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HS2 Leeds station location

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edwin_m

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It would be possible to run ostensibly-classic trains on the HS2 spur without problems, since it's limited to the same 230km/h speed which IEPs and Javelins are capable of. If the Manchester-Leeds line is limited to ~230km/h, the only trains that would need to be full HS2 spec would be ones continuing to Newcastle on a new captive line.

Ordering some more classic compatible sets, possibly in a shortened formation, would give the same performance as the other trains using the HS infrastructure. Or as any high speed line north of Leeds would have far fewer trains than its capacity of 18TPH or so, it wouldn't matter if the HS3 trains couldn't quite match the timings of the HS2 ones.
 
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NotATrainspott

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Ordering some more classic compatible sets, possibly in a shortened formation, would give the same performance as the other trains using the HS infrastructure. Or as any high speed line north of Leeds would have far fewer trains than its capacity of 18TPH or so, it wouldn't matter if the HS3 trains couldn't quite match the timings of the HS2 ones.

Over the entire length of Leeds-Newcastle, the difference between a train running at 230km/h and one running at 330-360-400km/h would be noticeable.
 

edwin_m

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Over the entire length of Leeds-Newcastle, the difference between a train running at 230km/h and one running at 330-360-400km/h would be noticeable.

Probably so, but the slower train would be making more stops where it would either go into a platform loop or even leave the new line to serve a classic station. The faster train could then overtake.
 

NotATrainspott

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Probably so, but the slower train would be making more stops where it would either go into a platform loop or even leave the new line to serve a classic station. The faster train could then overtake.

It's still not something that is advisable. HS1 gets away with it because the only speed differential is between Ebbsfleet and Ashford and the Eurostars aren't frequent enough for there to be a problem. A Leeds-Newcastle line would have 3tph minimum of 330-360km/h HS2 services and could have many more TransPennine services.
 

JRM

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Very interesting serious discussion.

But my question is... new lines in London are tunnelled, and quite right, too. Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds, Nottingham(?), Sheffield (?) desperately need tunnels to run a joined-up rail service. Why aren't they getting them?

(When I say Birmingham, I mean the Midland Railway Bristol to Derby Route)
 

quantinghome

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Very interesting serious discussion.

But my question is... new lines in London are tunnelled, and quite right, too. Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds, Nottingham(?), Sheffield (?) desperately need tunnels to run a joined-up rail service. Why aren't they getting them?

(When I say Birmingham, I mean the Midland Railway Bristol to Derby Route)

Costs outweigh the benefits, I guess.

Tunnels are very expensive, so they only get built if it's even more expensive or awkward to build at the surface - for example if a surface route required a huge amount of demolition. So Birmingham and Leeds get surface connections (becuase the space is available), but Manchester and London HS2 approaches are tunnelled.

I'd like to see connections from HS2 to the existing routes into Nottingham and Sheffield so classic compatible services can run into the city centre stations. But then I'm not an expert and the costs may again outweigh the benefits.
 

CdBrux

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The West & North Yorkshire Chamber of Commerce have come up with an interesting proposal to incorporate the HS2 station into the existing Leeds station and also make quite a few changes to the local services as a result. It is also considering 'HS3' (called TransNorth, which seems a better name) services as well.

http://leeds.wnychamber.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/HS2-Leeds-Station-Chamber-position-July-2015.pdf


2 Background and Overview
2.1 In 2013, HS2 Ltd announced detailed plans for new rail infrastructure connecting London with the West and East Midlands, Manchester, Sheffield and Leeds.
2.2 The current published scheme envisages a new HS2 station in Leeds located south of the River Aire at New Lane (opposite Asda House and adjacent to Bridgewater Place).
2.3 The plans are for this to be a terminus located as a separate building roughly a quarter of a mile from the existing mainline City Station.
2.4 In order to ensure that all of the Leeds City Region benefits from high speed services, there will need to be additional investment into existing infrastructure and we acknowledge that good progress with this is being made through the LEP Strategic Economic plan and the West Yorkshire Combined Authority Plus Transport Plan.
2.5 In March 2014, Sir David Higgins was appointed as chair of HS2 Ltd and one of his first engagements was an event organised by the Chamber in Leeds - at this meeting, he restated HS2’s commitment to Leeds and the need for HS2 to form part of an integrated network rather than be a standalone piece of infrastructure.
2.6 In late 2014, Chancellor Osborne announced plans for HS3 (now TransNorth rail) as a solution for east-west rail connectivity (Liverpool to Sheffield, Hull and Newcastle via Manchester and/or Leeds) – this brings with it additional implications for Leeds’ city centre station and presents further opportunities to rethink its location and approaches.
2.7 In March 2015, David Cameron, speaking in Leeds, announced that Sir David Higgins had been tasked with relooking at Leeds station options and will be bringing his recommend-ations back to government in autumn 2015.


I leave others with a knowledge of the area and existing services to comment on it's merits or otherwise, however it is good that significant local input is being prepared and looking at the wider picture of HS2, TransNorth and local services all together.
 

Haydn1971

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Looks about as expensive as Euston to me and also TransNorth ? How very Leeds centric ignoring that Sheffield has just as great a need for new Trans Pennine links with Manchester - We haven't got the M62 to fall back into and with just two semi-fast services per hour, it's not really a turn up and go kinda service that Leeds enjoys. HS3 needs to give the same benefits to all three major centres of Manchester, Leeds and Sheffield, with onward benefits to Liverpool, Hull and Newcastle.
 

TrickyHex

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Looks about as expensive as Euston to me and also TransNorth ? How very Leeds centric ignoring that Sheffield has just as great a need for new Trans Pennine links with Manchester - We haven't got the M62 to fall back into and with just two semi-fast services per hour, it's not really a turn up and go kinda service that Leeds enjoys. HS3 needs to give the same benefits to all three major centres of Manchester, Leeds and Sheffield, with onward benefits to Liverpool, Hull and Newcastle.

Fully understand and agree with the need for good Manchester - Sheffield services, this is far superior to the New Lane option for Leeds.
 

Haydn1971

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Fully understand and agree with the need for good Manchester - Sheffield services, this is far superior to the New Lane option for Leeds.


To a degree yes... It is very destructive though, in particular between the Hilton Hotel and Kirkgate - although I'd accept much of the destruction are buildings of low merit and in the case of the Hilton, would want to reorganise their building to integrate better with the new station. A new viaduct running east would fit very nicely beyond Lower Briggate too.

However, the proposal looks hugely expensive - whilst I'd imagine HS2 contributing an amount equal to the cost of building a station at New Lane, I'd expect the rest would need to come in part from HS3, regional investment fund (private sector), network rail and also contributions from direct beneficiaries such as Hilton etc - it's going to be a tough ask given the money already invested at Leeds in the last 15 years.
 

TrickyHex

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However, the proposal looks hugely expensive.

Understood, but New Lane would come at a cost and HS3 works in any form would cost as well. This may be the price for doing it properly...

... And isnt it similar to the sort of thing which is going on at London Bridge?

Now, how does a decent cross Pennine line which serves Manchester, Sheffield, and Leeds fit in!!!
 

Haydn1971

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Understood, but New Lane would come at a cost and HS3 works in any form would cost as well. This may be the price for doing it properly...

Kinda missed my point - HS2 will only find the cost of the basic station - let's say £750m, the 2002 rebuild at Leeds cost about £260m, perhaps £400m at today's prices - so, add in another rebuild, the cost of a HS3 station at say £500m, plus a new bus station, £100m, then compensation to land and building owners of prime Leeds real estate, you'll be lucky to have change from £3bn - HS2 will only put in the cost it was going to spend on the New Street leaving a shortfall of £1.75Bn after HS3 has paid its £500m contribution - that's roughly what the 15 year Leeds City Region Investment Fund was for the whole of West Yorkshire, plus York. Just because it is right, doesn't mean it will get funding.



... And isnt it similar to the sort of thing which is going on at London Bridge?

Yes, but then London Bridge was last redeveloped in 1972-1978, not 2002 as Leeds was - Leeds will still be in its project pay back period.



Now, how does a decent cross Pennine line which serves Manchester, Sheffield, and Leeds fit in!!!


Via a HS2 junction at Hoyland, Barnsley to Central Manchester via a 4 track Piccadilly-Deansgate corridor then onwards to Liverpool
 

TrickyHex

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Kinda missed my point

Via a HS2 junction at Hoyland, Barnsley to Central Manchester via a 4 track Piccadilly-Deansgate corridor then onwards to Liverpool

Not sure I did. This will be more expensive than the New Lane option but surely there must be some savings from synergy between HS2 and TransNorth. Any ideas for any alternative plans which would offer the same level of connectivity more economically?

As for a 4 track Piccadilly to Deansgate viaduct in central Manchester would this not be more expensive than 4 tracking through central Leeds?
 

HSTEd

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These massive inner-city reconstructions would break the bank.
I still think using the HS2 spurs at Manchester and Leeds is the best option.

Even at 230km/h you can make up for going around the houses in short order.
 

Haydn1971

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These massive inner-city reconstructions would break the bank.

Absolutely - which is why HS2 avoids them

I still think using the HS2 spurs at Manchester and Leeds is the best option.


For HS2 yes... For HS3, that's a tad more difficult and why I suspect it will end up being a hybrid of new very fast track, new classic fast track and painfully slow bits on existing track in central Leeds, Sheffield and Manchester using signalling systems to prioritise HS services over local services.
 

edwin_m

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They could possibly build part of this HS station initially and have TransNorth trains transferring onto the existing line. Later on they could quadruple the viaduct, and if they built the eastern link from Neville Hill as UIC gauge HS2 trains could go back towards the south without reversing.
 

MarkyT

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Looks an excellent concept and solves the big capacity issue to the east by quadrupling through the city, offering scope for local service changes and enhancements whilst accommodating 'Transnorth'. Demolition doesn't look too bad. If the extra tracks over the viaducts were engineered 'cleverly' like the additional Thameslink tracks near London Bridge only a few small buildings need be affected, and the low-speed impact on journey time of curvature and tight clearance through this section would be negligible as it is so close to a station where all trains always stop. The bridge over Lower Briggate already looks like it was built originally for four tracks incidentally. If the 400m platforms were located a little further west and some gentle platform curvature was considered acceptable (Waterloo International was definitely not dead straight after all!) then the whole complex might fit roughly within the existing station footprint (at least as far as width is concerned). That would avoid encroaching on the cluster of very large buildings to the immediate south of the station.
 
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matacaster

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I just cannot see a doubledeck station working

The alternative is to reconfigure Leeds station and allow through services out of Leeds towards a site that is around south of Waterloo Street.

Unfortunately, any central Leeds station is going to require some demolition work. The question is how HS2 delivers maximum connectivity.

Has anyone considered extending Leeds station onto the present car park between Riverside way and the river itself - I think it used to be a fairly large engineering factory, but not certain? If I remember correctly, the old viaduct that used to go to Leeds Central across from Holbeck high level follows one of the edges of the site.

A station extension to cater for local terminating traffic here at the level of the old viaduct previously mentioned might free up some platform space in existing station.

Alternatively, a new terminating HS2 station on stilts crossing existing 6 road throat to provide sufficient train length. ie not directly above the station with all the massive cost entailed, but just crossing the tracks, canal and river.

Both of the above would be quite easy to link to existing concourse etc and other platforms by travelator / bridge / lift.

Ok, where have I gone wrong?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I'm struggling to see a through station solution for Leeds that doesn't involve huge amounts of tunnelling. Whilst the current terminus ideas for both North and South of Leeds Station could be made to work for services heading south, having a reversing train solution for HS3 wouldn't.

Would your wildest thoughts need tunnelling under canal and / or river? If so even deeper and more expensive.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Very interesting serious discussion.

But my question is... new lines in London are tunnelled, and quite right, too. Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds, Nottingham(?), Sheffield (?) desperately need tunnels to run a joined-up rail service. Why aren't they getting them?

(When I say Birmingham, I mean the Midland Railway Bristol to Derby Route)

London has a lot of clay and, I believe though not certain chalk (both comparatively easy tunnelling). The Pennines are essentially hard rock and extremely expensive and slow to tunnel through.
 

scarf ace

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An excellent proposal from the W&NYCC, with many of the ideas seemingly taken from the HSUK scheme. Unfortunately HSUK seem to have taken their City Review Papers off their website, but most of their ideas for Leeds are discussed in their Yorkshire Rail Strategy here:
http://www.highspeeduk.co.uk/HSUK%20150607%20yorkshire%20rail%20strategy.pdf

Yes, I'm sure it will cost more than a standalone HS2 terminus station, but HS2 needs to do things like this if it's to be a useful part of the national rail infrastructure and not just an expensive segregated train set.
 

modernrail

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I think this proposal is pretty sensible. I would actually say that some of the proposals should be out in place whether or not the HS2 trains are routed into the main station. In particular:

- 4 tracking to the east of Leeds City should be prioritised, as should a new station near the Minster. This would allow for grade separation, lots more through services (A Leeds s-bahn) and a decent interchange with the bus/coach station and access to Quarry Hill/Markets/Victoria Quarter. If you zoom in nice and close on google you can see that the bridge over Lower Briggate has space for 4 tracks and so you are talking about very minimal demolition from there on. Extremely low grade buildings of no strategic importance and some extremely useful strips of open land, the value of which will already be depressed because they are near an operational railway and road access is constrained.

I cannot begin to count the number of times I have stood waiting on Leeds station for a Huddersfield/Manchester bound service for it to be held up in some sort of nonsense on the eastern approaches. I think this should have been done years ago.

- Taking some services away from the western approaches is also very sensible and so I like the idea of the new line through the Aire Valley zone. This is a potentially significant employment area completely underserved by rail at the moment. However, I also think it is sensible to consider whether some of these services should be switched to tram-train operation. This would mean a new line could run through the city centre on the NGT loop route and avoid the station altogether but interchange through city-square. I would personally go further, and send this line out through the other side of Leeds, down Kirkstall Road (to serve the massive development zone down there) - join the Harrogate line to Horsforth and then leave that line for a spur up to the Aiport and then to Yeadon village.

- There is also the option of a hybrid solution. Terminating London to Leeds trains run into New Lane. Trains continuing further north run through the station. These trains could be shorter formation if platform length is an issue that can not be overcome.

- Another way to create some more capacity might be to install a dive down to the north of the station (on the current car park site) to take some trains into the Dark Arches. However, I have a feeling the arches are too constrained for this to work. However, the arches obviously provide an extremely obvious solution to capacity problems in the station concourse itself. You could put together a massive circulation area down there and lots of retail to to help reduce pay-back periods for that part of the project.

At the end of the day, grade separation throughout the region, an overloaded and over complicated western approach and an under capacity easter approach have been the achilles heel of the West Yorkshire network for years. These proposals would do a lot to address that. I do think tram-trains for the Aire Valley and Castleford/Knottingley services should be considered, as should a complete reorganisation of services south west of Leeds if HS2 happens, bearing in mind capacity will be released through Wakefield Westgate. The services to the south east of Leeds have always felt like a mess.

One other point I would make is that if platform length could be solved - might it be sensible to send all York/Scotland trains through Leeds and save the expense of the link to the East? I think the answer is probably no because there is enough demand for both and the eastern link helps Scotland and York stay connected if Leeds station has operational issues.
 
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