HS2 Northern Branches Discussion

[Stats]

Is there any junction linking HS2 with the MML? I couldn't see one anywhere near Toton, HS2 just flies over Trent Junction.

Trent Jn would have been difficult, but I would have thought there is an argument for linking with the MML somewhere, enabling diversionary routes & other route options for classic compatibles.

Non planned as far as I know, but the Command Paper raises it as a possibility.

"There is also scope for new services, not starting or ending in London. Leicester could gain a service towards Leeds from the existing line north, joining HS2 in the East Midlands. Subject to further electrification, and a connection to the high speed line, Bristol could gain services running on the existing line to Birmingham, and then on at high speed towards Leeds and Manchester, Newcastle and Scotland."

 

[JohnB57]

Sheffield City Council wanted an HS2 station in Sheffield city centre. It came to the conclusion that a city centre station would produce far greater benefits than one at Meadowhall. Sheffield is also by far the largest city in the area, so an argument that a station at Meadowhall may be of more benefit to Rotherham or Barnsley is also not really very meaningful.

I can't respond in a reasonable way to the rest of your points as they are not reasonable points. How is saying Sheffield will still retain it's current services proving that Sheffield will benefit from HS2?

They're perfectly reasonable points and you do yourself a disservice by just dismissing my and anyone else's views on such an important subject. I'm not a rail expert but I have travelled very extensively so you may have decided not to agree with anything I say, but you ought to at least consider it and come back with counter arguments.

What was the rationale behind the council's conclusion? That a significant number of people wanted, needed and could afford to use a fast link from the city centre to London? I'd like to know where all the potential passengers will be going to or coming from.

I accept that Sheffield is the largest city in the area. But people don't live in the city centre, they live - and many also work - in outlying areas. And why shouldn't Rotherham, Barnsley, Wakefield and even my own area not derive a fair share of the benefits? I can drive to Meadowhall in less than 30 minutes, but the city would add at least another 20 or 30 minutes to that allowing for parking and I wouldn't do it.

Indeed, saying "but it will benefit Barnsley and Rotherham better than a central station", why not apply that to Leeds and build a station somewhere between Leeds, Wakefield and Bradford like the White Rose Centre (ah yes, because that would be equally absurd).

Because it's a terminus station? But yes, I agree. A parkway outside Leeds would be preferable. Except of course, like it or not, Leeds is more of a major centre than Sheffield and has symbolic value. Wakefield arguably should have a station, but it risks being a medium speed line if you get silly with stops and at least it links well with Meadowhall.

 

[JohnCarlson]

In terms of building the legs of HS2, London - Birmingham, Birmingham - Leeds, and Birmingham - Manchester. Will they build from South to North or both ends at once working inwards, or will construction take place at multiple locations simultaneously? What is the likely scenario?

Well the whole thing is still in consultation so nothing has been approved yet.

However I would recon it will be multiple construction sites for each phase as is usually the case.

John

 

[1978NWUK]

Not necessarily a bad thing!



This is a problem that looks set to continue for years to come. The bridge that runs along the frontage of the station is a major bottleneck that is difficult to resolve.

I'll second that, a big bomb and a bulldozer!!!

 

[steamdrivenand]

May I suggest reading all the background papers published by the DfT today. In them you'll find all the potential routes, station and depot sites that consultants considered, their attributes and liabilities and why they went for the chosen options. On the Lichfield/Manchester route they even considered going near Buxton as one of many to the east of Stoke and my favourite near Keele and up the east of the M6 was considered, as was an intermediate station on the A500 at M6 J17, but they all had issues. Some geological, some costwise, some were risky, some yielded little income etc, etc. Reading why Meadowhall was selected and others weren't might be illuminating.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'll second that, a big bomb and a bulldozer!!!

With the upgrade that commenced a few weeks ago they're adding a new station entrance to the south (opposite B&Q) and apparently it includes new taxi-rank and drop off zone. That should take some pressure off the bridge.

I also think a fair bit of traffic would head down the 'road of a thousand car dealers' to the roundabout and take the link road to the bypass if only they had built the link road and not chickened out 10 years ago. The roundabouts are there both ends but one has an exit that's just used by resting Polish HGVs and the other by napping PCs.

 

[els]

Has there been any word on how Scotland's proposed high speed line fits in here? Will they be planning a fairly non-direct route via Carstairs which adds to Glasgow-Edinburgh journey time but creates the best journey times from Glasgow/Edinburgh to London?

The current projections of 3 hr 30 from London to Edinburgh/Glasgow assume no high speed line in Scotland, but such a line would trim the time by say 10-15 mins if it's strategically placed.

Ironically, since this Scottish line will likely be completed before 'HS2' it is more worthy of the name HS2 - barring a yes vote next year of course!

 

[starrymarkb]

Non planned as far as I know, but the Command Paper raises it as a possibility.

"There is also scope for new services, not starting or ending in London. Leicester could gain a service towards Leeds from the existing line north, joining HS2 in the East Midlands. Subject to further electrification, and a connection to the high speed line, Bristol could gain services running on the existing line to Birmingham, and then on at high speed towards Leeds and Manchester, Newcastle and Scotland."

That would be sensible - especially given that Birmingham Classic and HS stations are going to be separate

 

[WatcherZero]

Has there been any word on how Scotland's proposed high speed line fits in here? Will they be planning a fairly non-direct route via Carstairs which adds to Glasgow-Edinburgh journey time but creates the best journey times from Glasgow/Edinburgh to London?

The current projections of 3 hr 30 from London to Edinburgh/Glasgow assume no high speed line in Scotland, but such a line would trim the time by say 10-15 mins if it's strategically placed.

Ironically, since this Scottish line will likely be completed before 'HS2' it is more worthy of the name HS2 - barring a yes vote next year of course!

Yes, they have chosen the western route splitting in Carstairs, while the eastern route was faster to Edinburgh it was 40 minutes slower to Glasgow. They also worked out the route from Wigan to just north of Preston but it was worked out to cost £2bn and since it bypassed Wigan and Preston losing their passenger revenue (a Preston parkway was considered but it was no better economically than the existing city centre station with the time advantage of skipping the city centre being matched by the loss of passengers not willing to travel to a parkway) it doesnt look economical for a grand dedicated high speed line to the border, I think they will find the best financial option would be to seperate freight paths and upgrade the existing Wigan/Preston stations and junctions and build new straighter alignments in the open countryside Preston-Carstairs and Preston-Wigan saving more modest amounts of time than the southern HS2, possibly a through station at Lancaster too.

 

[6Gman]

With the upgrade that commenced a few weeks ago they're adding a new station entrance to the south (opposite B&Q) and apparently it includes new taxi-rank and drop off zone. That should take some pressure off the bridge.

I also think a fair bit of traffic would head down the 'road of a thousand car dealers' to the roundabout and take the link road to the bypass if only they had built the link road and not chickened out 10 years ago. The roundabouts are there both ends but one has an exit that's just used by resting Polish HGVs and the other by napping PCs.

Who are 'they'? And in what sense did they 'chicken out' of building the link road?

 

[steamdrivenand]

Who are 'they'? And in what sense did they 'chicken out' of building the link road?

No idea who 'they' were, but they built a new dual carriageway (A500) Crewe bypass about 10 years ago (when we lived 100 odd miles away in North Yorks) and HS2 plans say their bridge over WCML will have to be bulldozed and rebuilt a few yards away in order to fit HS2 through.

Just at the eastern end of that bridge is a roundabout which has no exits except the bypass. However there's a putitive exit to the north that's a few yards long and used by HGV drivers for resting up.

There's a matching roundabout exit on the edge of Crewe (with the Honda dealer overlooking it). This exit is on the south of the roundabout and a quick look at Google Maps shows the two were obviously built to link up with about a third of a mile of road between them. Somehow it never happened when the bypass was built and hundreds of thousands of vehicles have had to run an extra 5 miles or so because that short piece of road is missing. Not only that but a lot of traffic that jams Crewe Station bridge would probably find it easier to use that missing road and reach the other side of Crewe via the bypass.

I believe the Council have a plan to build the missing link but who knows when?

 

[33Hz]

Is it me or is this scheme almost designed to make running a through service from Scotland and/or Tyneside with intermediate city stops as difficult as possible? Any such service would have to stop and reverse everywhere. Spurs everywhere are going to mean lots of half empty trains.

I'm totally in favour of HS2 but not this proposal.

 

[Rational Plan]

I refer the honourable gentlemen to the statement I gave some moments ago

There is a judicial review in the name of the Conservative leader of Buckinghamshire council, who has stated his intention to ensure Conservative councillors who are intending to fight the May 2013 County Council elections join him in supporting his bid.

There will be countless changes between now and next year, when the consultation is set to finish, in addition to countless changes every year from 2014 to 2030 and beyond. I refer you to a quote from today's Times from a resident of Alderley Edge who said "there won't be an inch of this built without complaint."

This being Britain, I suggest 2030 is very much an early guess rather than a firm ETA.

Crossrail, btw, seems to have been got on with without much delay, underlining my view that investment in the South is always hurried up, whilst anything to the north is always suspended until the very last moment, if indeed it's started at all.

Then you obviously paid no attention to the development to Crossrail at all. We almost had it built in the early 90's when the transport select committee in Parliament since we had a recession London does not need the capacity, do it later. Well a mere 20 odd years later it's now under construction and the location of branches have flipped around London, with other branches growing and shrinking. And there has been plenty of nimby complaints and protest despite most of it being underground.

Once again people need to lose their chip on their shoulder about London and the South.

While the construction schedule is slow, to match the level of funding. The change from a vague wish for a high speed line to a committed cross party support for a national network and launch of parliamentary bill in less then 5 years is lightening quick. The only comparison was the building of the motorway network. It seems all political parties now see it the same way.

 

[HSTEd]

One line with a single branch (which is what HS2 really is) does not fit any reasonable description of a "national network".

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I think one of the problems with Sheffield is not only the lack of space for a HS station to be tacked onto Midland, but the entire topography of the city. Meadowhall has the added advantage of space, connectivity (to existing rail services, the tram, and of course the M1), and the fact that a line through Tinsley/Meadowhall will be able to follow the route of the motorway, reducing the environmental impact.

As for the suggestion that Wakefield has a station on HS2? What! Wakefield is a pretty small place compared to those that are on the route, effectively it's a suburb of Leeds. I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that Westgate will still have at least 1tph on the ECML after HS2 opens, and that's really all it can justify. There are bigger/more important places in the North that have little or no direct services to London (Bradford; Huddersfield; Burnley; Blackburn; Middlesbrough), so what's so special about Wakefield? The same could of course be said about Crewe, though that's sensibly only going to get compatibles to Liverpool it seems.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

This consultation process is the reason we will all be 20 years older before we get to use this thing. They've announced today where they are going to build it, so why not just get the diggers out tomorrow and get building?

I think this is what is referred to as the democratic process rather then the one currently prevailing in Pyongyang where decrees are issued and carried out without any regard whatsoever to the populace at large. The current economic climate is one that the Treasury will be monitoring. However, the recent debate on the Trident nuclear submarine fleet replacement is another project that runs into the "many billions" bracket, but that is one where the Pentagon may well have unheard-of pressure application upon the British Government by them, whereas the HS2 project will not be seen by them as anything that will be useful to American interests.

 

[steamdrivenand]

On Sunday we were having a discussion about how Stockport residents get to the airport, which I summarised by coining 'so near and yet so far'. I think we all assumed that any HS2 station at Manchester Airport would link with the existing Classic line in some way.

However as far as I can tell from yesterdays plans the two stations are going to be at opposite sides of the airport with no connection at all. So to access HS2 Stockport residents will have to travel in to Piccadilly and pick up a train that probably stops at the airport on its way out of town. So much like today, except they'll have a choice of route and the HS2 option may be a couple of minutes quicker.

That got me thinking and I wonder how much traffic there'll be just between Piccadilly and the Airport given that although it's only a shortish distance it will be faster than a lot of the other local services. Will this mean that the Manchester end of HS2 will be rammed with commuters from Day 1, rather than the comfortable long distance inter city trains that are being promoted and will the same apply to the two Birmingham Stations?

 

[HSTEd]

There will be so many free paths at the Manchester end that you could easily run a 6tph shuttle to the Airport without using any of the inter-city trains.

And even a TGV Duplex that is 400m long can sustain something on order of 1300 seats.
(I assume running gear similar to that used on the V150, with two power cars and intermediate powered bogies).

Capacity will not be a problem.

 

[si404]

On Sunday we were having a discussion about how Stockport residents get to the airport, which I summarised by coining 'so near and yet so far'. I think we all assumed that any HS2 station at Manchester Airport would link with the existing Classic line in some way.

It was obviously going to be at Davenport Green. They merely didn't show things like Metrolink extensions, diversion of the Mid-Cheshire via the Airport hub, etc

Stockport is looking at 1tph to London stopping only at Macclesfield, Congleton, Stoke and Milton Keynes - a little bit slower than today, but still pretty decent, considering how easy and quick it would be to get to Davenport Green HS2, where trains to London take less than an hour.

Sure if you only go by the current rail network and ignore buses, trams, car, etc. it will take you the 25-44 minutes (as per national rail enquiries leaving today at 1700) to get to the existing Airport station (via Piccadilly). But, of course, you could just board HS2 at Piccadilly rather than faffing with the airport. Or take another mode of transport to Davenport Green. Or the new rail lines that TfGM wanted before HS2 was going to go via Davenport Green that will provide a 10 minute train service from Stockport station right to the HS2 station (with a minor diversion of the TfGM plans, which they probably have nearly finished already...) at Davenport Green.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

However as far as I can tell from yesterdays plans the two stations are going to be at opposite sides of the airport with no connection at all. So to access HS2 Stockport residents will have to travel in to Piccadilly and pick up a train that probably stops at the airport on its way out of town. So much like today, except they'll have a choice of route and the HS2 option may be a couple of minutes quicker.

It seems amazing to note that the only direct train service from Stockport to Manchester Airport at the present time is the First TPE Cleethorpes to Manchester Airport service, which requires a reversal at Manchester Piccadilly.

 

[northwichcat]

Stockport is looking at 1tph to London stopping only at Macclesfield, Congleton, Stoke and Milton Keynes - a little bit slower than today, but still pretty decent, considering how easy and quick it would be to get to Davenport Green HS2, where trains to London take less than an hour.

Do you have a source for that?

And why Congleton, especially when a Macclesfield is accommodated? I could see objections from other areas like Cheadle Hulme if Congleton is a new calling point and other stations aren't added.

 

[nerd]

Do you have a source for that?

And why Congleton, especially when a Macclesfield is accommodated? I could see objections from other areas like Cheadle Hulme if Congleton is a new calling point and other stations aren't added.

not Congleton;

19 trains per day Stockport, Macclesfield, Stoke on Trent, Milton Keynes Central, Euston.

3 peak time services starting at Manc Piccadilly,

8 per day starting at Glasgow

8 per day starting at Edinburgh

all from Appendix A to the Updated economic case for HS2 (August 2012)

 

[si404]

not Congleton;

I realized as soon as I posted that I'd mixed that up with the XC to the South Coast service, which gains the Congleton stop.

 

[starrymarkb]

It seems amazing to note that the only direct train service from Stockport to Manchester Airport at the present time is the First TPE Cleethorpes to Manchester Airport service, which requires a reversal at Manchester Piccadilly.

To be fair there is a half hourly bus running non stop from the Bus Station reaching the airport in 20 mins

 

[6Gman]

No idea who 'they' were, but they built a new dual carriageway (A500) Crewe bypass about 10 years ago (when we lived 100 odd miles away in North Yorks) and HS2 plans say their bridge over WCML will have to be bulldozed and rebuilt a few yards away in order to fit HS2 through.

Just at the eastern end of that bridge is a roundabout which has no exits except the bypass. However there's a putitive exit to the north that's a few yards long and used by HGV drivers for resting up.

There's a matching roundabout exit on the edge of Crewe (with the Honda dealer overlooking it). This exit is on the south of the roundabout and a quick look at Google Maps shows the two were obviously built to link up with about a third of a mile of road between them. Somehow it never happened when the bypass was built and hundreds of thousands of vehicles have had to run an extra 5 miles or so because that short piece of road is missing. Not only that but a lot of traffic that jams Crewe Station bridge would probably find it easier to use that missing road and reach the other side of Crewe via the bypass.

I believe the Council have a plan to build the missing link but who knows when?

The link to which you refer was always going to be developer-funded - no developer has yet come forward (though a scheme has received planning approval) - so the link has not been built.

If the current proposal goes ahead then the road will be built.

Nobody has "chickened out".

 

[steamdrivenand]

The link to which you refer was always going to be developer-funded - no developer has yet come forward (though a scheme has received planning approval) - so the link has not been built.

If the current proposal goes ahead then the road will be built.

Nobody has "chickened out".

Well as a relative newcomer to the area that's the impression I formed driving past both unused roundabout exits on a fairly regular basis and I'm probably not the only one. I can understand why a road would be developer funded if it was just an access point into a development and served no other purpose but the piece of road that should be built between those two roundabouts will be and should have been a vital artery for Crewe ever since the bypass was built. Think how many extra miles have been driven over those years to go round past Crewe Hall etc, not to mention the congestion that might've been eased elsewhere.

You sound like you might know a thing or two about that area. Can you explain to me why bright green polythene 2ft high film has been strung out round the site over the other side of the A500 bridge? It always was a tad intrusive in colour and is now getting to look very tatty with more holes than polythene, but I've not been to think up a reason for it being put there in the first place.

 

[terryc]

I'm curious as to why HS2 joins the WCML at Bamfurlong, South of Wigan, when the area to the North of WNW station would be (is!) a pinch point.
I'd have thought that running from Springs Branch area along the route of the old avoiding line to Red Rock would have been a better option. From there, the infrastructure is still (mostly) in place to 4 track all the way to Balshaw lane Jn. This would give much more pathing options both for HS2 and WCML traffic.

 

[JohnCarlson]

I think this is what is referred to as the democratic process rather then the one currently prevailing in Pyongyang where decrees are issued and carried out without any regard whatsoever to the populace at large. The current economic climate is one that the Treasury will be monitoring. However, the recent debate on the Trident nuclear submarine fleet replacement is another project that runs into the "many billions" bracket, but that is one where the Pentagon may well have unheard-of pressure application upon the British Government by them, whereas the HS2 project will not be seen by them as anything that will be useful to American interests.

I remember hearing that when Stalin ordered the Moscow underground to be built many people did not find out that their houses were due to be demolished until the men arrived at the door to demolish their houses.

This from Wikipedia "Soviet workers did the labor and the art work, but the main engineering designs, routes, and construction plans were handled by specialists recruited from the London Underground. The Britons called for tunneling instead of the "cut-and-cover" technique, the use of escalators instead of lifts, the routes, and the design of the rolling stock.[7] The paranoia of Stalin and the NKVD was evident when the secret police arrested numerous British engineers for espionage--that is for gaining an in-depth knowledge of the city's physical layout. Engineers for the Metropolitan Vickers Electrical Company were given a show trial and deported in 1933, ending the role of British business in the USSR"

 

[WatcherZero]

I'm curious as to why HS2 joins the WCML at Bamfurlong, South of Wigan, when the area to the North of WNW station would be (is!) a pinch point.
I'd have thought that running from Springs Branch area along the route of the old avoiding line to Red Rock would have been a better option. From there, the infrastructure is still (mostly) in place to 4 track all the way to Balshaw lane Jn. This would give much more pathing options both for HS2 and WCML traffic.

Crossing Wigan is hard which is why they decided not to. They did do work on an extension from Wigan to Brock north of Preston and suggest the route remain safeguarded but found it would cost £2bn more and at the same time generate less revenue (by skipping Wigan and Preston).

 

[steamdrivenand]

I'm curious as to why HS2 joins the WCML at Bamfurlong, South of Wigan, when the area to the North of WNW station would be (is!) a pinch point.
I'd have thought that running from Springs Branch area along the route of the old avoiding line to Red Rock would have been a better option. From there, the infrastructure is still (mostly) in place to 4 track all the way to Balshaw lane Jn. This would give much more pathing options both for HS2 and WCML traffic.

Look it up in the DfT docs, the Consultant Engineers will probably say why they didn't opt for it.

 

[tbtc]

It seems amazing to note that the only direct train service from Stockport to Manchester Airport at the present time is the First TPE Cleethorpes to Manchester Airport service, which requires a reversal at Manchester Piccadilly.

Given the need to find space for Liverpool, Southport, Blackpool, Barrow, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Newcastle and Middlesbrough with direct services to Manchester Airport, I guess there's a lot of competition for Stockport to have more paths there.