Hull Trains Strike over dismissal

[STINT47]

It would be interesting to see the notes from the investigation and disciplinary process.

It's easy to speculate but without this information we cannot judge the rights and wrongs of the strike.

Perhaps one or both sides could release some more info to back up the arguments?

 

[AlterEgo]

It would be intrestto see the notes from the investigation and disciplinary process.

It's easy to speculate nut without this information we cannot judge the rights and wrongs of the strike.

Perhaps one or both sides could release some more info to back up they're arguments?

Why? This one seems set for tribunal from what I can gather.

 

[generalnerd]

In fairness no. Well it was a bit late to Grantham but I think that's down to problems with a level crossing judging by what I saw out of the window.



No I am not sure. Indeed it's first time I've taken Hull trains so it's possible they even have a different professional driver policy.

I am sure it was driven cautiously though compared to LNER. It sort of drifted into platforms (and certainly at Doncaster it had the road)

They do tend to be gentler coming into platforms. I’d assume it is maybe a relic from the 180’s that the drivers haven’t shaken off, but it could be something else

 

[185]

Why? This one seems set for tribunal from what I can gather.

No, these would be useful. As was stated earlier, tribunals are an absolute disgrace to the justice system, given some farcical ET rulings observed recently.

There comes a point where the union has grown tired of previous ET cases and now decided instead to use brute force against the operator - fed up of them using some legal magic spellcasting or pathetic loopholes to circumvent basic right and wrong at these tribunals.

V: It is to Madame Justice that I dedicate this concerto, in honour of the holiday that she seems to have taken from these parts, and in recognition of the impostor that stands in her stead. **BANG**

 

[fabs]

Maybe the union should look towards the performance of their nominated solicitors rather than the ETs themselves.
Opposing legal teams love coming up against them.

 

[mpthomson]

It would be interesting to see the notes from the investigation and disciplinary process.

It's easy to speculate but without this information we cannot judge the rights and wrongs of the strike.

Perhaps one or both sides could release some more info to back up the arguments?

You aren't going to see the notes from either investigation or disicplinary process at any point. They're confidential. Neither side can release them.

 

[AlterEgo]

No, these would be useful.

Useful to do what?

 

[Goldfish62]

No, these would be useful. As was stated earlier, tribunals are an absolute disgrace to the justice system, given some farcical ET rulings observed recently.

There comes a point where the union has grown tired of previous ET cases and now decided instead to use brute force against the operator - fed up of them using some legal magic spellcasting or pathetic loopholes to circumvent basic right and wrong at these tribunals.

V: It is to Madame Justice that I dedicate this concerto, in honour of the holiday that she seems to have taken from these parts, and in recognition of the impostor that stands in her stead. **BANG**

Got any recent examples?

Some people think ETs favour the employer, some think they favour the employee. Don't think there's conclusive evidence either way. As with all judicial matters it depends on the judge and the the calibre of the lawyers.

Another point is that, in my experience, union lawyers won't usually take on a case unless they think there's a fair chance of winning, not least due to the costs involved (although I know of one which was so ludicrous I have no idea why the particular union decided to take it forward, but that was a good few year ago). Likewise, employers would rather that cases never reach ETs due to cost and the time needed to prepare their defence, as well as being incredibly stressful for named respondents when it's the case that they themselves have done nothing wrong.

 

[185]

Got any recent examples?

Put two good ones in post #9

Some examples:
1. Employee v TOC tribunal. Case initially won by employee. Reopened at appeal hearing on the basis of a blatantly false claim by an HR manager. At tribunal CCTV confirms otherwise and TOC's solicitor admits the HR woman's false claim was untrue and apologises for 'misremembering'. TOC goes on to win case based on the basis of further new claims. Case later had to be resolved outside of tribunal at the High Court who expressed utter shock at the goings on at the employment tribunal service.

2. Employee v TOC tribunal. Employee sacked for not taking a ticket machine out. At tribunal company claims employee was lazy and all the ticket machines were working fine. They also claimed no-one had ever said "don't take a machine, they're broken". On day three of the tribunal, a covert audio recording was produced, of the HR Manager with a Conductor Manager talking in the appeal meeting saying "well, all the machines were broken, and... you know, we were telling them not to take one". Judge refused to accept the audio evidence because it was covertly recorded - even though it exposed clear evidence of perjury and an absolute intent to pervert the course of justice.

 

[Tw99]

If Hull trains are really able to run 80% of their service during the strike, is the Union really achieving much other than making a point, and also costing it's members a lot of money ? Whatever the rights and wrongs of the case, it seems that a driver strike isn't enough to force the company to do anything different, so is it really a good tactic?

 

[43066]

If Hull trains are really able to run 80% of their service during the strike, is the Union really achieving much other than making a point, and also costing it's members a lot of money ? Whatever the rights and wrongs of the case, it seems that a driver strike isn't enough to force the company to do anything different, so is it really a good tactic?

A 20% reduction in services on an operator that only runs a few trains per day is going to translate to a significant hit in revenue, and will also cause other disruption as managers driving trains won’t be able to do other parts of their day jobs.

I also wouldn’t assume it’ll cost the members anything - they may well make up lost earnings through overtime - and they are the ones who voted for it!

I also wouldn’t conclude it’s ineffective just yet - wait and see what happens…

 

[generalnerd]

If Hull trains are really able to run 80% of their service during the strike, is the Union really achieving much other than making a point, and also costing it's members a lot of money ? Whatever the rights and wrongs of the case, it seems that a driver strike isn't enough to force the company to do anything different, so is it really a good tactic?

Eventually, the management cover will buckle and hull trains will struggle. That’s why the strike is so long I believe.

 

[AlterEgo]

If Hull trains are really able to run 80% of their service during the strike, is the Union really achieving much other than making a point, and also costing it's members a lot of money ? Whatever the rights and wrongs of the case, it seems that a driver strike isn't enough to force the company to do anything different, so is it really a good tactic?

Management won’t be driving the trains for ever.

 

[greatkingrat]

Eventually, the management cover will buckle and hull trains will struggle. That’s why the strike is so long I believe.

Eventually, the drivers will buckle and start coming back to work. The question is which one will happen first?

 

[generalnerd]

Eventually, the drivers will buckle and start coming back to work. The question is which one will happen first?

That too. I hope the drivers come back/the management keep it up for a few weeks at least as I’m off to London for a tour of Charing Cross jubilee line soon and want the trip to go smoothly…

 

[Dogbox]

I can't believe the drivers have agreed to potentially 8 weeks without pay, surely aslef has agreed to some sort of payment for the drivers

 

[generalnerd]

I can't believe the drivers have agreed to potentially 8 weeks without pay, surely aslef has agreed to some sort of payment for the drivers

They earn a lot of money and live in hull and can probably survive off their other half’s income for a while.

Or get a job in heron.

 

[Moonshot]

Is this issue actually going to an employment tribunal?

 

[Dogbox]

Or get a job in heron.

 

[Goldfish62]

Put two good ones in post #9

But they just appear to be quotes of someone's version of events so may or may not be completely accurate. Do you have the case reference numbers or any names? All ET judgements are posted online.

 

[Egg Centric]

They earn a lot of money and live in hull and can probably survive off their other half’s income for a while.

Or get a job in heron.

They earn a good wage but they're not gazillionaires. And lifestyle tends to increase to wage so it's not necessarily the case that 8 weeks without it is easy, at least for some of them. General financial advice for most people is have 3-6 months worth of salary in cash as an emergency fund so 2 months eats into a lot especially if at the lower end of that.

This is a very significant sacrifice* to be making and that to me tells a lot about the strength of feeling around this.

*Unless they're demanding backpay for the strike as part of its resolution

 

[Goldfish62]

They earn a good wage but they're not gazillionaires. And lifestyle tends to increase to wage so it's not necessarily the case that 8 weeks without it is easy, at least for some of them. General financial advice for most people is have 3-6 months worth of salary in cash as an emergency fund so 2 months eats into a lot especially if at the lower end of that.

This is a very significant sacrifice* to be making and that to me tells a lot about the strength of feeling around this.

*Unless they're demanding backpay for the strike as part of its resolution

Surely they must be getting strike pay. I'm sure that ASLEF can afford it with the substantial subs they levy.

 

[generalnerd]

'No evidence' Hull Trains driver fell asleep, Aslef rep says

Aslef has called strikes after claiming the driver was unfairly dismissed, which Hull Trains denies.

www.bbc.co.uk

A day late but another update on the situation.

A union representative has said there is "no evidence" to support an accusation that a Hull Trains driver fell asleep at the controls.

"He reported he felt fatigued during the week he was driving trains. He didn't say he fell asleep," he said.

"If people want to make statements then they need to back it up because there is no evidence."

 

[whoosh]

I can't believe the drivers have agreed to potentially 8 weeks without pay, surely aslef has agreed to some sort of payment for the drivers

At least three days strike action have been cancelled at short notice. Meaning drivers will be earning their normal wage on those days, but also that the contingencies needed by the company won't be required on those days after being planned for.
Interesting tactic.

 

[embers25]

If Hull trains are really able to run 80% of their service during the strike, is the Union really achieving much other than making a point, and also costing it's members a lot of money ? Whatever the rights and wrongs of the case, it seems that a driver strike isn't enough to force the company to do anything different, so is it really a good tactic?

It's comical how ineffective this dispute has been so far. At the start ASLEF said (https://aslef.org.uk/publications/train-drivers-all-out-hull-trains):

The strikes will cause serious disruption on the rail network and force Hull Trains – a company owned by FirstGroup, the rail and bus giant which also owns Avanti West Coast, GWR, Lumo, and London Tramlink – to cancel most, if not all, of its services.

ASLEF maths skills clearly aren't the best given only a handful of services are being cancelled and most people wont even notice! I realise eventually management/other cover will reduce and it also has other impacts but, to the general public, this makes ASLEF look like absolute muppet's compared to the RMT, and lying muppet's at that with their false statements about the impact. If they blatantly lie about the impact, why should anyone believe their version of events about the driver? Even if ASLEF comments about the driver are true, they've lost a heck of a lot of credibility and public support in this ridiculously poorly handled dispute. Much as I despise the RMT, they are so much better at organising strikes than ASLEF.

 

[AlterEgo]

It's comical how ineffective this dispute has been so far. At the start ASLEF said (https://aslef.org.uk/publications/train-drivers-all-out-hull-trains):



ASLEF maths skills clearly aren't the best given only a handful of services are being cancelled and most people wont even notice! I realise eventually management/other cover will reduce and it also has other impacts but, to the general public, this makes ASLEF look like absolute muppet's compared to the RMT, and lying muppet's at that with their false statements about the impact. If they blatantly lie about the impact, why should anyone believe their version of events about the driver? Even if ASLEF comments about the driver are true, they've lost a heck of a lot of credibility and public support in this ridiculously poorly handled dispute. Much as I despise the RMT, they are so much better at organising strikes than ASLEF.

What do you think is *badly organised* about the strike? I mean, everyone is out, aren’t they? What more could they do?

I don’t think the public care that much about the dispute.

 

[Moonshot]

What do you think is *badly organised* about the strike? I mean, everyone is out, aren’t they? What more could they do?

I don’t think the public care that much about the dispute.

Indeed....in the bigger picture, this strike is going unnoticed

 

[generalnerd]

Indeed....in the bigger picture, this strike is going unnoticed

Absolutely! While a few people I know are a little bothered, most aren’t even aware of the strike action.

 

[PLY2AYS]

It's comical how ineffective this dispute has been so far. At the start ASLEF said (https://aslef.org.uk/publications/train-drivers-all-out-hull-trains):



ASLEF maths skills clearly aren't the best given only a handful of services are being cancelled and most people wont even notice! I realise eventually management/other cover will reduce and it also has other impacts but, to the general public, this makes ASLEF look like absolute muppet's compared to the RMT, and lying muppet's at that with their false statements about the impact. If they blatantly lie about the impact, why should anyone believe their version of events about the driver? Even if ASLEF comments about the driver are true, they've lost a heck of a lot of credibility and public support in this ridiculously poorly handled dispute. Much as I despise the RMT, they are so much better at organising strikes than ASLEF.

I don’t see how any strike action is comical personally.

This is a dispute over people’s livelihoods and what ASLEF and its members perceive to be a particularly serious issue.

As previously mentioned, it isn’t an unbroken strike, which is a very clever tactic by ASLEF, meaning they call off the strike on certain days, allowing drivers to come into work, get full pay, yet not enough time for the TOC to remove emergency rostering.

If you can’t see how intelligent and nuanced that is for an OAO, then you’ve overlooked the wider workings of the railway.

Any particular reason you ‘despise RMT’ and can you highlight how much more effective they were than ASLEF during the last dispute? I’d be really interested to know exactly what tactics and organisation you think was so effective when compared to ASLEF’s approach.

 

[RailExplorer]

How many Driver Managers (or other management qualified drivers) does Hull Trains have versus how many drivers do they have?

Also - one problem I do see with calling off the strike for a few days is that it allows management to have a day off, thus ensuring no HIDDEN issues for another 13 days.