Hypothetical: Person at gateline claims they haven't travelled

[dmncf]

If a person on the 'paid' side of the ticket gateline at London Bridge National Rail Station is unable to exit because they do not have a ticket, what would rail staff do if the person claimed that they had not travelled, yet rail staff do not recall allowing the person to enter through the ticket gateline?

Is there an offence for which the person could be prosecuted? Would the rail staff be expected to obtain CCTV footage to disprove the person's claim that they had not travelled?

This is a hypothetical scenario. I am asking because this seems an easy excuse to give, yet I am unsure how rail staff deal with it.

 

[yorkie]

It depends on the circumstances, but I'd expect a discussion could take place to establish what the circumstances were.

I was in this position at King's Cross. I informed the staff that I had locked my bike up near Platform 0 and was let out, without quibble.

 

[cactustwirly]

If a person on the 'paid' side of the ticket gateline at London Bridge National Rail Station is unable to exit because they do not have a ticket, what would rail staff do if the person claimed that they had not travelled, yet rail staff do not recall allowing the person to enter through the ticket gateline?

Is there an offence for which the person could be prosecuted? Would the rail staff be expected to obtain CCTV footage to disprove the person's claim that they had not travelled?

This is a hypothetical scenario. I am asking because this seems an easy excuse to give, yet I am unsure how rail staff deal with it.

Nope they can't be prosecuted, unless it was a compulsory ticket area.

 

[najaB]

Is there an offence for which the person could be prosecuted? Would the rail staff be expected to obtain CCTV footage to disprove the person's claim that they had not travelled?

Unless it was a compulsory ticket area there's no specific offence that they could be prosecuted for just for being there.

However, they might find themselves facing prosecution for Byelaw 9.2 since they must have passed a barrier other than by the correct means given that they are on the paid side without a ticket.

 

[gnolife]

However, they might find themselves facing prosecution for Byelaw 9.2 since they must have passed a barrier other than by the correct means given that they are on the paid side without a ticket.

Not necessarily - Suppose I'd been let through the barrier by a member of staff to see somebody onto the train. Said member of staff then goes off duty, with a new member of staff taking their place. The new member of staff has no way of knowing how they got on the paid side of the barrier.

 

[najaB]

Not necessarily - Suppose I'd been let through the barrier by a member of staff to see somebody onto the train. Said member of staff then goes off duty, with a new member of staff taking their place. The new member of staff has no way of knowing how they got on the paid side of the barrier.

Which is why I said "might". It depends on the circumstances.

 

[gnolife]

Which is why I said "might". It depends on the circumstances.

You then followed it up with the assertion that they "must have passed a barrier other than by the correct means", which is what I was pointing out the flaw in.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Can easily happen at Manchester if you use a specific elevator to access the station, you're in behind the gateline.

 

[startingaparty]

Can easily happen at Manchester if you use a specific elevator to access the station, you're in behind the gateline.

I've used that lift on a number of occasions now, each time expecting to find a member of staff checking tickets either at the entrance onto Fairfield Street or in the Waiting Lounge and every time there's been no one. It really negates the point of having people check tickets at the main entrance to Platform 13/14 when any savvy fare dodger is going to know about this exit.

 

[Starmill]

There is an entrance on platform one at Manchester Piccadilly that puts you inside the gateline. It's often used by people coming from one of the car parks or nearby offices. I've seen people walk up to the inside of the gates and say "Hi, I need a ticket" "Where have you come from?" "Erm, downstairs?"

 

[najaB]

You then followed it up with the assertion that they "must have passed a barrier other than by the correct means", which is what I was pointing out the flaw in.

I thought it was obvious that a prosecution would only be brought if the circumstances warranted it - i.e. not in the situation you highlighted.

 

[Puffing Devil]

There is an entrance on platform one at Manchester Piccadilly that puts you inside the gateline. It's often used by people coming from one of the car parks or nearby offices. I've seen people walk up to the inside of the gates and say "Hi, I need a ticket" "Where have you come from?" "Erm, downstairs?"

Isn't that the National Rail office block?

 

[Elecman]

Network Rail Square One

 

[Signal Head]

There is an entrance on platform one at Manchester Piccadilly that puts you inside the gateline. It's often used by people coming from one of the car parks or nearby offices. I've seen people walk up to the inside of the gates and say "Hi, I need a ticket" "Where have you come from?" "Erm, downstairs?"

I had an encounter with one of the Carlisle staff there a couple of years ago. Leaving Square One, you are directed by signage to use the footpath at the side of the roadway, and not to walk in the roadway itself.

The footpath leads you to the ungated P1 entrance. I'd done this before on several occasions, in both directions, without problems, just stated at the gateline that I was coming from, or going to, Sq. One, so that suggests it is the accepted walking route and that the gateline staff are aware of that.

However on this occasion that wasn't good enough for this particular member of staff, apparently you are expected to walk along the road down the side of the station, in contravention of the signage, which brings you to the public side entrance to the concourse.

Having no valid ticket eventually, in frustration, I showed my pass, clearly marked "Not Valid for Duty Purposes", which would have been an irregularity if I had actually arrived on a train, and was let through.

I have wondered what the result would have been if I hadn't had that option, which many visitors to Square One won't have.

 

[matt_world2004]

This happened to me at West Drayton. I was working at the bus stop outside and walked upto the platform to look for a (non existant) toilet that was listed on national rail enquiries. In that time RPIs had appeared on the validators. It took considerable explaining before they were convinced

 

[Bletchleyite]

Can easily happen at Manchester if you use a specific elevator to access the station, you're in behind the gateline.

Same at Liverpool Lime St low level (where using the lift both bypasses the gateline and saves a fairly long walk). Or just the barrier was open when you went in and closed when you went out.

There is an occasional revenue sting on the Lime St lift, and when I last got checked there you could see visible disappointment at the production of a valid ticket

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've used that lift on a number of occasions now, each time expecting to find a member of staff checking tickets either at the entrance onto Fairfield Street or in the Waiting Lounge and every time there's been no one. It really negates the point of having people check tickets at the main entrance to Platform 13/14 when any savvy fare dodger is going to know about this exit.

Given that flashing any bit of orange card will get you past the contract staff concerned, I think they are more there to provide a challenge to "pay when challenged" fare dodgers rather than to catch the "experts".

 

[_toommm_]

Given that flashing any bit of orange card will get you past the contract staff concerned, I think they are more there to provide a challenge to "pay when challenged" fare dodgers rather than to catch the "experts".

Unless you access P13/14 on a morning, when the two guys there will stop everyone for a good while to look at tickets, quiz people, form an orderly queue.

 

[dmncf]

If we put aside the stations where there are legitimate public routes known to rail staff which bypass the ticket gateline, such as the lifts at Liverpool Line Street and Manchester Piccadilly, what is our conclusion for the majority of gated National Rail stations? If a person on the 'paid' side of the ticket gateline is unable to exit because they do not have a ticket, and they claim that they have not travelled and they stick to their story, does this leave rail staff unable to prosecute?

 

[najaB]

If a person on the 'paid' side of the ticket gateline is unable to exit because they do not have a ticket, and they claim that they have not travelled and they stick to their story, does this leave rail staff unable to prosecute?

If the person is unable to provide satisfactory explanation of how they came to be behind the gateline then Byelaw 9.2 would seem to be the only one applicable. I suppose at a stretch BTP could prosecute for loitering.

 

[The_Train]

It's an interesting point. On a few occasions recently I've ventured to the local (on foot) to do a bit of spotting and have been faced by manual ticket checks in operation (sometimes just Virgin staff and sometimes BTP are present). Firstly I would say that I've had no issues whatsoever and on each occasion I've passed through I've simply stated why I was there and they've let me on my way (I must look like a trainspotter) but I do worry that there could be an occasion where I get onto the platforms but am faced by a member of staff who might not believe me as I try to leave. I'm sure that my number logs, date/time stamped photos that I may have taken and indeed station CCTV would prove my story to be correct but it does make me feel uncomfortable to be honest.

 

[londonbridge]

I go running quite a bit and on a couple of occasions I've stopped at an ungated station, gone on to the platform and used the loo before exiting the station and continuing on my way. Never gave a thought to being stopped and asked for a ticket, although the fact I was wearing running kit and/or being a little sweaty and/or slightly breathless would surely be evidence that I hadn't just come off a train (even more so if no train was due at the time). At a stretch I suppose they could argue a prosecution for being in a CTA without a ticket (I assume there are ungated stations which are CTA's)?

 

[PeterC]

If we put aside the stations where there are legitimate public routes known to rail staff which bypass the ticket gateline, such as the lifts at Liverpool Line Street and Manchester Piccadilly, what is our conclusion for the majority of gated National Rail stations? If a person on the 'paid' side of the ticket gateline is unable to exit because they do not have a ticket, and they claim that they have not travelled and they stick to their story, does this leave rail staff unable to prosecute?

I can't see that it would, in theory, prevent prosecution. The result in court might be a whole different story.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I go running quite a bit and on a couple of occasions I've stopped at an ungated station, gone on to the platform and used the loo before exiting the station and continuing on my way. Never gave a thought to being stopped and asked for a ticket, although the fact I was wearing running kit and/or being a little sweaty and/or slightly breathless would surely be evidence that I hadn't just come off a train (even more so if no train was due at the time). At a stretch I suppose they could argue a prosecution for being in a CTA without a ticket (I assume there are ungated stations which are CTA's)?

On the National Rail network, very few stations are CTAs. Birmingham Moor Street and Snow Hill are two notable examples, apart from stations operated on behalf of Transport for London, which are also CTAs.

I think there may be one or two unbarriered Underground stations that are CTAs, but as far as I'm aware there aren't any such National Rail stations (other than, of course, when barriers aren't manned, as frequently seems to be the case at Moor Street!).

 

[paddington]

The TfL tram stops are all (except Wimbledon - but the barriers on that side are usually open outside of working hours) unbarriered and are CTAs

 

[Kite159]

On the National Rail network, very few stations are CTAs. Birmingham Moor Street and Snow Hill are two notable examples, apart from stations operated on behalf of Transport for London, which are also CTAs.

I think there may be one or two unbarriered Underground stations that are CTAs, but as far as I'm aware there aren't any such National Rail stations (other than, of course, when barriers aren't manned, as frequently seems to be the case at Moor Street!).

Some of the smaller London Overground stations which don't have barriers? I can remember one where the oyster readers at the top of the stairs with a red box beyond

 

[TurbostarFan]

If the person is unable to provide satisfactory explanation of how they came to be behind the gateline then Byelaw 9.2 would seem to be the only one applicable. I suppose at a stretch BTP could prosecute for loitering.

No they could not. Unless the person is given the oppurtunity to leave the railway and refuses to do so or keeps coming back. In such case where the BTP are involved, they could arrest and/or prosecute for obstructing Police.

 

[TurbostarFan]

With some TOCs (at least), it is just a case of let them through. Nothing will be done unless the staff have actually witnessed the person getting off a train.

 

[paddington]

Some of the smaller London Overground stations which don't have barriers? I can remember one where the oyster readers at the top of the stairs with a red box beyond

Yes and DLR stations too (wonder if those protesters who climbed on a DLR train could be prosecuted for having no ticket)

 

[Stigy]

If the person is unable to provide satisfactory explanation of how they came to be behind the gateline then Byelaw 9.2 would seem to be the only one applicable. I suppose at a stretch BTP could prosecute for loitering.

There’s no offence applicable that BTP would be able to prosecute for that the railway can’t as far as I’m aware?Loitering in these circumstances would only amount to a breach of Byelaw 13.

I’ve reported people before although they’ve said they haven’t travelled, because I believed the had travelled, using reasonable doubt, it’s often only feasible for one to have travelled by train if they’re on the ‘paid’ side of the barriers. I appreciate its different at certain locations. Sometimes people have coughed to the offence under questioning, which is a nice clear-cut 5(3)a, where some remain tight lipped. Sometimes I’ve gained the required evidence to support my report by way of CCTV showing them alighting from a train etc. Obviously I can’t say where they’ve travelled from, but that’s not a massive issue.