HS2 Old Oak Common

[jfowkes]

You could save maybe 15 seconds by rebuilding Steventon Bridge properly!

 

[Topological]

Even if they were, the amount of developers that have build very expensive new builds in the area in recent years would tie such a move down in the courts for years, there would be a new government before they could even touch it.

Keeping the Devils Advocate position a little longer, said developers would probably be much more interested in the land that was unlocked.

So essentially you are just left with some voters who happen to be on the Circle or Bakerloo lines and concerned that they no longer have a Paddington connection onto trains along the GWML. I would strongly doubt that would be a vote decider for many at all.

Given that not going to Euston has been such a big part of the HS2 discussion, what is the difference with not going to Paddington for GWR?

I doubt it will happen. We will get the much more realistic position of stops on GWR fast trains. The numbers will then show where people get off.

 

[The Planner]

Are there any plans to try and reduce journey times further west to compensate for all the GWR services being slowed down by the OOC calls to come (e.g. line speed bottleneck removals and/or general increases)? I recall they were supposed to do this for Thanet Parkway's opening, where line speed increases were planned to compensate for the extra time calling there adds, though according to the latest Sectional Appendix this doesn't seem to have happened.

Nope

 

[Benjwri]

Keeping the Devils Advocate position a little longer, said developers would probably be much more interested in the land that was unlocked.

I doubt it. You’ve just sent the value of the rentable space in their developments crashing down through the floor… Not to mention what land? If you get rid of Paddington you’re left with a massive station building, which is Grade I listed, so I wish you luck persuading any council to grant planning permission to demolish it.

So essentially you are just left with some voters who happen to be on the Circle or Bakerloo lines and concerned that they no longer have a Paddington connection onto trains along the GWML. I would strongly doubt that would be a vote decider for many at all.

Or a bunch of people who had just had their local station demolished, and now have to take a train out of the city to reach OOC, and a load of people travelling into London who have to do that same. The uproar about destroying a listed building would be quite something, just look at Liverpool Street.

Given that not going to Euston has been such a big part of the HS2 discussion, what is the difference with not going to Paddington for GWR?

I don’t think you’ll find many people who think not going to Euston is a good idea though…. They also aren’t demolishing Euston.

I also think it’s worth asking the question of where do you turn trains around in this scenario? Realistically you need about the same number of sidings as platforms. The only place with space for that, without purchasing land to either side of the railway, which would spiral costs, is Paddington.

 

[stuu]

Keeping the Devils Advocate position a little longer, said developers would probably be much more interested in the land that was unlocked.

So essentially you are just left with some voters who happen to be on the Circle or Bakerloo lines and concerned that they no longer have a Paddington connection onto trains along the GWML. I would strongly doubt that would be a vote decider for many at all.

Given that not going to Euston has been such a big part of the HS2 discussion, what is the difference with not going to Paddington for GWR?

I doubt it will happen. We will get the much more realistic position of stops on GWR fast trains. The numbers will then show where people get off.

This is up there with rebuilding Aberystwyth to Carmarthen as one of the least likely things which will ever happen

 

[brad465]

Nope

Quelle surprise.

 

[The Planner]

Quelle surprise.

HS2 can't fund enhancements out of their scope. Its like saying to them to fund a solution to Colwich, the issue isn't actually theirs, political decision has said all the trains dump out at Handsacre. Its NRs problem to find a solution and fund it at its base level. DfT will end up paying, but its a different pot.

 

[Trainman40083]

I doubt it. You’ve just sent the value of the rentable space in their developments crashing down through the floor… Not to mention what land? If you get rid of Paddington you’re left with a massive station building, which is Grade I listed, so I wish you luck persuading any council to grant planning permission to demolish it.

Or a bunch of people who had just had their local station demolished, and now have to take a train out of the city to reach OOC, and a load of people travelling into London who have to do that same. The uproar about destroying a listed building would be quite something, just look at Liverpool Street.

I don’t think you’ll find many people who think not going to Euston is a good idea though…. They also aren’t demolishing Euston.

I also think it’s worth asking the question of where do you turn trains around in this scenario? Realistically you need about the same number of sidings as platforms. The only place with space for that, without purchasing land to either side of the railway, which would spiral costs, is Paddington.

I see a massive strategic game being played out. HS2 will go to Euston, I fully expect it will go to Manchester and maybe even Leeds. Just 30 years too late

 

[zwk500]

Quelle surprise.

It's quite a different situatation - Thanet Parkway needed to not affect anything else so the stop time had to be recovered between the two junctions at either end.
OOC is intended to be a major part of the GWML timetable and was always going to require changes to that timetable to function. The loss of journey time to Paddington is offset somewhat by the better connectivity back to Heathrow and slight qualitative improvement (although this is subjective, I acknowledge) on the interchange to Elizabeth Line trains.

 

[uglymonkey]

Indeed, "Punt" it into the next parliament and you don't have to worry about it ( and if it happens you can criticise it wholesale). Never mind the country and it's people have to wait even longer eh...

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I doubt it. You’ve just sent the value of the rentable space in their developments crashing down through the floor… Not to mention what land? If you get rid of Paddington you’re left with a massive station building, which is Grade I listed, so I wish you luck persuading any council to grant planning permission to demolish it.

There are cases of major city centre stations being vacated by the railway and repurposed largely in their original structures:

Gare d'Orsay in Paris (museum).
Manchester Central (conference/exhibition centre).
Hamburg Altona (old station is now the town hall).
Puerto de Atocha in Madrid (tropical garden).

But I agree, most unlikely to happen in Bayswater.

 

[irish_rail]

The fact there are people on here who either suggest Paddington could be axed or who appear to support the principal of the idea speaks absolute volumes. There is a world outside of the WcML but plenty on here cannot quite comprehend the fact. Meanwhile in the real world, short formed 5 car GWR trains continue to provide packed intercity services across the south, with no prospect of any improvement in the next 20 years. But hey, we are getting a new line to Birmingham so all us GWR and XC users can just wind our necks in and shut up.....

 

[NSEWonderer]

This is up there with rebuilding Aberystwyth to Carmarthen as one of the least likely things which will ever happen

 

[Trainman40083]

This is up there with rebuilding Aberystwyth to Carmarthen as one of the least likely things which will ever happen

Certainly no real business case for that route. Must be why it shut under Beeching

 

[Yindee8191]

The fact there are people on here who either suggest Paddington could be axed or who appear to support the principal of the idea speaks absolute volumes. There is a world outside of the WcML but plenty on here cannot quite comprehend the fact. Meanwhile in the real world, short formed 5 car GWR trains continue to provide packed intercity services across the south, with no prospect of any improvement in the next 20 years. But hey, we are getting a new line to Birmingham so all us GWR and XC users can just wind our necks in and shut up.....

I completely agree that the GWML is not as good as it deserves to be, but the assertion that short-formed 5 car trains aren’t going to be improved in the next 20 years is not true at all. The only reason there are random short-formings is because of the cracks, for which a solution has been found and it’s being implemented as we speak.

 

[rower40]

This is utter genius. The country’s energy crisis gets fixed at a stroke, by attaching Brunel’s coffin to a generator as he spins in his grave.

 

[TrainBoy98]

This is utter genius. The country’s energy crisis gets fixed at a stroke, by attaching Brunel’s coffin to a generator as he spins in his grave.

I think Brunel would be 50/50 split on "oh, look at these wonderful 125mph+ trains" and "oh, dear god, what have they done to my railway"!

 

[irish_rail]

I completely agree that the GWML is not as good as it deserves to be, but the assertion that short-formed 5 car trains aren’t going to be improved in the next 20 years is not true at all. The only reason there are random short-formings is because of the cracks, for which a solution has been found and it’s being implemented as we speak.

No, the cracks is causing us to be one maybe two units short. The reasons for lack of IETs is many, everything from damage in service to poor component quality. Until some 5s are extended (which will never happen by all accounts) then things won't significantly improve on the Western.

 

[uglymonkey]

They don't seem "robust" enough, is that the right word?

 

[bigbigcheese]

As you say HS2 is all about the south east now. Another good reason to CAN the whole lot.

The solution is not to can the lot and get zero benefits for money spent, it's to go to a proposal that offers the most value for money, even though it's not the cheapest option. Which is to build an X shaped network instead of the current Y one. GreenGauge21 did an interesting report on the possibility of further extending HS2 to the South West with a junction south of Birmingham Interchange and the Leeds junction connecting to Bristol that would see the absolute maximum benefits for all of the HS2 infrastructure, despite also being the most expensive and thus politically unpalatable option...

 

[Trainman40083]

The solution is not to can the lot and get zero benefits for money spent, it's to go to a proposal that offers the most value for money, even though it's not the cheapest option. Which is to build an X shaped network instead of the current Y one. GreenGauge21 did an interesting report on the possibility of further extending HS2 to the South West with a junction south of Birmingham Interchange and the Leeds junction connecting to Bristol that would see the absolute maximum benefits for all of the HS2 infrastructure, despite also being the most expensive and thus politically unpalatable option...

Whether people like it or not, in less than 20 years they will be screaming for extra capacity. Now a high speed "X" would free up capacity for ever more local trains than there is now.

 

[wildcard]

A report from the BBC on residents and TfL concerns around road transport and bus access around Old Oak Common.

Residents living close to the new HS2 high-speed railway station at Old Oak Common in north-west London say they are "shattered" that their main road could be closed for four years.
Documents obtained by residents also show that Transport for London (Tfl) has some “high level concerns” about the station design for surface transport at Old Oak Common, calling parts of it “high risk”.

 

[Geogregor]

Excellent overview of the activities at OOC

 

[Snow1964]

Another you tube has been uploaded

 

[Snow1964]

Construction news has done an article on Old Oak Common station

Excavation of the station box was 73 per cent completed at the time of Construction News’ visit, with summer 2024 as the target date for completion. So far, Expanded has removed 872,561 tonnes of soil (or “muck” as Clark calls it), equivalent to half-a-million cubic metres out of its target of 680,000 cubic metres.

Among the various types of excavation equipment, CN sees a Hitachi Zaxis-5 ‘chameleon’ clamshell telescopic excavator reach into the box from the surface to claw some of the muck out. This is loaded into a Moxy dump truck, which is driven to the conveyor ‘muck bin’. The muck is then sent to the Willesden Euroterminal north of the site via a 1.7-mile-long conveyor belt system. Using the conveyor saved 37 tonnes of CO2-equivalent from its entry into service in November 2022 up to February this year – the same as keeping 51,332 lorry journeys off the road, says HS2 Ltd.

“At subsurface level we use more traditional excavators such as 14-tonne diggers that dig away at the clay and collect it into a pile for the chameleon to grab,” says Clark. “We’ve excavated a large portion of the west and east ends of the box already as these were a big focus in 2023.”

In summer 2024, the BBVS team aims to complete work on the prop beams on the intermediate level all over the box.

Inside the box, the floor is a sea of concrete and steel rebar. The first base slab concrete pour at the bottom of the western end of the box was completed in May 2023. This meant that the BBVS team had reached the HS2 track level and could continue to work eastwards to build the foundations for high-speed operational services.

There will be 95 pours for the base slab, each involving up to 1,000 cubic metres of concrete.

“We can’t do more as we’re a bit restricted as to how much concrete we can produce,” says Williams. The Old Oak Common site has its own concrete batching plant operated by Aggregate Industries subsidiary London Concrete – next year, the plant will have to be decommissioned to make way for continued construction work.

On average it takes about two weeks to form an area of base slab, including the time it takes to install the rebar for added structural stability.

After the initial excavation reaches its desired depth, says Williams, “we build it back up again with the base slab that’s about 2 metres deepand then the platform itself is a couple of metres above that”. The platform slabs sit on top of invert walls made from reinforced concrete. This leaves a void beneath the slabs which is used to run electricity and other services down the length of the platforms.

Expanded will install 32,000 tonnes of reinforcement in the box, in addition to the 10,000 tonnes already used in the FRC diaphragm wall, using steel rebar that is supplied by F Brazil Reinforcements and formed by hand on site.

Work on the second phase of the station is underway in parallel with the excavation of the underground box, says HS2 Ltd senior project manager Sam Clark, and construction of the new station’s permanent structures is 35 per cent complete.

Last year, Expanded began installing concrete piles for the station building and overground train platforms. Clark says that almost 1,400 of the 1,600 piles are now in place, “and we started to create the first platform structures in February”. These 250-metre-long platforms will allow Elizabeth Line and Great Western Railway services to run through the station. The foundations for the overground platforms are being installed and piling for platforms three to eight are largely complete, according to Clark. This enables Network Rail’s On Network Works team (including contractors such as Colas) to come in and install the track infrastructure. Clark expects these six overground tracks to go live by Christmas 2026.

The third and final stage of the project will see the construction of the station itself, including mechanical, electrical and plumbing (MEP) and fit-out. MEP work was awarded to the Anthro JV of French conglomerate Egis and UK-based SME VVB Engineering in late 2023, and the roof and envelope package was won by Lindner Prater. Only the fit-out package remains to be awarded.

I am not sure why GWR platforms are 250m when 2x5 car IETs are nearer 260m. Allowing bit of margin would have thought platforms should be 270m

Delivering HS2’s Old Oak Common station box | Construction News

The consortium digging out the box for HS2’s Old Oak Common station is operating on a grand scale Client: HS2 Ltd Contract value: £1.67bn (entire station)

www.constructionnews.co.uk

 

[Benjwri]

I am not sure why GWR platforms are 250m when 2x5 car IETs are nearer 260m. Allowing bit of margin would have thought platforms should be 270m

I think someone might've been a bit too liberal with their rounding here. The platforms are more in the region of 280m. (This is also publicly available on planning documents for the station)

 

[swt_passenger]

I think someone might've been a bit too liberal with their rounding here. The platforms are more in the region of 280m. (This is also publicly available on planning documents for the station)

I see they refer to them as ‘overground’ platforms. Just to confuse everyone talking about getting ‘Overground’ services to call…

 

[Benjwri]

I see they refer to them as ‘overground’ platforms. Just to confuse everyone talking about getting ‘Overground’ services to call…

Yes seems to be a pretty poor article to be honest.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Yes seems to be a pretty poor article to be honest.

It is about the civil construction primarily not the railway technical aspects and thanks @Snow1964 for posting.

 

[hwl]

Yes seems to be a pretty poor article to be honest.

Agreed the CO2 saving will be 37ktonnes not 37tonnes