be ones continuing to Newcastle on a new captive line. It wouldn't be difficult for Hitachi to create a version of the IEP with retractable steps so that they could call at standard TSI-compliant platforms either. If you are building a new east-west station in Leeds for TransPennine services, you might as well build it with 400m TSI-compliant platforms so that in the future it can be a full component of the future high speed rail network, even if the line isn't built to the same speed as the north-south lines.
 
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