Hydrive 165 project

[CR165022]

(apologies if there is already a thread for this)
Is this still actually happening? 165004 has been at Derby since 2020 and all that seems to have happened since is that it's had its underframe removed.
There's also reports of both the project and 165004 being scrapped now, is this true?

 

[John McGeoch]

All quiet since this as far as I can see. Where did you find reports of the project and the unit being scrapped?

 

[ScotGG]

Would it make more sense to test on a 465 in store?

 

[Roast Veg]

The project has not been dropped from the Angel Trains website: https://angeltrains.co.uk/study/class-165-hybrid-drive/

As part of our commitment to making UK rail more sustainable, we are converting a Diesel Multiple Unit (DMU) to a low-emission hybrid drive with our innovative self-charging battery technology.
We are collaborating with Chiltern Railways, UK-based electric vehicles specialist Magtec and maintenance experts Loram to bring this exciting £4m investment to life.

Immediate environmental benefits will include reducing carbon and gaseous emissions, as well as addressing local air quality issues and noise in populated areas.

The hybrid system automatically turns engines off and runs on battery when it detects proximity to stations and the regenerative braking system charges the vehicle, increasing overall efficiency.

Thanks to the improved acceleration offered by our hybrid technology compared to its diesel-only counterparts, passengers could also benefit from reduced journey times.

 

[Mikey C]

Would it make more sense to test on a 465 in store?

This project is aiming to make DMUs more efficient and less polluting by adding battery packs, so it's different from the bimode projects (like the 769)

 

[Bletchleyite]

This project is aiming to make DMUs more efficient and less polluting by adding battery packs, so it's different from the bimode projects (like the 769)

It'll also be aimed towards Chiltern, the last major* operator of DMUs into a London terminus, who at some point will be told to pack it in but with no planned electrification and a huge fleet of hydraulic transmission 16x.

* Avanti have the Voyagers but bi-mode replacements are on order, and that just leaves a few minor cases - Grand Central and Southern may well be it, and both operate hydraulic transmission DMUs so it might be possible to apply it to those, too.

 

[Domh245]

* Avanti have the Voyagers but bi-mode replacements are on order, and that just leaves a few minor cases - Grand Central and Southern may well be it, and both operate hydraulic transmission DMUs so it might be possible to apply it to those, too.

Southern would be able to use the same solution as Chiltern's 168s, being mechanically almost identical (Poterbrook seem to be backing the MTU Hybrid power packs rather than this hydrive solution)

GC's 180s would be more involved being a completely different engine setup but are Angel owned, so would more likely end up with this

 

[supervc-10]

EMR and SWR are operating diesels into London too- EMR with 222s and 180s, and SWR with 159s (although of course not right at the moment). Although of course EMR, like Avanti, have bi-modes on order.

Chiltern though are the only operator where the diesels aren't under wires/over 3rd rail in London. I think bi-modes or battery/EMU for other operators would be best though.

Of course though air quality issues are more than just London- if this works under a 165, it would make sense to roll it out across the whole 165/166 fleet.

 

[Suraggu]

Magtec and Angel were given notice by LOROM around a month ago to vacate by mid November for an undisclosed reason, I am not sure that this has been resolved between those parties yet.

It seems running in collaboration with Magtec hasn't paid off for Angel thus far with 165004.

Time will tell what happens next, the DA for Chiltern is due to be announced very shortly.

And whilst the 168 hybrid project with Porterbrook and Rolls Royce is delayed, 168329 is having active test runs on the Chiltern network.

 

[The Ham]

EMR and SWR are operating diesels into London too- EMR with 222s and 180s, and SWR with 159s (although of course not right at the moment). Although of course EMR, like Avanti, have bi-modes on order.

Chiltern though are the only operator where the diesels aren't under wires/over 3rd rail in London. I think bi-modes or battery/EMU for other operators would be best though.

Of course though air quality issues are more than just London- if this works under a 165, it would make sense to roll it out across the whole 165/166 fleet.

I would have thought that Chiltern into London is fairly unique going into most major cities in that the major station doesn't have wires.

I can think of some exceptions, like Exeter, Plymouth, Swansea and I'm sure there's others.

 

[Chris125]

And whilst the 168 hybrid project with Porterbrook and Rolls Royce is delayed, 168329 is having active test runs on the Chiltern network.

Can you confirm that? It seemed to disappear off to Wolverton a few days after the unveiling at Marylebone in July - I've not come across any photos or videos since.

EDIT: Oh yes, it's back! https://twitter.com/SlugsUploads/status/1455474761090445312

"Hybrid 168329 is off for a few jollys today between Aylesbury and Great Missenden. Great to see her back on the Chilterns."

 

[DanNCL]

165004 remains stored at Derby RTC. In addition to the removal of the majority of the underframe equipment as mentioned above, the windscreen on the DMSL vehicle has also been removed. The two vehicles have been split.

 

[Chorley Cake]

165004 remains stored at Derby RTC. In addition to the removal of the majority of the underframe equipment as mentioned above, the windscreen on the DMSL vehicle has also been removed. The two vehicles have been split.

Is it visible from the main line ? Or from the southern end of Derby Station ?

 

[t_star2001uk]

Here is the latest picture of the 165 Hydrive project....

 

[3973EXL]

WNXX reporting 165004 moved by road to Wabtec.

 

[Dave91131]

WNXX reporting 165004 moved by road to Wabtec.

I can confirm at least one vehicle of a Chiltern liveried 165 was present at Doncaster mid afternoon on Fri 19th Nov, in a siding near the 3 spares donor class 91's (103-104-108).

 

[contrex]

The Anonymous Widower had a piece in April 2020 (about an article in the May 2020 Modern Railways) with a lot of stuff about GWR maybe getting Hy-Drive type alterations to 165 and 166 DMMUs and even strengthening to 3 or 5 cars with ex-365/465 EMU trailers. Is this realistic? https://anonw.com/tag/class-165-hydrive/

 

[D365]

The Anonymous Widower had a piece in April 2020 (about an article in the May 2020 Modern Railways) with a lot of stuff about GWR maybe getting Hy-Drive type alterations to 165 and 166 DMMUs and even strengthening to 3 or 5 cars with ex-365/465 EMU trailers. Is this realistic? https://anonw.com/tag/class-165-hydrive/

Anonymous Widower seems like a lovely chap. But with the best will in the world... a significant number of his proposals can be considered fanciful.

 

[contrex]

Anonymous Widower seems like a lovely chap. But with the best will in the world... a significant number of his proposals can be considered fanciful.

I agree. I like his blog, and I find the idea of 4-car hybrid battery-diesel Networkers running about on the GWR quite attractive.

 

[D365]

I agree. I like his blog, and I find the idea of 4-car hybrid battery-diesel Networkers running about on the GWR quite attractive.

Fanciful in the sense of "very imaginative".

If it were workable, four car Turbos would be fantastic, but I don't know where the initial idea came from. The electric Networkers are fundamentally different from the Turbos.

 

[contrex]

Fanciful in the sense of "very imaginative".

If it were workable, four car Turbos would be fantastic, but I don't know where the initial idea came from. The electric Networkers are fundamentally different from the Turbos.

Yes but the front ends are very similar, and the diesels were called 'Networker Turbos' by NSE. They are "diesel multiple unit members of the Networker family of trains built for British Rail", are they not?

 

[Darandio]

Yes but the front ends are very similar, and the diesels were called 'Networker Turbos' by NSE. They are "diesel multiple unit members of the Networker family of trains built for British Rail", are they not?

So you're basing potential compatiblity between the two on how the front looks and what they are called?

 

[contrex]

So you're basing potential compatiblity between the two on how the front looks and what they are called?

No, I just calls 'em 'diesel Networkers', like NSE did. Whether the slightly shorter EMU version trailers can be rigged up to work in a DMU formation is a technical issue. Probably not very practical or cost-effective, although didn't a class 210 trailer get re-used in a 455?

 

[Clarence Yard]

D365, the original suggestion came from me! Angel were touting this as we were negotiating the DA3 award. Someone at GWR heard about what we were up to, assumed it was going to be 365 trailers and put it out there but for Angel it was always going to be Angel 465 trailers or no deal.

A 5 car unit with tabled 2+2 seating - about 400 seats - would have been very nice for Cardiff-Portsmouth (and other places) but the HyDrive scheme was too much in its infancy for the DfT to go completely nap on it.

You could get a good mix of 2, 3, 4 and 5 car turbos that could have seen off the GWR cl.158 and all but a few GWR cl.150, which battery 465 units would have been my favourite to replace on the few lines for which a 23m coupled unit would not have worked.

You can only augment if you went HyDrive because the required power isn’t there otherwise. Angel have checked the structural integrity of the Turbos and they are good till at least 2030, with some relatively minor work in the meantime. Some calculations were also done to make sure their specified output could meet the required Portsmouth-Cardiff timings.

Since the DA3 award the money has got tighter and the HyDrive project has not gone as quickly as had been anticipated. There are other possible solutions out there now as well.

 

[D365]

D365, the original suggestion came from me! Angel were touting this as we were negotiating the DA3 award. Someone at GWR heard about what we were up to, assumed it was going to be 365 trailers and put it out there but for Angel it was always going to be Angel 465 trailers or no deal.

I'd be interested to know if (and what kind of) a feasibility study was completed to determine the viability of any such exercise!