HS2: what signalling system is planned? also is the Handsacre connection no longer going ahead?

[Jorge Da Silva]

The three London-Manchester trains will be replaced by three HS2 services so any London-Stoke-Macclesfield-Manchester would need an extra path through Stockport in Phase 1/2a. I guess it could run through in Phase 2.

that’s what I am thinking

 

[Class 170101]

The three London-Manchester trains will be replaced by three HS2 services so any London-Stoke-Macclesfield-Manchester would need an extra path through Stockport in Phase 1/2a. I guess it could run through in Phase 2.

that’s what I am thinking

I don't think you would need it for Stage 1 because all would leave HS2 at Handsacre Jn so three paths remain, arguably for Stage 2A would you have two trains to Crewe for Manchester and one off at Handsacre for Stoke etc or would stay with the balance as today with two trains off at Handsacre.

Unless they can squeeze another unit to do the journey then you can't get past Macc anyway.

But this issue doesn't arise with Phase 1 or 2A I think because the benefit is mainly south of Birmingham (1) or Crewe (2A) albeit it a faster journey of course for those using HS2 and travelling beyond it to Manchester, Liverpool, Glasgow etc.

As far as Stage 2B surely there are paths between Stoke / Macclesfield and Manchester via Stockport because most of the trains for Manchester from London that run today would run on Stage 2B and not touch these areas thus releasing capacity to allow at least 1tph?

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

I don't think you would need it for Stage 1 because all would leave HS2 at Handsacre Jn so three paths remain, arguably for Stage 2A would you have two trains to Crewe for Manchester and one off at Handsacre for Stoke etc or would stay with the balance as today with two trains off at Handsacre.



But this issue doesn't arise with Phase 1 or 2A I think because the benefit is mainly south of Birmingham (1) or Crewe (2A) albeit it a faster journey of course for those using HS2 and travelling beyond it to Manchester, Liverpool, Glasgow etc.

As far as Stage 2B surely there are paths between Stoke / Macclesfield and Manchester via Stockport because most of the trains for Manchester from London that run today would run on Stage 2B and not touch these areas thus releasing capacity to allow at least 1tph?

should be

 

[Greybeard33]

The three London-Manchester trains will be replaced by three HS2 services so any London-Stoke-Macclesfield-Manchester would need an extra path through Stockport in Phase 1/2a. I guess it could run through in Phase 2.

A classic compatible semi fast between Piccadilly and Euston via Stoke, Stafford and Birmingham would not be a good use of a path through Stockport. The service would be overtaken by the captive HS2 services for Manchester - London/Birmingham journeys, so would mostly cart fresh air between Macclesfield and Piccadilly.

Better to use the Stockport capacity to improve frequencies on local stopping services to Macclesfield/Alderley Edge /Hazel Grove/Northwich, and/or for an additional express to Sheffield via the Hope Valley.

 

[Class 170101]

A classic compatible semi fast between Piccadilly and Euston via Stoke, Stafford and Birmingham would not be a good use of a path through Stockport. The service would be overtaken by the captive HS2 services for Manchester - London/Birmingham journeys, so would mostly cart fresh air between Macclesfield and Piccadilly.

Better to use the Stockport capacity to improve frequencies on local stopping services to Macclesfield/Alderley Edge /Hazel Grove/Northwich, and/or for an additional express to Sheffield via the Hope Valley.

It would be HS2 from London to Handsacre and then via the existing route to Manchester and not via Birmingham (maybe stopping at Interchange).

 

[Greybeard33]

It would be HS2 from London to Handsacre and then via the existing route to Manchester and not via Birmingham (maybe stopping at Interchange).

Still too slow for London to Manchester, once Phase 2b complete.

 

[Class 170101]

Still too slow for London to Manchester, once Phase 2b complete.

Not meant for that journey as you well know but other journeys in between.

 

[edwin_m]

I don't think you would need it for Stage 1 because all would leave HS2 at Handsacre Jn so three paths remain, arguably for Stage 2A would you have two trains to Crewe for Manchester and one off at Handsacre for Stoke etc or would stay with the balance as today with two trains off at Handsacre.

That was the original plan but now it's likely that Phase 2a will open at the same time as Phase 1. Handsacre can therefore be simplified as discussed above, to connect to the slow lines instead of the fasts, because it will never have to handle the entire Phase 1 traffic just the hourly Stoke/Stafford. If one of the three Manchester trains went via Stoke and Stafford it would be overtaken by the one 20min later that went via Phase 2a and Crewe, so it would be no use as a London-Manchester train and might as well finish at Macclesfield. Stafford, Stoke and Macclesfield will be connected to Stockport and Manchester by trains from Birmingham, which remain on the classic network until Phase 2b (and even after that there will almost certainly still be a similar classic service to provide the same intermediate links).

 

[WestRiding]

Where will the Signal Box be located for this line, and will it be Network Rail Signallers that control the line?

 

[MarkyT]

Where will the Signal Box be located for this line, and will it be Network Rail Signallers that control the line?

I'd expect the new line, including both arms of the wye and an appreciable proportion of new NPR infrastructure, where it's tightly integrated, to be controlled from dedicated workstations at a single control centre. It will hand over at conventional network boundaries to appropriate neighbouring NR ROCs, or earlier control centres where these still exist. Network Rail could be selected for signalling control, as on HS1, in which case the HS2/NPR workstations might be colocated at an NR ROC site and be staffed by their employees, as occurs at Ashford IECC for HS1.

 

[HSTEd]

There is an interesting question (assume NR takes over signalling control) about whether or not a dedicated new ROC will be created for High Speed Operations or whether it will be broken up across existing and planned ROCs on a geographical basis.

 

[MarkyT]

There is an interesting question (assume NR takes over signalling control) about whether or not a dedicated new ROC will be created for High Speed Operations or whether it will be broken up across existing and planned ROCs on a geographical basis.

It's actually a fairly simple railway totally segregated at the London end and currently planned to have only a small number of conventional network interfaces in the midlands and north. I'd expect the majority of the new infrastructure on the trunk to be controlled from one place whether or not that is colocated at an existing or future NR site. That could change in the NE and NW depending on how much integration there is with NPR and other surrounding conventional lines. It might make more sense to (say) put the Manchester branch in the local NW ROC. I have suggested a Transpennine ROC in the past, cutting across traditional regional/route boundaries, which might control NPR and connected lines in the north while the main N-S trunk from London to Wigan and Scotland is in a different ROC handing over to the 'North' centre at appropriate boundaries. Rather like Cardiff wanting to control everything in Wales directly despite there being three separate networks without a continuous track connection within the border, there may also be a political dimension in selection of control areas, as in 'The North' not wanting to be controlled by London (say). Many possibilities exist, but I'd suggest perhaps a site somewhere in the Midlands for the main HS2 trunk from London.

 

[The Planner]

Where will the Signal Box be located for this line, and will it be Network Rail Signallers that control the line?

Control of everything up to Crewe at least will be from the control centre at Washwood Heath.

 

[MarkyT]

Control of everything up to Crewe at least will be from the control centre at Washwood Heath.

Makes sense. Colocated with fleet, service and traction power control I expect.