HS2 Northern Branches Discussion

[HSTEd]

Would that mean that a non-stopping train from Leeds (say) having to pass through junctions at Meadowhall, Totton, joining Phase 1 and Birmingham and OOC would lose around 3 to 4 minutes on the total journey and has that sort of effect been factored into the oft quoted journey times?

The journey times are actually rather conservative.

As is the capacity study, since it assumes the trains only just meet UIC TSIs with respect to emergeancy braking distance and acceleration.

Trains are available which massively exceed those requirements. (Who wants 4000m stopping distance from 320kph instead of 11000m?)
They have the trains stopping using friction service brakes only in case of points failing to gain interlock.
No use either of emergeancy braking or of non friction reliant brakes such as those now deployed on ICE 3s.

 

[nerd]

Cameron apparently due to present the Phase 2 route in the Commons this coming Monday;

- which explains the delay; yesterday's Euro speech had to be got out first.

route leaked to the Leicester press by the leader of Leicestershire County Council.

Plans to run a £32 billion high-speed rail route through Leicestershire could jeopardise a project that will create 6,000 jobs, it has been warned.

On Monday, Prime Minister David Cameron is expected to announce details of the route of phase two of the HS2 scheme.

The first phase will see 225mph passenger trains running between London and Birmingham, while phase two will see lines branch out in a Y-shape to both Leeds and Manchester.

Leicestershire County Council leader Nick Rushton said he has been told the Leeds-bound section will cut through the county passing through a huge tunnel underneath East Midlands Airport.

Coun Rushton said he understood it would re-emerge in the middle of a site earmarked for a £300 million rail distribution depot, to the north of the airport, which would employ 6,000 people, planned by developers Roxhill. He said: "This line will cut right through north west Leicestershire.

"It will enter at Appleby Magna and broadly follow the route of the M42 corridor. When it gets to Diseworth, it will disappear down a great tunnel and come back up exactly where the Roxhill development will be.

"It will wreck that very important employment opportunity."

Coun Rushton said he did not think it would be possible for both schemes to go ahead. He said: "The developers would contribute millions to improving the road infrastructure, so if it doesn't happen there will be no Kegworth bypass and none of the motorway junction improvements. The dualling of the A453 will not happen either."

Coun Rushton spoke to the Mercury yesterday ahead of a phone conversation with Secretary of State for Transport Sir Patrick McLoughlin, who briefed him on the scheme.

Coun Rushton said he feared the route would affect communities including Appleby Magna, Measham, Ashby and Lockington where there may be compulsory purchases of homes and businesses.

He said: "I doubt it will be very popular. It would make more sense to run it up the A38 corridor and run it into Derby to use the station there."

After Monday's announcement a consultation is likely to begin in May.

North West Leicestershire District Council leader Richard Blunt said: "It does look like the route will run through the Roxhill site and I doubt we can have both."

North West Leicestershire MP Andrew Bridgen said he did not want to speculate on the route before it was officially announced but has questioned the value of the project.

Neither the HS2 Ltd – a Government-owned firm – or the Department of Transport would comment on the route though both said there would be an announcement imminently. Nobody from Roxhill was available for comment.

 

[steamdrivenand]

Cameron apparently due to present the Phase 2 route in the Commons this coming Monday;

- which explains the delay; yesterday's Euro speech had to be got out first.

route leaked to the Leicester press by the leader of Leicestershire County Council.

I don't know the area at all but it seems they've done a good job in trying to avoid built up areas to minimise disturbance and noise. As to the Councillors pet shed project I would've thought the developers should be able to plan round a tunnel portal and bit of permanent way, it's not like they're building a marshalling yard is it?

One thought strikes me though, if Manchester Airport warrants a station why does East Mids Airport not warrant one, especially when the line passes right under the airport?

 

[Ironside]

One thought strikes me though, if Manchester Airport warrants a station why does East Mids Airport not warrant one, especially when the line passes right under the airport?

I would imagine it's because Manchester airport is over four times busier, and very high speed rail only works to it's potential if you don't stop too often. But I can imagine that it would be frustrating for the airport and it's pax.

 

[MidlandMainlie]

East Midlands Airport isn't really busy enough to warrant an underground HS2 station, It has a few budget airlines but most of its income comes from air freight which is of little benefit HS2

 

[tbtc]

Coun Rushton said he understood it would re-emerge in the middle of a site earmarked for a £300 million rail distribution depot

So they are building a railway right through the middle of a rail distribution depot?

If only there were some way that this could be turned into a positive...

 

[joeykins82]

Not sure there are any potential positives from a high-speed passenger-only rail service being run through the middle of a planned rail freight distribution centre...

 

[WatcherZero]

Height differential as its emerging from a tunnel would prevent them simply just building a viaduct through the yard as well.

 

[steamdrivenand]

So they are building a railway right through the middle of a rail distribution depot?

If only there were some way that this could be turned into a positive...

Yep, notice the emotive inclusion of the word 'great' tunnel in the Councillors description, the word 'tunnel' on its own sounds much less threatening. Sounds like a closed mind to me.

 

[nerd]

Not sure there are any potential positives from a high-speed passenger-only rail service being run through the middle of a planned rail freight distribution centre...

But are there any real negatives?

 

[daniel3982]

Would've been a real opportunity to grow the airport though. A bit of national infrastructure forethought for once.

 

[Haydn1971]

Would've been a real opportunity to grow the airport though. A bit of national infrastructure forethought for once.

Yes, my thoughts exactly, East Midlands is currently a busy freight terminal, it's too much of an opportunity to miss, with a people mover link to classic rail near Hemmington in the north and East Midlands terminal in the south.

There's even space for a second runway to the south of A453 - a much better site for an expanded "Midlands" airport hub than Birmingham :-/

 

[steamdrivenand]

I suppose if it does grow its air passenger base then they could build a station later under the airport or to the south but it's a sort of chicken and egg situation I guess. I recall that the airport does seem to specialise in cargo and parking aircraft on M1 embankments.

 

[HSTEd]

I would imagine it's because Manchester airport is over four times busier, and very high speed rail only works to it's potential if you don't stop too often. But I can imagine that it would be frustrating for the airport and it's pax.

I am not sure why the 30 seconds or so added to non stop journey times by the deployment of an OOC style station at East Midlands Airport is going to reduce the benefits of high speed rail significantly.

But there we go.

 

[rebmcr]

I am not sure why the 30 seconds or so added to non stop journey times by the deployment of an OOC style station at East Midlands Airport is going to reduce the benefits of high speed rail significantly.

But there we go.

Isn't it more about paths than total time?

 

[HSTEd]

Isn't it more about paths than total time?

This isn't the core.

Paths are not limited, unless you can think of 18-20 trains per hour that will be using the branches.

The arguments used to wriggle out of stations at secondary destinations no longer apply north of Birmingham.

 

[steamdrivenand]

This isn't the core.

Paths are not limited, unless you can think of 18-20 trains per hour that will be using the branches.

The arguments used to wriggle out of stations at secondary destinations no longer apply north of Birmingham.

As a neighbour of the WCML just south of Crewe it seems to me they only seem to run a dozen trains an hour, that's on 4 tracks. With the premium HS2 prices they'll be lucky to run 4 an hour on 2 tracks.

Maybe my perception of WCML frequency is influenced by long periods of nothing happening.

 

[Haydn1971]

With the premium HS2 prices

There are no indicatations that it would be a premium service.

 

[steamdrivenand]

There are no indicatations that it would be a premium service.

I thought that the whole HS2 project was predicated on premium prices for expense account customers, leaving WCML for cheapskate real people?

 

[WatcherZero]

I thought that the whole HS2 project was predicated on premium prices for expense account customers, leaving WCML for cheapskate real people?

The business case is based on a 10% ticket premium over conventional rail services.

 

[Haydn1971]

I thought that the whole HS2 project was predicated on premium prices for expense account customers, leaving WCML for cheapskate real people?

The WCML won't exist between London & Manchester - that's the reason HS2 is being built, to open up the existing WCML to stopping services to accomodate passenger growth.

Back to East Midlands - the Leicestershire Councillor is suggesting that a tunnel under East Midlands is on the plans due Monday - if that's the case, I don't see how a 400kph curve can fit into the Toton sidings without bulldozing half of Long Eaton or building an unnecessary Tunnel - this also reinforces the case for a HS2 station at East Midlands airport rather than Toton, with a classic rail link to central Derby & Nottingham.

A direct route along the A42 and under the airport suggests a direct line to Sheffield to the west of the M1, running just west of Ilkeston & Eastwood, between Jacksdale & Selston, tunnel under South Normanton, through a gap between Brimington and Staveley and onwards west of Killamarsh, east of Beighton and into Meadowhall - Alternatively under Brimington and directly into Sheffield (hopefully)

 

[Philip Elliott]

The WCML won't exist between London & Manchester - that's the reason HS2 is being built, to open up the existing WCML to stopping services to accomodate passenger growth.

How do you think people will get from Milton Keynes to Manchester or from Stoke or Macclesfield to London - take the LM service?:roll:

 

[HSTEd]

How do you think people will get from Milton Keynes to Manchester or from Stoke or Macclesfield to London - take the LM service?:roll:

There would presumably be one hourly Wolverhampton train (Watford, Rugby, Coventry, Birmingham Int, Birmingham), one hourly Liverpool train (Stafford, Crewe, Runcorn) and one hourly Manchester train (MKC, Stoke, Macclesfield, Stockport) which will provide all (except for Wilmslow but oh well) those places with a London service.

And uses 3tph instead of the 7 at present.

 

[Haydn1971]

There would presumably be one hourly Wolverhampton train (Watford, Rugby, Coventry, Birmingham Int, Birmingham), one hourly Liverpool train (Stafford, Crewe, Runcorn) and one hourly Manchester train (MKC, Stoke, Macclesfield, Stockport) which will provide all (except for Wilmslow but oh well) those places with a London service. And uses 3tph instead of the 7 at present.

If not even less, travellers going long distance will be funnelled onto HS2 to ensure it makes money from day one - Especially the places you mention above, that could realistically use HS2.

The existing mainlines north will be taken apart and reassembled around the core HS2 franchise, WCML, MML & ECML express services to the north being provided by the HS2 franchise, "Northern Express" or similar, with services not using the HS line between major stations in the two triangles formed either side of the core Birmingham - London route being realigned into two, quite possibly a single "Midland Express" service, with hopefully an IEP type service supported by an aging fleet of 390's & 22x's starting in places like Doncaster with a lesser service linking more major places along the way, gradually building to a stronger express service closer to London.

Great Western will continue essentially as it is, TransPennine may end up being expanded next year to include some of Northern's longer distance service and ultimately will end up with a mix pf express commuter type units servicing northern cities, CrossCountry will probably end up with a mix of IEP type trains, a small number of HS2 classic compatable a to use the spare capacity on the northern legs, supported by aging 390/22x units to suit the routes in any new franchise.

The express franchises will of course continue to be complemented by the current local services, albeit more focused on the needs of the city regions / metro ITA's - something that's coming in the next few years - where the say on what services run where and when will be devolved to a more local level than it is now.

 

[steamdrivenand]

Back to East Midlands - the Leicestershire Councillor is suggesting that a tunnel under East Midlands is on the plans due Monday - if that's the case, I don't see how a 400kph curve can fit into the Toton sidings without bulldozing half of Long Eaton or building an unnecessary Tunnel - this also reinforces the case for a HS2 station at East Midlands airport rather than Toton, with a classic rail link to central Derby & Nottingham.

I wondered about that too H when I looked at Google Maps and traced the Councillors route. I'm wondering whether he's using descriptive licence and the southern tunnel portal is somewhere around Diseworth, rather than at Diseworth, which gives quite a wide area for it to be.

This could mean that the line runs just north of east under the eastern end of the airport, through the south east corner of the Councillors pet project. They're going to have fun getting over the M1 at what is always a bad pinch point and navigating through the water features nearer Toton.

 

[si404]

There would presumably be one hourly Wolverhampton train (Watford, Rugby, Coventry, Birmingham Int, Birmingham), one hourly Liverpool train (Stafford, Crewe, Runcorn) and one hourly Manchester train (MKC, Stoke, Macclesfield, Stockport) which will provide all (except for Wilmslow but oh well) those places with a London service.

Actually, I believe the current plan is to have all WCML trains call at MKC.

Also Coventry and Wolverhampton are likely to get 2tph (I've not seen a plan with less, other than the one that gives Walsall-Euston trains), and that 2tph is going to be fast south of Coventry (ie just stopping at MKC). This will carry on to Liverpool.

Wilmslow and Stockport will have Manchester Airport HS2. Stoke's not a huge traffic generator, so I can imagine 1tph with calls at Watford and 1 or 2 others south of Stoke as well as MKC.

Runcorn is looking like it will have HS2 trains using part of phase-2, Crewe is less certain, and Stafford won't. However the plans have always been for one of the Liverpool trains to still come off at Lichfield post phase-2. The Chester/North Wales WCML trains will still call at Crewe, but might pick up Stafford. I imagine, however, that Rugby, Tamworth or Nuneaton would be more likely.

I'd also imagine a classic line train to Preston and beyond (Blackpool or Carlisle - after all the Scotland-London trains won't skip most stops, even Carlisle). That'll pick up Crewe and make sure that the major Trent Valley stops (inc Rugby) all have 1tph fast (ie not via Northampton) to London. Will probably stop at Watford as well.

That's 4tph Intercity, but those intercity trains stop more (save West Midlands) than now.

 

[Greybeard33]

Wilmslow and Stockport will have Manchester Airport HS2.

How would this work in respect of public transport links? Currently Stockport's only rail link to the Airport is the roundabout route reversing at Manchester Piccadilly - having got into Piccadilly it would clearly be quicker to change to HS2 at the Central Manchester station. The bus journey from Stockport to the Airport takes 50 minutes!

Stockport currently acts as a major interchange for passengers to London from the Buxton and Mid-Cheshire lines as well as the local area. It has 3tph to Euston with a 2 hour journey time. An additional 15 minutes to Piccadilly, plus a longer transfer time to the HS2 service, would greatly erode the journey time reduction.

 

[steamdrivenand]

How would this work in respect of public transport links? Currently Stockport's only rail link to the Airport is the roundabout route reversing at Manchester Piccadilly - having got into Piccadilly it would clearly be quicker to change to HS2 at the Central Manchester station. The bus journey from Stockport to the Airport takes 50 minutes!

Stockport currently acts as a major interchange for passengers to London from the Buxton and Mid-Cheshire lines as well as the local area. It has 4tph to Euston with a 2 hour journey time. An additional 15 minutes to Piccadilly, plus a longer transfer time to a less frequent HS2 service, would greatly erode the journey time reduction.

Having checked the map and train times it seems that Stockport is a case of 'so near and yet so far'. To get to Manchester Airport there appears to be a choice of going to Wilmslow, changing trains to head back north to the airport or head north into Piccadilly and wait for the train to reverse and head south to the airport. Both versions take up almost as much time as the bus. With transfer time etc you're probably talking about getting on for an hour before you're on an HS2 heading out of Manchester.

Compare that to a 4tph 2 hour service to London and you begin to wonder why they bothered with HS.

 

[si404]

There have long been plans to build a direct Stockport - Manchester Airport link, diverting the Mid Cheshire line service away from Altrincham. An HS2 station near the airport would be a good catalyst for such a link. There's also tram options (and even going via St Werburgh's Road won't take an hour between Stockport and the Airport, but obviously there's a change at East Didsbury if you so want), driving/taxi (shock horror!), etc.

We're still about 65 hours away from the Manchester Outskirts station being announced, with a location. We're 20 years from seeing it open. There's plenty of time to plan and build the support infrastructure, especially when a lot of relevant schemes are pretty far along and just needing some minor modifications, money and momentum.

We might even see Birmingham Grand Central getting built for phase-1 (which would require Network Rail to get their heads out of their own rectums), such is the timescale of this project.

 

[Greybeard33]

There have long been plans to build a direct Stockport - Manchester Airport link, diverting the Mid Cheshire line service away from Altrincham. An HS2 station near the airport would be a good catalyst for such a link. There's also tram options (and even going via St Werburgh's Road won't take an hour between Stockport and the Airport, but obviously there's a change at East Didsbury if you so want), driving/taxi (shock horror!), etc.

We're still about 65 hours away from the Manchester Outskirts station being announced, with a location. We're 20 years from seeing it open. There's plenty of time to plan and build the support infrastructure, especially when a lot of relevant schemes are pretty far along and just needing some minor modifications, money and momentum.

Which would still leave passengers from Stockport and the Buxton line needing to make two additional changes (including a shuttle between the existing Airport station and the Manchester Outskirts HS2 station, which is likely to be more than a mile away). Tram journeys on the new Airport line are likely to be very slow (it is intended mainly for local travel to Wythenshawe and Chorlton) and the plan to extend the E Didsbury line to Stockport has been abandoned as too expensive.

HS2 to Manchester may be 20 years off, but these "support infrastructure" schemes also have long lead times and there seems to be no prospect of funding for them being announced anytime soon.