Idea: Could Class 185s operate at 110mph?

[Agent_Squash]

With several Class 185s due to go off lease from TPE at the end of next year onwards, I was wondering - is it possible for them to be uprated to 110mph for usage on Lakes services to Manchester? With the same engines as the Voyagers, power doesn't seem to be an issue - but would anything else appear as a big 'no-no' from the get go?

 

[55z]

Currently the 185 are governed to 102 mph. It would be frightening to run at 110 mph on the Lakes line ! Lots of other issues besides engines, suspension, electronics for faster WCML runs. In any case the 185's are an inter city unit not a branch line train. In any case the Windermere branch would be better served by a 2/3/4 coach 158 or 156.

 

[DanNCL]

The Windermere branch should be getting 195s when they enter service, so I'm not sure what use upgrading the 185s for 110mph would be here...

The 185s won't be working on the WCML or ECML once the new TPE and Northern stock arrives, so 100mph will be plenty for them.

 

[driver9000]

What would be the benefit when they would spend more time well below their current 100mph maximum? The Windermere line is 60mph and Barrow isn't much higher. Most of the 185 work is below 100mph without long sprints at high speed to take advantage of an extra 10mph.

 

[Ianno87]

The incredible acceleration of 185s rather negates any need for 110 capability, in my view.

 

[Agent_Squash]

What would be the benefit when they would spend more time well below their current 100mph maximum? The Windermere line is 60mph and Barrow isn't much higher. Most of the 185 work is below 100mph without long sprints at high speed to take advantage of an extra 10mph.

The WCML fast runs that proceed the short (in comparison) runs on the Barrow/Windermere lines?

I should have made it clearer - for the services to Manchester Airport to Lakes. 195s could then be repurposed for other connect services.

 

[gingertom]

The WCML fast runs that precede the short (in comparison) runs on the Barrow/Windermere lines. I should have made it clear - for the services to Manchester Airport to Lakes. 195s could then be repurposed for other connect services.

you raise a very interesting question.
the 185 is a member of the Siemens Desiro family, as is the 350 (amongst others), some of which have been tweaked to run at 110mph. The engine and transmission is the same as the 180 which is geared for 125mph. In theory they could similarly be re-geared for a higher top speed. Whether NR and/or Siemens would allow it is a different matter.

 

[Spartacus]

Regearing for 110 mph, if it was possible, would probably result in a disproportionate loss in acceleration, as well as increasing maintenance costs. Given their (silly) use at times on genuine stopping services, I can't see the idea being taken seriously.

 

[gingertom]

Regearing for 110 mph, if it was possible, would probably result in a disproportionate loss in acceleration, as well as increasing maintenance costs. Given their (silly) use at times on genuine stopping services, I can't see the idea being taken seriously.

The idea of running 110mph on the WCML was accepted and implemented for the TPE 350s. 185s are a different ballgame. I agree that the maintenance requirements would increase, but the reduction in what is a very healthy acceleration by regearing would be proportionate to that change. It all depends on the work needed, after all the 180 employs the same engine and transmission and can achieve 125mph. For all we know the question may already have been asked and met with a big fat no. More likely a "yes, but here's the costs of doing so".

 

[a_c_skinner]

I thought the 185s were designed to have enough power for hilly routes across The Pennines, surely someone can find a route where this can be useful and for which they can be cleared?

 

[Agent_Squash]

The idea of running 110mph on the WCML was accepted and implemented for the TPE 350s. 185s are a different ballgame. I agree that the maintenance requirements would increase, but the reduction in what is a very healthy acceleration by regearing would be proportionate to that change. It all depends on the work needed, after all the 180 employs the same engine and transmission and can achieve 125mph. For all we know the question may already have been asked and met with a big fat no. More likely a "yes, but here's the costs of doing so".

I believe I read the 185s are already significantly detuned (leading to the large amounts of hunting) - to below 600hp. Even if a regearing could lead to a reduction in acceleration, this could be balanced by tuning the engine to use more of its installed power.

 

[Royston Vasey]

The idea of running 110mph on the WCML was accepted and implemented for the TPE 350s. 185s are a different ballgame. I agree that the maintenance requirements would increase, but the reduction in what is a very healthy acceleration by regearing would be proportionate to that change. It all depends on the work needed, after all the 180 employs the same engine and transmission and can achieve 125mph. For all we know the question may already have been asked and met with a big fat no. More likely a "yes, but here's the costs of doing so".

Don't forget the slab front. It has an exponential effect on air resistance with increasingly high speed compared to a streamlined unit.

 

[driver9000]

I believe I read the 185s are already significantly detuned (leading to the large amounts of hunting) - to below 600hp. Even if a regearing could lead to a reduction in acceleration, this could be balanced by tuning the engine to use more of its installed power.

Not to my knowledge they aren't. They certainly don't feel like they've been derated and nothing has been communicated to the crews.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not to my knowledge they aren't. They certainly don't feel like they've been derated and nothing has been communicated to the crews.

They mostly run on 2 engines out of 3, though, don't they? If they went back to three that would make up for it.

 

[driver9000]

They mostly run on 2 engines out of 3, though, don't they? If they went back to three that would make up for it.

The default is 3 engines but Eco mode and Speed set shuts an engine down and the recent hot spell came with an instruction to run with Eco disabled to reduce the load on cross feeding for powering air conditioning. A small number of units have an engine isolated for various reasons but this is nowhere near the level it was at a year or so ago.

 

[Starmill]

It's probably possible, but the more relevant question is, is it desirable? How much extra energy would their engines use to reach that speed, and what would be the impact on maintenance and emissions? They are not known for being energy efficient or low emission as it is.

 

[DarloRich]

It's probably possible, but the more relevant question is, is it desirable? How much extra energy would their engines use to reach that speed, and what would be the impact on maintenance and emissions? They are not known for being energy efficient or low emission as it is.

Is the correct answer!

I think they are really good units but cant see what benefit running faster would bring

 

[rebmcr]

Aside from all the other concerns noted upthread, they are pretty heavy (to the point of being disqualified from MU speed easements). The track access charges would probably have to go up.

AFAIAA, track wear scales exponentially with speed & weight...

 

[whhistle]

I thought the 185s were designed to have enough power for hilly routes across The Pennines, surely someone can find a route where this can be useful and for which they can be cleared?

Birmingham/Stansted/Nottingham/Cardiff routes.
Not a massive upgrade from the Turbostars but at least all services would be 3 car.
Have no idea if they're cleared.

 

[SP Man]

When I was involved in testing and commissioning them at the very start and in Germany before the engines where governed down they would reach 110mph without any problem. If they had the overspeed taken off would have gone easily over 110. It's just that they need to go 10% over the speed and everything else capable of sustained running and braking at those speeds

 

[a_c_skinner]

Birmingham/Stansted/Nottingham/Cardiff routes.

Forgive me, are those the routes to take advantage of hill climbing? (Mind you Barrow in Furness wasn't either!)

 

[londonmidland]

Birmingham/Stansted/Nottingham/Cardiff routes.
Not a massive upgrade from the Turbostars but at least all services would be 3 car.
Have no idea if they're cleared.

185s won’t be able to use the higher sprinter speeds, so a lower speed overall but the higher acceleration may compensate for that.

 

[dk1]

Currently the 185 are governed to 102 mph. It would be frightening to run at 110 mph on the Lakes line ! Lots of other issues besides engines, suspension, electronics for faster WCML runs. In any case the 185's are an inter city unit not a branch line train. In any case the Windermere branch would be better served by a 2/3/4 coach 158 or 156.

Same with the class 170s. I've tried many times to get passed this but not possible. Some of the Liverpool Street drivers tried their best when working for Hull Trains on the ECML.

 

[Philip]

The noise of those engines roaring thundering away at 125mph would be pretty impressive I think!

 

[LOL The Irony]

The noise of those engines roaring thundering away at 125mph would be pretty impressive I think!

It's the same as thundering away at 100mph.

 

[Agent_Squash]

Forgive me, are those the routes to take advantage of hill climbing? (Mind you Barrow in Furness wasn't either!)

Barrow had the long WCML stretch, though.

 

[gingertom]

When I was involved in testing and commissioning them at the very start and in Germany before the engines where governed down they would reach 110mph without any problem. If they had the overspeed taken off would have gone easily over 110. It's just that they need to go 10% over the speed and everything else capable of sustained running and braking at those speeds

so if they were to be tweaked for 110mph running they would need to be tested at 121mph?

 

[SP Man]

so if they were to be tweaked for 110mph running they would need to be tested at 121mph?

They need to prove it can work to that, does not need to actually drive at that (not authorised) just need to prove it can.

 

[Elecman]

so if they were to be tweaked for 110mph running they would need to be tested at 121mph?

If they havent been previously approved for 110mph then yes they would have to be tested at 121mph to prove ride and braking characteristics

 

[sw1ller]

I’ve heard stories of 175’s hitting 125 during the early days of testing on the WCML so I can’t see any issues of a 185 doing 110. They are much heavier though so any faster than that could cause some problems.