• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

I see we are no good at building roads either :)

Blackpool boy

On Moderation
Joined
29 Apr 2024
Messages
197
Location
Blackpool

23 years is some going

Works on 'road from hell' to end after 23 years​

Roadworks and traffic cones can be seen on the multi-lane road with cars diverted, on the Heads of the Valleys road in Brynmawr, Wales in December 2020.
Image source,Getty Images
Image caption,
Contraflows and even partial closures have been a regular occurance on the major route along the top of the south Wales valleys
Peter Shuttleworth
BBC News
Reporting from
Merthyr Tydfil
Nick Servini
BBC Wales Today presenter
Reporting from
Merthyr Tydfil

    • Published
      5 January 2025
Updated 40 minutes ago
Tony Blair was just halfway through his time as prime minister and FA Cup finals were being played in Cardiff when one of the UK's most expensive and complex road upgrade projects this century began.
But after 23 years, roadworks on the A465 Heads of the Valleys road in south Wales are finally going.
The 28-mile (45km) £2bn upgrade to almost motorway standard was designed to bring prosperity to one of the UK's most deprived areas.
But some of those living there have called it the "road from hell".

'Not even Chris Rea would come here'​

Work to make the road that links Swansea to Monmouthshire a full dual carriageway began back in 2002.
This was 12 years after Margaret Thatcher's Conservative UK government drew up an upgrade programme in 1990.
Parts were already two lanes each way, but there was severe congestion and frequent serious road crashes on other parts of the route.
Almost 35 years later after enormous overspends, major delays, devolution, a global pandemic, unsuitable ground for road building and hundreds of carriageway closures, the end is finally in sight.

p0kgw3s7.jpg


01:02
Media caption,
After 23 years, roadworks on the A465 Heads of the Valleys road are about to go
"It's like the road from hell," said one man from affected Merthyr Tydfil. "Not even Chris Rea would dare come here."
The road crosses the south Wales coalfields, a national park and twists mightily close to people's homes.
The work was split into six sections, done from the most to least dangerous for drivers.
Almost 70 structures - including more than 40 new bridges and a dozen new junctions - have been built.
The new Heads of the Valley route passes near houses in Merthyr
Image source,FCC Construcción
Image caption,
The upgraded Heads of the Valleys dual carriageway route passes right next to built up areas like here just north of Merthyr Tydfil
Workers have planted 285,000 trees to mitigate its significant environmental impact - offsetting more than seven million kilograms of CO2 a year - in a country that declared a climate emergency six years ago.
Creatures, including bats, dormice and great crested newts, have also been moved.
"The part of Wales we're in is home to some nationally and European protected valuable species and habitats," said chartered environmentalist Tim Wroblewski.
An aerial view of the Dowlais Top roundabout during construction of the Heads of the Valleys upgrade
Image source,Getty Images
Image caption,
Tailbacks have been a regular occurance around Merthyr Tydfil as the Heads of the Valleys road upgrade was undertaken
Engineers have also built almost nine miles (14km) of routes for walkers and cyclists in the latest section - shifting almost 2,200 Olympic-sized swimming pools' worth of earth.

Hope A465 could ease pressure on M4​

Welsh ministers, who took on the building of the project after devolution in 1999, insist the improvement will help communities "left behind after the mines closed" in the 1980s and early 1990.
"In 50 years' time, experts will look back and say the single biggest thing the Welsh government has done to raise the prospects of Heads of the Valleys communities is building this road," said Wales' transport minister Ken Skates.
The A465 was part of a World War Two prosperity project to connect the south Wales' steel industry with the UK's old car manufacturing hub of the Midlands.
While the M5 and M50 were built as fast roads, the valleys were a tougher challenge.
Improvements were needed due to poor visibility leading to serious crashes on what was predominantly a three-lane road with few safe overtaking places.
Part of the A465 before the road was widened
Image source,Jaggery | Geograph
Image caption,
Engineers said the Heads of the Valley's old configuration with poor visibility and few overtaking places meant the road needed to be upgraded
Now drivers can mostly do 70mph without having to stop for roundabouts, which is hoped will make it easier for local people to get around and create a resilient alternative route between the Midlands and south-west Wales, easing pressure on the often congested M4 at Newport.
"This isn't just about moving people and goods around," added Skates.
The new junction near to a school and hospital in Merthyr
Image source,FCC Construcción
Image caption,
Planners hope the new upgraded Heads of the Valleys will cut down on travel times to schools and the area's main general hospital in Merthyr Tydfil
"This is about generating jobs, prosperity, opportunities and better connecting and benefiting communities across the region."

Brexit and funding issues​

The construction cost given for the entire project is more than £1.3bn.
The headline price tag for the last two sections currently under construction is £590m. But the figure for the final two stages is also actually £1.4bn - more than £250m than initially revealed - because of the way the project is funded and the Welsh government has not yet paid a penny.
Explaining why costs to pay for the final stage have risen, the government said it had to pay non-recoverable VAT after "detailed discussions with HMRC".
It is being financed using something called the Mutual Investment Model (MIM) - which is a bit like getting a car on finance.
But in this case the Welsh government will pay about £40m a year for 30 years and get an 11-mile stretch of road that will be maintained by the private firm until it is brought back into public ownership in 2055.
The new Taf Fawr and A470 Junction on the Heads of the Valleys road
Image source,FCC Construcción
Image caption,
Specialist road building engineers from Spain helped construct the key Taf Fawr junction structure where the A465 meets the A470
Plaid Cymru has said this way of funding was a "waste of public money" and private firms would "cream off" a "substantial amount of profit".
The UK left the European Union during the scheme, meaning access to money that had helped on previous sections was no longer available.
The Welsh government said without borrowing cash the way it has, it would not have been able to finish the final section.
Skates said trying to build something of a similar magnitude in future would be difficult.
The previous five-mile (8km) section also caused controversy too, opening three years late and costing £336m - £133m more than initially agreed.
A general view of the A465 Dual carriageway project between Brynmawr and Gilwern showing the split level carriageway at Clydach Gorge near Abegavenny
Image source,Getty Images
Image caption,
Heads of the Valleys road engineers built almost one-and-a-half miles of split level carriageway at Clydach Gorge
It came after a dispute about how much building work was needed and construction completion, external on the delicate site through the protected steep Clydach Gorge site, which includes hidden caves and geological hazardous terrain.
"As a whole, the Heads of the Valleys project is one of the UK's biggest road upgrade projects for many years," said Keith Jones of the Institution of Civil Engineers.
"And what's been so challenging is keeping the existing road operational while the work has gone on in some challenging and bleak terrain."
These factors combined mean the entire cost will be about £2bn when everything is included.
The Labour Welsh government said it had learned lessons from the project, changing construction contracts and reviewing indicators of contractor performance.
But Welsh Conservative transport spokesman Peter Fox said the projects cost and delays "epitomises Labour's 25 years of failure here in Wales".
He said the final "gargantuan" cost would have almost covered the scrapped M4 relief road, and the Welsh public would question if it was worth it.
The M4 motorway around Newport
Image source,Getty Images
Image caption,
A relief road for Wales' most congested stretch of road - the M4 at Newport, about 25 miles south of the Heads of the Valleys, was scrapped in 2019
The £1.6bn M4 relief road south of Newport's Brynglas Tunnels congestion hotspot was axed in 2019 - 29 years after it was first proposed - because of its cost and impact on the environment.
Almost four times as many cars a day use that stretch of motorway than the Heads of the Valleys road.
"We don't want to invest in those areas that are already successful and where there's already opportunity and plenty of jobs," added Skates.
But those in the communities near the long-running roadworks have been affected the most.
"It's been a nightmare," said Tanya Houghton, from Merthyr Tydfil.
"It's been terrible as my partner has been working in that direction so getting to and from work has been a nightmare, I'll be glad when it's finished and I think it'll be worth it."
Sisters Kayleigh and Tanya Houghton while out shopping in Merthyr.

Image caption,
Sisters Kayleigh and Tanya Houghton didn't agree that the Heads of the Valleys road improvements was needed
Her sister Kayleigh did not agree, saying it was not needed and "cost too much money".
One trader in the town centre claimed trade had dropped 50% due to the roadworks.
"It puts people off coming to town as they're in the queues for so long, it's blinking terrible and it has really affected us," said Paula Owen, who has run Paula's Boutique in St Tydfil Shopping Centre for more than six years.
"With impact of Covid, the cost of living crisis and this, it's been hard."
Paula Owen looking at the camera and is going through clothes on a clothes rail. She is wearing colourful glasses and has grey hair.

Image caption,
Paula's family used to run five clothes shops in the south Wales valleys but she said she's now the only one left trading
She said the works had affected trade for a "long time" but the road would "make a big difference when its finished".
All major road building projects in Wales, as well as the M4 relief road, were scrapped under Mark Drakeford's administration, but the current transport minister said there was a "careful balance" to be struck.
"You've got to drive down carbon emissions but also drive prosperity and improve people's lives by investing in skills and infrastructure," said Skates.
Three different south Wales firms that employ chartered evironmentalist Tim Wroblewski, groundwork specialist Tony Gibbons and civil engineer Ed Jones say they have benefited from working on the Heads of the Valleys project

Image caption,
Three different south Wales firms say they have benefited from working on the Heads of the Valleys project
Politicians also point to a legacy of 250 engineering apprentices that have been trained on this scheme as well as the 5,000 workers that have been employed at various points during the project, with some days 1,000 contractors working on site at any one time.
Two businesses at each end of the project said they had doubled their number of employees.
"The project has enabled us to upscale in both employees and equipment," said Tony Gibbons, whose firm Atlas are looking after the drainage of this project.
"We are employing 60 plus people from the local community and it has been transformative for us.
"It's also helped us successfully tender for other projects as people are confident they can rely on our work because of what we have been able to do on this scheme."
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Topological

Established Member
Joined
20 Feb 2023
Messages
1,861
Location
Swansea
What I like about the article is that it does not actually say the end date. I got excited thinking it was imminent, but the roads website still suggests May.

It won't be long until there are speed limits on huge sections. They already screwed up the Abergavenny end.
 

stuu

Established Member
Joined
2 Sep 2011
Messages
3,404

deltic

Established Member
Joined
8 Feb 2010
Messages
3,490
Lower Thames Crossing, spent c£800m to date with little to show for it and it is still waiting for a decision from the SofS whether it will go ahead or not.
 

AndrewE

Established Member
Joined
9 Nov 2015
Messages
5,953
I don't see how you could possibly come to the conclusion that we can't build roads
Really? Do you remember https://flic.kr/p/pMWfnz
Full closure of the £32m King’s Dyke Crossing at Whittlesey is on the table “if there is a change to the current rate of movement and further increase in cracking” Drivers using the bridge (the Ralph Butcher Causeway) can expect at the very least single lane traffic to continue well into the winter as contractors continue to find the reasons for “movement in the embankment”.
A briefing on the crisis has been released by Cambridgeshire County Council to Whittlesey councillor Chris Boden. It makes grim reading.
“We are unable to confirm the date for remedial works to be undertaken because of the complexities in design, which need to be carefully considered in determining the solution,” says the briefing.
...
“Settlement and horizontal movements are continuing at a rate that is significantly greater than predicted and, in some cases, appears to be accelerating, confirming that there is currently no reason to assume that the rate of movement is reducing, and therefore, supports the decision to maintain the current lane closure,” says the county council.
The main issue is the 70-degree embankment on the bridge, sitting between the new rail bridge and the new subway; it is a steep slope built up of reinforced earth that supports the new carriageway.
 

stuu

Established Member
Joined
2 Sep 2011
Messages
3,404
Lower Thames Crossing, spent c£800m to date with little to show for it and it is still waiting for a decision from the SofS whether it will go ahead or not.
10-20% of the budget for design and planning is entirely normal across infrastructure and construction projects
 

Blackpool boy

On Moderation
Joined
29 Apr 2024
Messages
197
Location
Blackpool
It's been built in six separate projects, it was always going to be done consecutively because of the Welsh government's limited capex budget. I don't see how you could possibly come to the conclusion that we can't build roads
It was rather tongue in cheek with the little smiley at the end of the title, especially as i know we do build roads often across the country.
 

Topological

Established Member
Joined
20 Feb 2023
Messages
1,861
Location
Swansea
It's been built in six separate projects, it was always going to be done consecutively because of the Welsh government's limited capex budget. I don't see how you could possibly come to the conclusion that we can't build roads
Isn't this funded in a way to avoid the capex constraint?

Maybe if this private partnership system really works they can find a solution for Newport. The BBC article goes into detail about the local companies who have shown they can build difficult projects.
 

AndrewE

Established Member
Joined
9 Nov 2015
Messages
5,953
It was rather tongue in cheek with the little smiley at the end of the title, especially as i know we do build roads often across the country.
maybe, but the Whittlesea Kings Dyke bridge debacle supports your title...
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
32,842
Isn't this funded in a way to avoid the capex constraint?

Maybe if this private partnership system really works they can find a solution for Newport. The BBC article goes into detail about the local companies who have shown they can build difficult projects.
Aren’t they politically set against a Newport solution? I doubt they’d go ahead whatever possible financial arrangements can be made.
 

StoneRoad

Member
Joined
6 Jan 2010
Messages
335
Location
Haltwhistle
[with tongue in cheek]

It seems to be a regular pastime - both of politicians and others - to complain bitterly that "X" needs to be done but when "X" is done, to complain bitterly about the cost, length of time taken and other factors ...
[Not just in this country, though !]
 

Topological

Established Member
Joined
20 Feb 2023
Messages
1,861
Location
Swansea
maybe, but the Whittlesea Kings Dyke bridge debacle supports your title...
As does M49 Junction 1: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-67508846

A "ghost" junction which has lain dormant for years will finally be connected to the main roadway.

National Highways spent more than £40m in 2020 building a roundabout above the M49 motorway between Severn Beach and Chittening, intended to be Junction 1.

The road was never completed due to "unforeseen circumstances", a council report said.

Earlier, South Gloucestershire Council granted planning permission to build a 160m (525ft) link road to the junction.

The link road is expected to take 12 months to complete, a date for the start of construction has not yet been confirmed.

The road at the Western Approach Distribution Park will be funded by the Department for Transport (DfT).
 

deltic

Established Member
Joined
8 Feb 2010
Messages
3,490
10-20% of the budget for design and planning is entirely normal across infrastructure and construction projects
Its more that we have spent 15 years to get here and with no indication that it will ever get built.
 

Dai Corner

Established Member
Joined
20 Jul 2015
Messages
6,768
Arguably, the A465 project started in the 1960s when the original three lane road was built over parts of the former Heads of the Valleys railway and it has taken about sixty years to get where we are now. I believe the original idea was to connect the mines and heavy industry of south Wales with the manufacturers in the Midlands, neither of which are nearly as significant as they were back then.

The road is an impressive piece of civil engineering and no doubt many engineers and contractors will have it on their CVs as can example of a major project they've been involved in. I'm less sure about its economic value to Wales, especially compared to the M4 Relief Road we could have paid for instead.

The latest section (Dowlais-Hirwaun) was indeed privately financed. The Welsh Government will be paying an annual fee to the contractors for the next thirty years. The contractors also assumed the risk of any cost overruns so if they got their sums right will be making a handsome profit. In return the Government won't have to worry about anything going wrong for the next three decades, long after anyone involved has retired.
 

Ghostbus

On Moderation
Joined
17 Sep 2024
Messages
331
Location
England
What's worse though, that a critical road project took 23 years to construct, or that work didn't even begin until 12 years after plans were draw up? It being rather obvious that delay only made the delays in construction more likely and more disruptive. How does that compare with our record of improving railway capacity in this country? Pretty similar I imagine.

Always a little depressing to read stuff like this too:
The A465 was part of a World War Two prosperity project to connect the south Wales' steel industry with the UK's old car manufacturing hub of the Midlands.
Still, BMWs are pretty decent motors. Perfect for this kind of new road.
 

Topological

Established Member
Joined
20 Feb 2023
Messages
1,861
Location
Swansea
That is because Amazon, who would be the principal beneficiary of the junction, refused to make any contribution whatsoever.
Yet Amazon were allowed to build there and have not been told to demolish their distribution centre. Says a lot about UK planning really.

I would argue that getting the Amazon lorries onto the M49 and off the local roads has much wider benefit. Whilst it would be optimal to pursue Amazon for contributions, if we are to be toothless as a country then at least get the road built to benefit those facing the cost of having Amazon lorries around.

We do need to be better at enforcing contributions from private sector beneficiaries, but that should be prior to the planning rather than mid-build (or later).

Arguably, the A465 project started in the 1960s when the original three lane road was built over parts of the former Heads of the Valleys railway and it has taken about sixty years to get where we are now. I believe the original idea was to connect the mines and heavy industry of south Wales with the manufacturers in the Midlands, neither of which are nearly as significant as they were back then.

The road is an impressive piece of civil engineering and no doubt many engineers and contractors will have it on their CVs as can example of a major project they've been involved in. I'm less sure about its economic value to Wales, especially compared to the M4 Relief Road we could have paid for instead.

The latest section (Dowlais-Hirwaun) was indeed privately financed. The Welsh Government will be paying an annual fee to the contractors for the next thirty years. The contractors also assumed the risk of any cost overruns so if they got their sums right will be making a handsome profit. In return the Government won't have to worry about anything going wrong for the next three decades, long after anyone involved has retired.
No doubt it is an impressive road, especially the central section. It looked a long way from finished last summer so getting it open this year is a great achievement.

The roundabout at Hirwaun/Rhigos seemed to be very slow to get its flyover though. It is very nice now that is finished though. We had a long piece of dual carriageway at the Swansea end for a long time though.

How long until they decide the two roundabouts on the Glynneath to M4 section need to go.

The private funding model seems clever for getting big capital projects off the balance sheet, but the rights and wrongs risk descending into politics.
 

AlastairFraser

Established Member
Joined
12 Aug 2018
Messages
3,299
That's an issue that we are seeing all over the Fens, to be honest.
The big drainage problems to create miles of good-quality agricultural land completely screwed up the natural water table and land level, so we should expect to see a lot more of these types of issues in future.
This document is quite good at explaining what has happened over time: https://www.discoveringbritain.org/content/discoveringbritain/viewpoint pdfs/Holme Fen viewpoint.pdf
 

RT4038

Established Member
Joined
22 Feb 2014
Messages
4,837
Its reasons like this I’m genuinely concerned we will see an authoritarian regime in this country by the end of this century
Why do you think an authoritarian regime would be any better / (have any more reason to) filling in potholes?
 

m0ffy

Member
Joined
24 May 2022
Messages
177
Location
Leicestershire
Why do you think an authoritarian regime would be any better / (have any more reason to) filling in potholes?
Because authoritarians’ target voters are easily swayed by this sort of thing.

“Yes, he’s conducting ethic cleansing, but the road is so smooth!”
 

The exile

Established Member
Joined
31 Mar 2010
Messages
4,707
Location
Somerset
Why do you think an authoritarian regime would be any better / (have any more reason to) filling in potholes?
I don’t (I remember East German roads all too well) - but frustration with “nothing happening” leads to people wanting those in authority to JFDI.
 

Sad Sprinter

Established Member
Joined
5 Jun 2017
Messages
2,557
Location
Way on down South London town
Why do you think an authoritarian regime would be any better / (have any more reason to) filling in potholes?

Because I think people are going to get so fed up with the left/right spectrum being unable to do anything they’re more likely to take political risks with more extreme voices and ideologies
 

Topological

Established Member
Joined
20 Feb 2023
Messages
1,861
Location
Swansea
Why do you think an authoritarian regime would be any better / (have any more reason to) filling in potholes?
You can't fight a war without smooth roads to move the war machines on.

The problem with filling in potholes is they have to close the roads to do it. People do not like things to be closed. I think we are safe from the authoritarians for a bit.
 

61653 HTAFC

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Dec 2012
Messages
18,527
Location
Yorkshire
Here's a video from Auto Shenanigans about a relatively new road bridge (on the A14 extension) that's having a few... issues! (Apologies for the sweary but minimally-censored thumbnail)
 

DM352

Member
Joined
9 Oct 2019
Messages
196
Location
White north
This is more for SABRE road forum discussion but the Derby A38 grade separation of three junctions will likely never happen. The last time visited the UK they had some boarded up houses but expect it will be a repeat of the A40 near Neasdon or parts of the North Circular near Brent Cross that never got built.
 

Top