HS2 Northern Branches Discussion

[steamdrivenand]

Very true. And so refreshing that you're not at all concerned that Sheffield is rapidly becoming a suburb of Meadowhall.

Before I retired (6 years ago) I used to have clients in central Sheffield. I'd motor down to Meadowhall, park in the Centre and wander over and pick up a tram which dropped me outside the building I was visiting. Very civilised and much better than the one time I tried to drive into the city when the jams and lack of obvious parking was a nightmare for an outsider.

And before you ask, going by train would've involved car into Harrogate, Harrogate to Leeds, then Leeds to Sheffield. A blast down the A1/M1 plus tram was much quicker.

 

[Haydn1971]

From Skyscraper City

Came from http://assets.dft.gov.uk/hs2-phase-two-media-assets/

 

[steamdrivenand]

Times front page tomorrow (Monday)

http://www.politicshome.com/uk/article/70808/the_times_monday_28th_january_2013.html

- East Midlands hub "between Derby and Nottingham" - isn't Toton in Nottingham rather between - I'm still thinking EMA
- Parkway Station at Manchester Airport and "branch" into Manchester - no surprise

Can you actually read that Haydn?

I s'pose Toton is on the western side of Nottingham so could be considered to be 'between' but there's Long Eaton between Toton and the M1 and then Derby west of the M1 so it's a stretching things a bit.

Personally I'd say it was Nottingham but politically they've got to make it sound like it's shared. Meadowhall will shortly be defined as between Sheffield and Rotherham on that basis.

Thinking on I'm wondering whether we're witnessing the development of new cities based around shopping centres and high speed stations. The old cities based around defunct heavy industries fading away as the new ones develop? That's too deep for this time of night. You can bet that developers are already scrabbling around for land near Toton for a mega shopping complex with obligatory Disney shop, gilded everything and plastic palm trees.:roll:

 

[Haydn1971]

If you zoom it, it's just about readable...

Years of practice reading archived documents that have been copied several times and figuring out horrible scribbling on letters from the public

 

[swt_passenger]

Except the preferred HS2 line plan was handed over to the DfT last March and it's taken them nearly a year to get it published. When it was given to them they said it would take 5 or 6 months to publish. So what have they been doing to it in the extra 5 months?

The Ministers pronouncements clearly show that they expect some horse trading over the route they're publishing tomorrow, so they're expecting to change stuff ...

I don't know where you are getting this extra 5 months, cos in Jan 2012 they said they'd make the public announcement about the broad outline route of HS2 phase 2 in Dec 2012, so they are only a month late. They also said then that the final decision on the detail of phase 2 would be announced in Jan 2014. So nothing seems to have changed, really. Phase 1 went through similar phases.

 

[daniel3982]

The videos on the HS2 website show detailed station locations but not lines (it just paints them as the crow flies).

The Leeds Station will be at New Lane, just to the south of the river aire approx 300m from city station. Sheffield will be at Meadowhall. Nottingham at Toton Sidings, Manchester at Piccadilly and Davenport Green near the airport.

 

[rebmcr]

There is no clear route into the city centre from the south - even if you come in from the east along the ship canal there are still big problems - of course any city centre approach is going to make use of deep bore tunnelling - that's a given

Actually, if you look carefully you'll see that there's absolutely no development (and barely any structures at all) within around 100m of the western edge of Princess Road, starting at Princess Parkway and running all the way up to its absurdly spacious junction with Moss Lane.

That's a holdover from an abandoned safeguarded route for a motorway, but unfortunately it's kinda difficult to reach Piccadilly from its terminus. (There're also very wide central reservations along its length but that's just coincidence — they buried the old tramlines rather than pull them up.)

 

[GooGav]

Hmmm. No new station at Crewe it would appear?

 

[steamdrivenand]

So now we know.

Despite the Press saying that Crewe was to be on a spur, it's not, they're running the line slap bang under the middle of the WCML in twin tunnels and the HS2 platforms will be in the basement of the existing site. The two lines run one above the other from about a mile south of Crewe. It means they have to demolish the bridge over the line on the A500 which was only built around 10 years ago and rebuild it a few yards north.

There are plans to build a depot to the west of Crewe marshalling yard but it appears to be an 'infrastructure' not a train maintenance depot.

Just south of Crewe the two lines diverge with HS2 taking a more westerly alignment a few hundred yards from the WCML. This means that it's in a cutting for much of the way south and has to dive through a short tunnel at Bar Hill, Madeley, where the WCML copes with a deep cutting.

Well that's it round my parish, I'm sort of left underwhelmed.

 

[PR1Berske]

From this map - https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...ta/file/68988/hs2-arp-000-dr-rt-55001_3-0.pdf

Water Orton to Birchmoor
Birchmoor to Tonge
Tonge to Long Eaton
Long Eaton to Trowell
Trowell to Killamarsh
Killamarsh to Tinsley
Tinsley to Blackburn
Blackburn to Cold Hiendley
Cole Hiendley to Church Fenton
Cold Hiendley to Woodlesford
Woodlesford to Hunslet
Hunslet to Leeds (New Lane Station)


From this map - https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...ata/file/69037/hs2-msg-wm0-zz-dr-rt-40014.pdf


Streethay to Swynnerton
Swynnerton to Madeley
Madeley to Hough
Hough to Crewe
Hough to Winterbottom
Winterbottom to Warburton
Warburton to Lowton
Lowton to Bamfurlong
Ardwick to Manchester Piccadilly
Winterbottom to Rostherne
Rostherne to Ardwick
Rostherne to Warburton

 

[Ivo]

Is there a reason the line seems to completely bypass Stoke et al. (population ~360,000) with no apparent link at all? Or have I missed something?

(Sorry, been ill )

 

[steamdrivenand]

Actually, thinking about it, it's actually Manchester (both stations) that are on a spur with the mainline going further north to connect to WCML again. I suppose that provides flexibility in timetabling and gives the possibility of running fast trains to/from the north without stopping at Manchester and provides an extra 50 miles or so of high speed running.

But it definitely looks like there's been a damage limitation exercise on Tatton Constituency with the route creeping round the edge to the detriment of Middlewich and Northwich residents. I suppose it might be said that it's to the advantage of Crewe as well, though whether it deserves it is another matter.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Is there a reason the line seems to completely bypass Stoke et al. (population ~360,000) with no apparent link at all? Or have I missed something?

(Sorry, been ill )

Everybody says Stoke doesn't provide much inter city traffic and I guess there'd be little option but to take it right through the middle of Osbournes Constituency (cynical moi?), possibly with a spur off to the west to link up with WCML for Liverpool services, adding even more angst for our darling Chancellor (of course his predecessor was Chancellor Darling).

 

[PR1Berske]

This will take me a while so don't be too uncharitable!

Route from Water Orton to Tinsley goes through these constituencies:

North Warwickshire (Dan Byles, Conservative)
North West Leicestershire (Andew Bridgen, Conservative)
Rushcliffe (Ken Clarke, Conservative)
Erewash (Jessica Lee, Conservative)
Broxtowe (Anna Soubry, Conservative)
Nottingham North (Graham Allen, Labour)
Broxtowe (again)
Ashfield (Gloria de Piero, Labour)
Bolsover (Dennis Skinner, Labour)
Chesterfield (Toby Perkins, Labour)
North East Derbyshire (Natascha Engel, Labour)
Sheffield South East (Clive Betts, Labour)
Rother Valley (Kevin Barron, Labour)
Rotherham (Sarah Champion, Labour)
Sheffield South East (again)

 

[daniel3982]

Hmmm. No new station at Crewe it would appear?

Nope, the line passes underneath Crewe without stopping, classic compatible services however will stop en-route to Liverpool with a journey time of less than an hour to London (but no link to Manchester).

 

[PR1Berske]

The next bit of the route into Church Fenton

Sheffield Brightside and Hillsborough (David Blunkett, Labour)
Penistone and Stocksbridge (Angela Smith, Labour)
Barnsley East (Michael Dugher, Labour)
Barnsley Central (Dan Jarvis, Labour)
Barnsley East (again)
Hemsworth (Jon Trickett, Labour)
Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper, Labour)
Morley and Outwood (Ed Balls, Labour)
Elmet and Rothwell (Alec Shelbrooke, Conservative)
Selby and Ainsty (Nigel Adams, Conservative)

 

[steamdrivenand]

Nope, the line passes underneath Crewe without stopping, classic compatible services however will stop en-route to Liverpool with a journey time of less than an hour to London (but no link to Manchester).

I hadn't realised that the HS2 lines aren't having platforms at Crewe, but the tunnel will be a through and through with Compatibles coming off/going on at the above ground link just south of Crewe and proceeding into the above ground station. Will the presence of Compatibles on the short stretch of WCML south of the station reduce the available paths on the WCML up and down to Stafford etc?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Nope, the line passes underneath Crewe without stopping, classic compatible services however will stop en-route to Liverpool with a journey time of less than an hour to London (but no link to Manchester).

Well I don't think you can travel Virgin West Coast Manchester to Liverpool now so nothing different in that and they are at least electrifying the relevant line now.

 

[hwl]

Actually, thinking about it, it's actually Manchester (both stations) that are on a spur with the mainline going further north to connect to WCML again. I suppose that provides flexibility in timetabling and gives the possibility of running fast trains to/from the north without stopping at Manchester and provides an extra 50 miles or so of high speed running.

The Manchester station spur being accessible from further North (i.e. Preston, Glasgow) with a triangular junction is also very sensible as that could speed up (non HS) Glasgow - Manchester services and release capacity on existing lines for local services.

Now why couldn't they also put in a triangular junction for Leeds - York route too?

 

[PR1Berske]

The next bit of the route into Church Fenton

Sheffield Brightside and Hillsborough (David Blunkett, Labour)
Penistone and Stocksbridge (Angela Smith, Labour)
Barnsley East (Michael Dugher, Labour)
Barnsley Central (Dan Jarvis, Labour)
Barnsley East (again)
Hemsworth (Jon Trickett, Labour)
Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper, Labour)
Morley and Outwood (Ed Balls, Labour)
Elmet and Rothwell (Alec Shelbrooke, Conservative)
Selby and Ainsty (Nigel Adams, Conservative)

The only addition on the Yorkshire arm is Leeds Central (Hilary Benn, Labour)

 

[stuartmoss]

What is the likelihood of there being some sort of light rail / tram link from the station at Toton to East Midlands Airport?

 

[JohnB57]

What is the likelihood of there being some sort of light rail / tram link from the station at Toton to East Midlands Airport?

Who'd use it? It's difficult to imagine sufficient people choosing to travel by HS from London or Leeds to East Midlands Airport to justify anything more than two buses per hour.

 

[PR1Berske]

First part of the NW route (Lichfield to Ashton-in-Makerfield, it seems to be, oddly!)

Lichfield (Michael Fabricant, Conservative)
Stafford (Jeremy Lefroy, Conservative)
Stone (Bill Cash, Conservative)
Crewe and Nantwich (Edward Timpson, Conservative)
Eddisbury (Stephen O'Briend, Conservative)
Tatton (George Osborne, Conservative)
Warrington South (David Mowat, Conservative)
Altrincham and Sale West (Graham Brady, Conservative)
Warrington North (Helen Jones, Labour)
Leigh (Andy Burnham, Labour)
Makerfield (Yvonne Forangue, Labour)

 

[sheff'd victoria]

From this map - https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...ta/file/68988/hs2-arp-000-dr-rt-55001_3-0.pdf

Water Orton to Birchmoor
Birchmoor to Tonge
Tonge to Long Eaton
Long Eaton to Trowell
Trowell to Killamarsh
Killamarsh to Tinsley
Tinsley to Blackburn
Blackburn to Cold Hiendley
Cole Hiendley to Church Fenton
Cold Hiendley to Woodlesford
Woodlesford to Hunslet
Hunslet to Leeds (New Lane Station)


From this map - https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...ata/file/69037/hs2-msg-wm0-zz-dr-rt-40014.pdf

Just to let people know that their is a Blackburn near Meadowhall in Sheffield and not the one in Lancs

 

[PR1Berske]

Just to let people know that their is a Blackburn near Meadowhall in Sheffield and not the one in Lancs

Hehe, that would be quite the diversion!

 

[pemma]

I wonder if a Manchester Airport station on HS2 is the best solution. Given the proposed route and location of it to the motorway I wonder if Ashley station should be closed and replaced by a 'North Cheshire Parkway' station that acts as an interchange between local trains and HS2 as well as providing somewhere for the large number of business people in the area to park their cars and catch the HS2 to London. (Manchester Airport doesn't really have room for Park & Ride facilities.) You could then have a shuttle rail service between 'North Cheshire Parkway' and Manchester Airport.

 

[swt_passenger]

Who'd use it? It's difficult to imagine sufficient people choosing to travel by HS from London or Leeds to East Midlands Airport to justify anything more than two buses per hour.

The buses to the airport from East Midlands Parkway were abandoned due to lack of use weren't they? The theory that there's a huge latent market for rail travel to EMA doesn't seem to hold up.

 

[PR1Berske]

Almost done!

Route into Piccadilly

Tatton (George Osborne, Conservative)
Wythenshawe and Sale East (Paul Goggins, Labour)
Manchester Withington (John Leech, Liberal Democrat)
Manchester Gorton (Sir Gerald Kaufmann, Labour)
Manchester Central (Lucy Powell, Labour)

 

[Midlandman]

I haven't read the entire thread and I apologise if it has been said earlier, but I am unconvinced that HS2 will bring many benefits to the North. In my experience, many firms are so utterly convinced of the need for a London headquarters that the chief benefit of HS2 will be to allow their workers to live further afield and still have a reasonable commuting time. Far from encouraging growth in the North, HS2 will merely suck more jobs southwards. I'd sooner see the £33 billion spent on upgrading the present network (capacity increases, electrification, line re-openings, longer trains. more staffed stations etc) than on a vanity project who's financial case is far from proved.

 

[starrymarkb]

The buses to the airport from East Midlands Parkway were abandoned due to lack of use weren't they? The theory that there's a huge latent market for rail travel to EMA doesn't seem to hold up.

EMA is far more a Cargo then passenger airport but there is a half hourly shuttle bus from Derby station to the Airport, I suspect with many more services calling at Derby (plus passengers from the city and workers at the Cargo Terminals) that is more sustainable.

The EMA station strikes me as a compromise between Derby and Nottingham - Think Haute Picardie

 

[JohnB57]

I haven't read the entire thread and I apologise if it has been said earlier, but I am unconvinced that HS2 will bring many benefits to the North. In my experience, many firms are so utterly convinced of the need for a London headquarters that the chief benefit of HS2 will be to allow their workers to live further afield and still have a reasonable commuting time. Far from encouraging growth in the North, HS2 will merely suck more jobs southwards. I'd sooner see the £33 billion spent on upgrading the present network (capacity increases, electrification, line re-openings, longer trains. more staffed stations etc) than on a vanity project who's financial case is far from proved.

I agree 100% with this. The north/south divide is a myth anyway, but it's a useful soundbite when trying to win round Joe Public, as are many other things, such as sub-1 hour journey time to Birmingham.

Investing such vast sums in rail is an entirely good thing - it's just a shame that we have to justify it in such an obtuse way, ignoring for example previous experience of shortfalls versus projection in passenger numbers on HS1.

 

[6Gman]

Can anyone giv e a definite answer re Crewe?

Underground HS2 station or just a tunnel for trains to rush through?