[Hypothetical] Can’t get last train due to overcrowding

[Mathieu]

I’ll be leaving from the Hydro tonight to get a train from Exhibition Centre to Singer, if the station is overcrowded not allowing me to get a train, will I get a taxi from ScotRail?

 

[najaB]

I’ll be leaving from the Hydro tonight to get a train from Exhibition Centre to Singer, if the station is overcrowded not allowing me to get a train, will I get a taxi from ScotRail?

Hypothetically, yes. More likely you'll have to get the taxi yourself and make a claim for a refund.

 

[Mathieu]

Hypothetically, yes. More likely you'll have to get the taxi yourself and make a claim for a refund.

Is there a part of the NRCoT that state that they’ll get me a taxi if it’s overcrowded?

 

[najaB]

Is there a part of the NRCoT that state that they’ll get me a taxi if it’s overcrowded?

Not specifically, no. However if you're stranded (unable to board the last train) then they have an obligation to get you to your destination station.

 

[Mathieu]

Not specifically, no. However if you're stranded (unable to board the last train) then they have an obligation to get you to your destination station.

Is there a part about being stranded?

 

[najaB]

Is there a part about being stranded?

Have you actually read the NRCoT? http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/Conditions of Travel 2016.pdf

 

[Mathieu]

Have you actually read the NRCoT? http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/Conditions of Travel 2016.pdf

Yeah, is Section 28.1 the only part that covers that?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Is there a part about being stranded?

It's a simple part of the contract. You have paid for a ticket - this entitles you to be transported from A to B. The TOC don't necessarily have to do it by train - but of course the train is the way most ticket-holders are conveyed as it's the way the railway is set up. Where the railway fails to convey you in line with their obligations, that's a breach of contract, and therefore they must remedy it. They can either provide a taxi at their expense upfront or you can recover it from them later on if they fail to provide it at the time.

The NRCoT enshrines the above common law position into a clearly defined contractual right. NRCoT Condition 28.2 is the relevant condition in this case.

Of course, this all assumes you already hold a ticket. If you don't yet hold a ticket, all bets are off as you don't have a contract until you hold a ticket or start a journey (without a ticket).

 

[najaB]

Yeah, is Section 28.1 the only part that covers that?

Yes, it's covered by 28.1 - the obligation is made pretty clear if you ask me, not sure what else you'd need.

 

[Mathieu]

It's a simple part of the contract. You have paid for a ticket - this entitles you to be transported from A to B. The TOC don't necessarily have to do it by train - but of course the train is the way most ticket-holders are conveyed as it's the way the railway is set up. Where the railway fails to convey you in line with their obligations, that's a breach of contract, and therefore they must remedy it. They can either provide a taxi at their expense upfront or you can recover it from them later on if they fail to provide it at the time.

The NRCoT enshrines the above common law position into a clearly defined contractual right. NRCoT Condition 28.2 is the relevant condition in this case.

Of course, this all assumes you already hold a ticket. If you don't yet hold a ticket, all bets are off as you don't have a contract until you hold a ticket or start a journey (without a ticket).

I already have my ticket, thank you very much.

 

[AndrewE]

@najaB

More likely you'll have to get the taxi yourself and make a claim for a refund.

Haven't there been arguments in other threads about reclaims if you haven't actually been instructed to get into a taxi by railway staff? Or if they haven't summoned the taxi and given the order?

 

[najaB]

@najaB Haven't there been arguments in other threads about reclaims if you haven't actually been instructed to get into a taxi by railway staff? Or if they haven't summoned the taxi and given the order?

There have, but in my (limited) experience ScotRail are less likely to be obstinate than some other TOCs.

You're never guaranteed that your claim will be successful, of course, but I'd rather be home and out of pocket than standing on a platform in the middle of the night.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

@najaB Haven't there been arguments in other threads about reclaims if you haven't actually been instructed to get into a taxi by railway staff? Or if they haven't summoned the taxi and given the order?

That's different though. That was in a case where there wasn't an absolute entitlement to a taxi as it was still expected that there would be further service trains that day to get the OP to their destination. In this case, if you are crowded off the last train of the day, you are absolutely entitled to a taxi. If the train company refuses you one (without offering overnight accommodation) then you are entitled to book yourself one and they don't have any basis to refuse your claim for the cost thereof.

 

[OwlMan]

That's different though. That was in a case where there wasn't an absolute entitlement to a taxi as it was still expected that there would be further service trains that day to get the OP to their destination. In this case, if you are crowded off the last train of the day, you are absolutely entitled to a taxi. If the train company refuses you one (without offering overnight accommodation) then you are entitled to book yourself one and they don't have any basis to refuse your claim for the cost thereof.

That is not true - there is no right to a taxi although the TOC has to arrange onward transport (which could be a train or a bus) or overnight accomodation

 

[ComUtoR]

If the last train was booked to depart at 01XX and the first train was 04XX would that be an acceptable waiting time for 'onward transport' or 'delay' ?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

If the last train was booked to depart at 01XX and the first train was 04XX would that be an acceptable waiting time for 'onward transport' or 'delay' ?

I don't think so. The implication in NRCoT 28.2 is that an overnight delay is what is considered to strand you. Since most people would normally be asleep between 1 and 4am I think that can justifiably be called an overnight delay.

 

[ComUtoR]

Since most people would normally be asleep between 1 and 4am I think that can justifiably be called an overnight delay.

Considering the intent of the passenger is to board their train at 01XX they are no longer 'normal' and are already deep into the 'night' Is there anywhere that specifically states how long is reasonable before other arrangements are made. Especially when you consider typical train 'delays'.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Considering the intent of the passenger is to board their train at 01XX they are no longer 'normal' and are already deep into the 'night' Is there anywhere that specifically states how long is reasonable before other arrangements are made. Especially when you consider typical train 'delays'.

A fairly significant indicator is whether the station closes. Euston, say, which does have a distribution of last/first train like that, is closed and locked between the 0134 and the 04-whatever-it-is. Dumping disrupted passengers onto the streets of a possibly strange city isn't really on.

There's also that most people can get to bed at 0230 and still be up at 7 or so and just be a bit tired (so not lose a day's work). 0530 might be pushing it.

Euston is a bit of an exception, though, and in the vast majority of cases you're looking at a delay of 23something to 05something, which nobody would debate wasn't overnight.

 

[najaB]

If the last train was booked to depart at 01XX and the first train was 04XX would that be an acceptable waiting time for 'onward transport' or 'delay' ?

The 'railway day' is generally considered to be 0200 to 0159 so if I guess overnight means seeing the clock strike 2AM.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 'railway day' is generally considered to be 0200 to 0159 so if I guess overnight means seeing the clock strike 2AM.

The "railway day" is more typically 0000 to 0430 the following day, isn't it? Or is that just ticketing?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Considering the intent of the passenger is to board their train at 01XX they are no longer 'normal' and are already deep into the 'night' Is there anywhere that specifically states how long is reasonable before other arrangements are made. Especially when you consider typical train 'delays'.

No, there is nowhere that it is explicitly spelled out. But the intention of NRCoT 28.2 is sufficiently clear that I don't think a Court would have any difficulty in determining the intent and holding the TOC liable for the cost of alternative transport or overnight accommodation if they failed or refused to provide it.

 

[rishtonlad]

If that happens I thank the bigger problem would be finding somebody at the station with the authority to organise onward transport (or station staff being able to get hold of somebody in control).

 

[Bletchleyite]

If that happens I thank the bigger problem would be finding somebody at the station with the authority to organise onward transport (or station staff being able to get hold of somebody in control).

Yes, quite possibly so, it may well be necessary to make your own arrangements and attempt to claim back.