HS2 Rolling Stock Contract Award

[LNW-GW Joint]

It is an interesting lesson in tarnished reputation. Operators experience with the Juniper and Coradia units seem to put people off ordering from Alstom but other manufactures keep getting orders despite well known issues.

Siemens, and later Hitachi and CAF, were in the wings with largely unblemished reputations.
Once you have a large fleet from X it's difficult to stop feeding the monster, because of "compatibility" issues.
If (old) Alstom had been allowed to bid for the EC EMUs (which went to Hitachi as 801s), things might have turned out differently.

There is also an inevitability about the consequences of large orders and manufacturing capacity.
When Siemens won the big Thameslink order, DfT ensured that Derby got multiple fill-in orders for the 387, leading to multiple Aventra orders.
Now Siemens, like (old)Alstom, is chasing its next UK win (Siemens did get the TfL tube deal, but that might not be the expected long-term bonanza).

 

[hwl]

It sounds like it was hardly worth Talgo or CAF bidding.

Agreed, everyone had to be seen to be bidding and also they learn a lot from this bidding experience.
CAF weren't part of the original 5 and were suing to get included when B&H teamed up, which made HS2's life easier for a time as a spare slot appeared.

Those doing the shortlisting and excluding were probably aware of the Mexican parliamentary inquiry into the award of the Mexico City Metro Line 12 contract as are at least 3 of the other bidders...

 

[greyman42]

Siemens, and later Hitachi and CAF, were in the wings with largely unblemished reputations.

I would not sat CAF had an unblemished reputation.

 

[Mikey C]

Siemens, and later Hitachi and CAF, were in the wings with largely unblemished reputations.
Once you have a large fleet from X it's difficult to stop feeding the monster, because of "compatibility" issues.
If (old) Alstom had been allowed to bid for the EC EMUs (which went to Hitachi as 801s), things might have turned out differently.

There is also an inevitability about the consequences of large orders and manufacturing capacity.
When Siemens won the big Thameslink order, DfT ensured that Derby got multiple fill-in orders for the 387, leading to multiple Aventra orders.
Now Siemens, like (old)Alstom, is chasing its next UK win (Siemens did get the TfL tube deal, but that might not be the expected long-term bonanza).

It's notable that Siemens offered to build a UK assembly plant to be the Tube order, which they never did for any of their previous ones. I'm sure they'll get follow up orders for the other Underground lines, because of the political embarrassment to the government if Goole closed

If Alstom had been paired up with Metronet instead of Bombardier, presumable they would have got all the orders for the 2009 and S stock, as their 95 and 96 tube stock are excellent trains with none of the issues of the Junipers and Coradias

 

[ABB125]

I'm working on a project which involves looking at the HS2 rolling stock specification. It keeps referring to various appendices, but I can't seem to find these anywhere. Are the appendices publicly available? If not, would someone be able to share the specified values for acceleration (possibly different for different speed bands) and axle load? Thanks

 

[class26]

I would not sat CAF had an unblemished reputation.

nor Hitachi after the cracking episode

 

[Roast Veg]

nor Hitachi after the cracking episode

I'd argue a single specification failure affecting lots of units is less severe than the numerous failings CAF have rolled out.

 

[DanNCL]

Siemens, and later Hitachi and CAF, were in the wings with largely unblemished reputations.

None of the three have unblemished reputations. CAF have had numerous design issues, the latest one being cracks on the trams they delivered to Sydney which are now expected to be out of action for at least the next 18 months. Hitachi have had the cracks on all of their UK designs plus the continuing poor availability with the 80xs, and Siemens had major issues both with the Combino trams and with the Nexas EMUs they delivered to Melbourne.

I'd argue a single specification failure affecting lots of units is less severe than the numerous failings CAF have rolled out.

All of Hitachi's UK products have had at least one issue with cracks, albeit not in the same locations or as severe as it is on the 80xs.

 

[Doomotron]

All of Hitachi's UK products have had at least one issue with cracks, albeit not in the same locations or as severe as it is on the 80xs.

I can't remember the 395s having it. Where and when did that happen?

 

[DanNCL]

I can't remember the 395s having it. Where and when did that happen?

Cracks were found in the obstacle deflector brackets on some of the 395s in March 2020.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Cracks were found in the obstacle deflector brackets on some of the 395s in March 2020.

How do you know the HS2 product will have any relevance to previous Hitachi UK products?
It looks like being a former Bombardier/Ansaldo design (in use globally) adapted for UK operation.
The Hitachi content is unknown, but is unlikely to be derived from 395/80x designs.
Have any high-speed manufacturers got a perfect reputation?

 

[XAM2175]

Siemens had major issues both with the Combino trams and with the Nexas EMUs they delivered to Melbourne.

Would that be the Combino articulation cracking that was discovered in 2004 and easily resolved? And the Nexas braking discrepancies that haven't been a problem for just over ten years?

Both those product lines have been superseded for some time now, by the way.

 

[DanNCL]

Would that be the Combino articulation cracking that was discovered in 2004 and easily resolved? And the Nexas braking discrepancies that haven't been a problem for just over ten years?

Both those product lines have been superseded for some time now, by the way.

Indeed. I know they've been superseded and that their replacements haven't had the same issues, I just mentioned them in the context of Siemens not having an entirely unblemished reputation.

 

[09ndodge]

How does the transfer of the V300 Zefiro platform to Hitachi affect the Hitachi/Bombardier (now Alstom) joint bid? Would Hitachi relicense part of it back to Alstom to allow them to be involved in manufacturing?
Hitachi Press Release

 

[DanNCL]

How does the transfer of the V300 Zefiro platform to Hitachi affect the Hitachi/Bombardier (now Alstom) joint bid? Would Hitachi relicense part of it back to Alstom to allow them to be involved in manufacturing?
Hitachi Press Release

Likely means that the bid is now an entirely Hitachi bid, and Alstom retain their previous separate bid.

Probably a wise idea for Alstom to only be involved in one bid. There is a contract (although I can’t remember which one now) in France where Alstom are suing because the Alstom/CAF joint bid (which was originally a Bombardier/CAF joint bid) won over Alstom’s bid to do all of the work themselves - effectively they’re suing against a contract awarded to themselves because it wasn’t the one of the two bids they wanted to be accepted!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The Hitachi PR is understandably vague, but the ex-Bombardier assets involved will primarily be in Italy (Vado Ligure, near Genoa) and Germany (Berlin Hennigsdorf).
They can only talk about existing orders for Trenitalia and ILSA (open access in Spain) which must be completed.
It's always been very vague what UK content would be in a potential order for HS2, having had no part in the Zefiro design/production to date.
For a UK order, Hitachi will want to load its production capacity first, before contracting out to Alstom.
On top of that, the longer-term HS2 prospects have now diminished with the cancellation of most of the eastern branch and any services beyond Leeds.
Future orders for UIC-gauge stock must now be very unlikely with only Birmingham and Manchester in the mix for dedicated trainsets.

 

[09ndodge]

Likely means that the bid is now an entirely Hitachi bid, and Alstom retain their previous separate bid.

Does it? Surely the bid, and therefore the scoring, was made on this basis of joint working and shared expertise unless they've come to some sort of arrangement with HS2.

It's reported the decision to award has been endorsed by the HS2 board and now waits for approval from the DfT.
HS2 waiting on Shapps approval to award maligned £2.75bn rolling stock contract

 

[Roast Veg]

Fingers crossed for the Zefiro. Fingers very much uncrossed for the Oaris.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Future orders for UIC-gauge stock must now be very unlikely with only Birmingham and Manchester in the mix for dedicated trainsets.

Now 26m vehicles are possible in UK loading gauge (though they will likely be 8 x 25m to give a clean 200m length), and given the large size of the order, there is nothing at at all to be gained from UIC gauge unless going double decker, and given that HS2 nearly doubles capacity on all routes from the pre COVID Avanti service it'll be a long time before that needs considering. So interoperable is the only approach that makes sense.