Hydrogen Class 614 - It moves!

[Nicholas Lewis]

There will be places that wiring isn't the best solution to when taken as a whole provided there's an alternative that works on a small scale ( remote branches are pretty likely candidates ) but at a small scale like that then biofuels are also a candidate, surely. Not politically ( in the broad sense of social opinion ) acceptable right now. I'm not sure about hydrogen duration - once you factor containment in the energy density advantage collapses, You can construct a system that's not dependent on rare resources, but if you want to harvest - which is quite critical, if you don't then your efficiency just plummeted - you're going to need some batteries anyway, The whole area is a lot messier than people like to make out :/

Biofuels need land take though but could certainly be a player for residual liquid fueled prime movers for sure.

 

[Alanko]

It seems hydrogen is now blameless as it is seen as green. Much like plastic went from being the antichrist prior to 2019 to our saviour during covid.

And there's no need for the condescension. It may make you feel superior saying 'There's no need for a real life demonstration just to appease people who don't understand the science.' That's the sort of mindset that was used during the Brexit campaign, and we know how effective that was in increasing the Conservative vote in the North.

Weird political rant aside, you were wrong about something and duly corrected in an entirely non condescending manner.

You came up with an edge case for why hydrogen could be dangerous based on a dubious comparison.

 

[Recessio]

Don't see how carrying hydrogen around would be any more dangerous than petrol or particularly LPG.

Looking forward to seeing how this goes. It's good to be exploring all the options for the future - batteries, bimodes, hydrogen, etc. rather than having all our eggs in one basket, so will be interesting to see future developments.

 

[37201xoIM]

The trick with getting the best from hydrogen isn't to combine it with oxygen, but to fuse its atoms together. Get that old reaction going in the underslung equipment and hey presto. And when the unit's not required for moving passengers it can power a small city.

Absolutely - after all, we have long known that nuclear-powered buses are the future.

 

[McRhu]

Absolutely - after all, we have long known that nuclear-powered buses are the future.

What's the formula for converting megatonnes to HP?

 

[snowball]

Deleted

 

[BigB]

1 megaton is 1558565673.5 horse power - so probably more than your average SCG gearbox could stand???

The new AC motors fitted to the 614 are good but not that good...

 

[Domh245]

1 megaton is 1558565673.5 horse power

if you tried to use all that energy over the course of an hour..

Megaton TNT is a unit of energy (J), HP is a unit of power (W, or in base terms J/s) - it's like saying a (50l) tank of petrol has 644HP using the same conversion - it's a bit of a nonsense!

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The new AC motors fitted to the 614 are good but not that good...

Are they going for certification for main line network or has it only got enough power to shunt around at low speed?

 

[gingertom]

Are they going for certification for main line network or has it only got enough power to shunt around at low speed?

I'd hope they are going for full mainline certification, otherwise how will they acquire the necessary performance data? It needs to get up to the speeds a production unit would achieve in real life so H2 consumption, useable range etc can be worked out and verified in real life conditions. Pottering about Bo'ness at 20mph is a good start but a blast up the Highland Main Line will really put it through its paces and yield some decent data.

 

[XAM2175]

Are they going for certification for main line network or has it only got enough power to shunt around at low speed?

I'd hope they are going for full mainline certification, otherwise how will they acquire the necessary performance data? It needs to get up to the speeds a production unit would achieve in real life so H2 consumption, useable range etc can be worked out and verified in real life conditions. Pottering about Bo'ness at 20mph is a good start but a blast up the Highland Main Line will really put it through its paces and yield some decent data.

The intent has always been to keep it mainline-ready. They even went out of their way to keep the axle loads and kinematic envelope as close as possible to a production 314, to ease the process of getting it cleared.

Of course it will always be constrained by its very limited hydrogen storage capacity so there's no long-range running in its future without extensive modifications, but it'll be able to at least stretch its legs a bit.

 

[DAH37403]

It does seem that phone microphones make those sort of sounds (blowers, diesel engines etc) sound very loud, possibly because they're in a similar range of frequencies to human speech which they're designed to pick up well. I'm pretty sure the exact same has been said of 195s, 197s and FLIRTs and you can hear this on a good many YouTube videos, but they're not that noisy in person.

The audio on this clip was recorded on a Rode stereo videoMic pro and not a phone mic.

DAH

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Absolutely - after all, we have long known that nuclear-powered buses are the future.

Or solar powered...or wind powered...

 

[krus_aragon]

I have worked in or in adjacent spheres to battery, alternative fuel and fuel cell for a long time. There's no one answer, but I retain a dose of scepticism about fuel cells, as I can't help thinking that they will be caught up for powertrain applications by batteries, which don't care how the energy was produced and which have fewer complications around manufacturing, transporting and storing the fuel. But range will be the clincher, and trains are not cars.

You'll probably also be aware of issues around batteries with charge-discharge cycle counts and the availability/pricing of the rare earth metals used in their manufacture, but I figured they'd be worth bringing to the conversation. These are aspects that don't affect fuel tanks/cells to the same degree.

 

[ShadowKnight]

It's not all about efficiency, but practicality as well.

It's more practical to have 1000km worth of hydrogen in the same volume of let's say 500km worth of batteries.

The wind turbine to motor efficiency of hydrogen is less than batteries but if this were the case the whole world would have abandoned internal combustion engines by now.

Equally hydrogen fuel cell systems are generally more efficient than Diesel engines as things stand.

There is a place for hydrogen, generally long distance transport where space and weight to store store the fuel is a premium.

Also hydrogen vehicles can be refuelled quickly like diesel, batteries on the other hand take much longer to charge the same amount of kW

 

[37201xoIM]

Equally hydrogen fuel cell systems are generally more efficient than Diesel engines as things stand.

... but only once you've already got the hydrogen.

 

[Invincible]

... but only once you've already got the hydrogen

From the "how secure is the future availability of hydrogen?" Thread in the speculation forum, there is enough hydrogen available now (as a byproduct in chemical processes) to run a hydrogen train service in Germany and the class 614 tests in Scotland.
Linde and other companies intend to increase production and distribution of green hydrogen to bring down the cost, which is a matter for speculation how this will be achieved.
From

Arcola showcases Scottish hydrogen conversion

Class 614 demonstration runs at Bo’ness next year

www.modernrailways.com

The next step could be to fit the under floor kit to a class 158 for mainline tests?

 

[Pete_uk]

Would hydrogen tanks be in their own 'tank' in case of derailment, or would a ruptured tank full hydrogen not be any worse than diesel?

 

[Wyrleybart]

The next step could be to fit the under floor kit to a class 158 for mainline tests?

Wouldn't use a 158. They are still way too valuable. If anything it could be a pair of 153s stored at Ely, however, I think the 614 is a pathfinder and I would have thought a train fitted with traction motors and probably a pantograph and transformer would be the best donor to further the trials.

 

[Energy]

The next step could be to fit the under floor kit to a class 158 for mainline tests?

Do we need more tests? Hydrogen is running fine in Germany.

 

[ShadowKnight]

Would hydrogen tanks be in their own 'tank' in case of derailment, or would a ruptured tank full hydrogen not be any worse than diesel?

Hydrogen is generally equally as safe as petrol/diesel cars for example. Safer in some aspects and worse in others but averaging out to the same.

... but only once you've already got the hydrogen.

Equally as efficient at the point of use, varying if the hydrogen is used in a fuel cell or combustion engine

 

[Invincible]

Would hydrogen tanks be in their own 'tank' in case of derailment, or would a ruptured tank full hydrogen not be any worse than diesel?

F1 cars use flexible tanks in a metal casing to prevent rupture in a crash, trains could do the same?

Do we need more tests? Hydrogen is running fine in Germany.

In Germany the tanks and fuel cells can go on the roof as there is more clearance on tracks. In the UK the height is not available, so the tanks and fuel cells have to go underneath the train, which is more tricky.

 

[ShadowKnight]

Would hydrogen tanks be in their own 'tank' in case of derailment, or would a ruptured tank full hydrogen not be any worse than diesel?

Generally hydrogen is as safe as petrol or diesel when ruptured. The fire produced behaves differently that a diesel fire but currently research finds a roughly equivalent level of safety

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Do we need more tests? Hydrogen is running fine in Germany.

Arghh thats Europe remember they don't know what they are doing.

 

[Royston Vasey]

The next step could be to fit the under floor kit to a class 158 for mainline tests?

A diesel mechanical unit is the last donor you'd choose as the fuel cell needs to feed a traction motor.

Wouldn't use a 158. They are still way too valuable. If anything it could be a pair of 153s stored at Ely, however, I think the 614 is a pathfinder and I would have thought a train fitted with traction motors and probably a pantograph and transformer would be the best donor to further the trials.

If anything it would be an EMU with DC traction motors, as that is what the fuel cell produces.

 

[Greybeard33]

Do we need more tests? Hydrogen is running fine in Germany.

A study by the German state of Baden-Wuerttemberg has concluded that there is no place for hydrogen traction in decarbonising the state's railways. Diesel trains will instead be replaced by a mix of battery trains and infill electrification. Baden-Wuerttemberg has some practical experience of hydrogen, having tested an Alstrom Coradia iLint unit between July 2021 and February 2022.

Baden-Württemberg rules out hydrogen traction

GERMANY: Hydrogen-powered rolling stock is less efficient and more expensive than battery-powered traction on non-electrified routes, according to a study commissioned by the Baden-Württemberg Land transport ministry.

www.railwaygazette.com

Compiled by a consortium of consultants including Transport Technologie-Consult Karlsruhe GmbH and komobile GmbH of Wien, the study examined three options for 16 unelectrified routes across Baden-Württemberg: conventional electrification, use of hybrid electric-battery multiple-units and deployment of hybrid trains fitted with hydrogen fuel cells.

The study found that there was no case for further consideration of hydrogen on economic and operational grounds. Direct comparison with the alternatives showed that, taking infrastructure characteristics and the nature of local operations into account, there was no route where the use of hydrogen would be warranted.

("Hybrid" in this context means the capability to use OHLE as well as hydrogen or batteries.)

Various infrastructure scenarios and their associated costs were studied and possible synergy effects and strategic aspects evaluated. Rolling stock costs including maintenance and energy costs were examined ― the study looked at acceleration and braking performance, energy consumption and CO2 emissions, including those generated at sites remote from the point of use. Potential sites for hydrogen fuelling points and battery charging were assessed and possible ‘islands’ of overhead wires and the logistics needed to supply hydrogen fuelling points were examined.

While the use of hydrogen fuel cells required little or no modifications to existing infrastructure and few changes to operations, disadvantages included high costs for establishing fuelling points and related new infrastructure. High energy consumption and high costs meant poor efficiency, exacerbated by a full tank of hydrogen not sufficing for a full day’s use; this implied that additional rolling stock could be needed. The limited availability of ‘green’ hydrogen was also a factor.

The study recommended that five routes be electrified and that up to 664 km of route should be operated with hybrid battery-electric trainsets. Local authorities have been invited to debate the conclusions of the study with the Land transport ministry with a view to agreeing a strategy for emission-free rail services by the start of 2023.

 

[ExRes]

Arghh thats Europe remember they don't know what they are doing.

Yup, nice to see how effectively it's (not) running in Germany, presumably the rest of Europe is equally as efficient

 

[Alanko]

Arghh thats Europe remember they don't know what they are doing.

I had to chuckle at that. I do think we need to drop this sense of exceptionalism. This country must have a long list of "world beating" projects that failed to deliver. Anything involving nuclear power, renewables, fast aircraft or anything railway related post 1980s? All heralded as projects that the world will look at with envy.

This hydrogen project looks suspiciously like a knackered old EMU trundling around the weeds at Bo'ness logging the sort of data that has already been gathered in Germany.

 

[D365]

A study by the German state of Baden-Wuerttemberg has concluded that there is no place for hydrogen traction in decarbonising the state's railways.

Goodness. A public sector conclusion that I am in 100% agreement with. Wonders never cease.

 

[Pete_uk]

A Stadler Flirt 755 style walk through carriage would be a good place for the liquid/gas bottols. It would save space below the units.