Hull trains to St Pancras this Sunday, 3rd Dec

[dk1]

No good trying to run anything via Cambridge this Sunday as nothing running south of the city to Liverpool Street or Stansted Airport due to engineering works I’m presuming involving Cambridge South &/or Shepreth Branch Junction. It’s worth remembering that journey times are around 2h15 to 2h30 via this route from Peterborough if they terminated Cambridge and from next month the Stansted Express goes back to a full 15min frequency 7 days a week so not much capacity left spare on the WAML if you tried to get paths into Liverpool St.

 

[ainsworth74]

Depends if they are contingent rights though. If they are and its deemed there is no capacity it St Pancras, they will struggle.

Yes I was wondering about that. I can't help but suspect that they're probably contingent but a quick search of the Track Access agreement on the ORR website for "Pancras" failed to reveal anything at all about it. So *shrugs*...

 

[Bald Rick]

Notign that even with only 4 trains to St P, capacity is so tight on the MML that one of them is running slow line Harpenden - Cricklewood.

 

[Clarence Yard]

No, the HT rights are firm by right of the Schedule 2 diversionary provisions in their TAA. You used to have to put in alternative routes/termini in your Schedule 5 rights but that was simplified out years ago. Interestingly, HT originally had Liverpool St as its alternative terminus but getting in and out there via the West Anglia routes was nearly always a problem on Sundays.

If NR have too much traffic for a route, as a result of engineering diversions or loss of tracks on a route which is otherwise open, they should carry out a quick capacity study as part of determining the timetable but, as per the Timetable Planning Rules for the route, there is capacity for HT to run to St Pancras and use the platforms there so NR don’t need to judge the merits or otherwise of individual operators who want to use the route on the days in question.

 

[Kite159]

I remember doing one of these diverts back in the autumn of 2020 where it sat in the Kentish Town area for a good 10 minutes waiting for the correct timeslot to access St Pancras.

It's good that Hull Trains carries on trying to run a service when the ECML is closed (compared to Grand Central which don't run anything, not even a shuttle from Sunderland/Bradford to Peterborough). Also reminds me of one of my first forum meets in 2014 time when Kings Cross was closed and Hull Trains ran a random service reversing several times to access the ECML near Harringay where a group of us took it to Stevenage)

 

[43066]

No, the HT rights are firm by right of the Schedule 2 diversionary provisions in their TAA. You used to have to put in alternative routes/termini in your Schedule 5 rights but that was simplified out years ago. Interestingly, HT originally had Liverpool St as its alternative terminus but getting in and out there via the West Anglia routes was nearly always a problem on Sundays.

If NR have too much traffic for a route, as a result of engineering diversions or loss of tracks on a route which is otherwise open, they should carry out a quick capacity study as part of determining the timetable but, as per the Timetable Planning Rules for the route, there is capacity for HT to run to St Pancras and use the platforms there so NR don’t need to judge the merits or otherwise of individual operators who want to use the route on the days in question.

Perhaps that’s something that will need to be revisited in due course.

It's good that Hull Trains carries on trying to run a service when the ECML is closed (compared to Grand Central which don't run anything,

Not if it’s running a token service, by virtue of outdated agreements, which disproportionately impacts on another area of the railway which is already struggling in terms of capacity.

 

[Kite159]

Perhaps that’s something that will need to be revisited in due course.



Not if it’s running a token service, by virtue of outdated agreements, which disproportionately impacts on another area of the railway which is already struggling in terms of capacity.

Putting passengers first rather than expecting them to use replacement buses or use the existing EMR services from Sheffield which will be carrying more passengers than usual due to the engineering works.

 

[43066]

Putting passengers first rather than expecting them to use replacement buses or use the existing EMR services from Sheffield which will be carrying more passengers than usual due to the engineering works.

Their passengers, perhaps, but not the (far greater in number) passengers who use EMR and GTR’s services on the MML.

The service levels are rather different now compared to what they were in Autumn 2020, let alone 2014!

 

[Clarence Yard]

Perhaps that’s something that will need to be revisited in due course.



Not if it’s running a token service, by virtue of outdated agreements, which disproportionately impacts on another area of the railway which is already struggling in terms of capacity.

Sorry, the Train Plaaning Rules are the Train Planning Rules - they are not optional because someone doesn’t like them. If the train fits on the planning graph, that’s it. The capacity clearly exists so it’s going to be used. The network isn’t there for just one set of usual users with plenty of white space between their trains so they can have an easy time of it.

The agreements aren’t outdated either - it’s a standard clause in a passenger TAA, so that anyone can divert anywhere if they need to. It’s deliberately there, to encourage rail journeys rather than tipping people onto buses. And it’s not a token service by HT either, those trains are very well loaded and crucial to the operator concerned, in order to maintain their weekend business.

 

[WAB]

Sorry, the Train Plaaning Rules are the Train Planning Rules - they are not optional because someone doesn’t like them. If the train fits on the planning graph, that’s it. The capacity clearly exists so it’s going to be used. The network isn’t there for just one set of usual users with plenty of white space between their trains so they can have an easy time of it.

The agreements aren’t outdated either - it’s a standard clause in a passenger TAA, so that anyone can divert anywhere if they need to. It’s deliberately there, to encourage rail journeys rather than tipping people onto buses. And it’s not a token service by HT either, those trains are very well loaded and crucial to the operator concerned, in order to maintain their weekend business.

Does the platform capacity exist at St Pancras at the right times to line up with the required HT paths? Or would it require some non-minor STP alterations to EMR services?

 

[43066]

Sorry, the Train Plaaning Rules are the Train Planning Rules - they are not optional because someone doesn’t like them. If the train fits on the planning graph, that’s it. The capacity clearly exists so it’s going to be used. The network isn’t there for just one set of usual users with plenty of white space between their trains so they can have an easy time of it.

Not suggesting any of that is wrong, but presumably there’s a mechanism for regularly reviewing this as capacity changes. Would there not be a good case for HT going into Liverpool St as LNER may do in future?

And it’s not a token service by HT either, those trains are very well loaded and crucial to the operator concerned, in order to maintain their weekend business.

To be clear these diversions only happen once in a blue moon, for a weekend every couple of years or so, so surely they cannot be too crucial to HT’s business model!?

 

[robbeech]

Re: the not calling at Doncaster.
Will a 5 car set fit in half of P3 at Doncaster up to the signal? I seem to think it won’t do so even if it wasn’t a capacity issue then I assume it would be a none starter anyway.

The Edinburghs will terminate at Doncaster blocking a platform for large amounts of time leaving only 1 northbound platform for much of the day.

 

[Peterthegreat]

Re: the not calling at Doncaster.
Will a 5 car set fit in half of P3 at Doncaster up to the signal? I seem to think it won’t do so even if it wasn’t a capacity issue then I assume it would be a none starter anyway.

The Edinburghs will terminate at Doncaster blocking a platform for large amounts of time leaving only 1 northbound platform for much of the day.

Most Edinburgh services appear to run through to/from St Neots.

 

[800001]

Re: the not calling at Doncaster.
Will a 5 car set fit in half of P3 at Doncaster up to the signal? I seem to think it won’t do so even if it wasn’t a capacity issue then I assume it would be a none starter anyway.

The Edinburghs will terminate at Doncaster blocking a platform for large amounts of time leaving only 1 northbound platform for much of the day.

Yes A 5 car can fit and call there on north end of 3

 

[TheBigD]

Re: the not calling at Doncaster.
Will a 5 car set fit in half of P3 at Doncaster up to the signal? I seem to think it won’t do so even if it wasn’t a capacity issue then I assume it would be a none starter anyway.

The Edinburghs will terminate at Doncaster blocking a platform for large amounts of time leaving only 1 northbound platform for much of the day.

When LNER divert via the Joint Line, the Edinburgh that terminates/starts at Doncaster occupies platform 1 ××55 to xx10, just 15 minutes.

 

[43055]

Does the platform capacity exist at St Pancras at the right times to line up with the required HT paths? Or would it require some non-minor STP alterations to EMR services?

Looks like all of the EMR services have variations to normal on Sunday base timetable. Times look similar/same so could be platform numbers.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Is Lumo doing the same as they are also First Group, or are they terminating at Stevenage?

 

[dan4291]

Is Lumo doing the same as they are also First Group, or are they terminating at Stevenage?

Lumo are running one train as far as Peterborough with a rail replacement coach to London from there.

 

[357]

Yes A 5 car can fit and call there on north end of 3

And the south end too

 

[YorkRailFan]

Lumo are running one train as far as Peterborough with a rail replacement coach to London from there.

Ah OK. I assume that's one train in each direction.

 

[dan4291]

Ah OK. I assume that's one train in each direction.

Yes it's a return trip. Best they can do really with the circumstances and lack of electrified diversion routes.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Yes it's a return trip. Best they can do really with the circumstances and lack of electrified diversion routes.

Would the coach go to London, or to Bedford (which is what LNER does)?

 

[The Planner]

Sorry, the Train Plaaning Rules are the Train Planning Rules - they are not optional because someone doesn’t like them. If the train fits on the planning graph, that’s it. The capacity clearly exists so it’s going to be used. The network isn’t there for just one set of usual users with plenty of white space between their trains so they can have an easy time of it.

The agreements aren’t outdated either - it’s a standard clause in a passenger TAA, so that anyone can divert anywhere if they need to. It’s deliberately there, to encourage rail journeys rather than tipping people onto buses. And it’s not a token service by HT either, those trains are very well loaded and crucial to the operator concerned, in order to maintain their weekend business.

I'll beg to differ on that one, just because the TPRs say you can run 7 trains on headway one after the other, it doesn't mean its a good idea. Its very often flagged as a risk in timetable construction. If NR fancy the fight and apply the decision criteria based on performance, reflecting demand, etc it would make for an interesting discussion at an ADRC panel. A "quick" capacity study made me chuckle, nothing quick about those.

 

[greyman42]

Bus to Cockfosters is only happening due to industrial action by GTR on Thames link and limited EMR.
Bus to bedford on previous occasions then train forward has worked well before.

As for diverting even one LNER per hour to St Pancras that’s a whole new route for there drivers to learn and maintain that knowledge, it’s hard enough keeping the knowledge for the many diversion routes they have already.

As for diverting to Cambridge and then services forward, Kings Cross is closed completely, so all services would have to go to Liverpool Street.

LNER have taken the initiative lately and route proved an Azuma into Liverpool Street, the next process will be route learning at some point.

Route learning before Sunday would have been handy.

 

[800001]

LNER have regularly terminated at St Neots with bus to Bedford then GTr to London.

They have a very slick operation with the busses at St Neots.

This Sunday the industrial disputes is responsible for the need to bus to Cockfosters.

 

[YorkRailFan]

LNER have regularly terminated at St Neots with bus to Bedford then GTr to London.

They have a very slick operation with the busses at St Neots.

This Sunday the industrial disputes is responsible for the need to bus to Cockfosters.

Pretty sure LNER usually says get EMR into London from Bedford as its quicker. At least when I last did it.

 

[800001]

Pretty sure LNER usually says get EMR into London from Bedford as its quicker. At least when I last did it.

EMR or GTR then, last time I did, it was GtR we were herded onto at Bedford.

 

[YorkRailFan]

EMR or GTR then, last time I did, it was GtR we were herded onto at Bedford.

Ah, I did it in February with EMR.

 

[eh_oh]

A common thing said on this thread has been that the bedpan line is at/over-capacity

Is this true for the slow lines as well?
I can only think of (off-peak) 6tph thameslink + freight, which is not too bad?

 

[800001]

A common thing said on this thread has been that the bedpan line is at/over-capacity

Is this true for the slow lines as well?
I can only think of (off-peak) 6tph thameslink + freight, which is not too bad?

I thought the capacity issue was the platforms at St Pancras?