Idea for alternative provision, if HS2 gets cancelled

[Chris 76]

A link from HS2 to the Birmingham-Derby line would be an alternative to a cancelled or deferred HS2 phase 2b. Upgrade Birmingham-Derby and create a fast route from that line to the ECML by upgrading the Castle Donington route to Nottingham and the Nottingham-Newark line with new junctions to the ECML. This would enable several improvements which HS2 won't achieve:
1. potential HS2 trains to existing city centre stations in Derby and Nottingham instead of Toton.
2. Nottingham's dire rail connections to the north would be transformed, as it would be on a new Birmingham-Nottingham-ECML axis. Cross-country services could be routed Doncaster-Nottingham-Birmingham in addition to the Sheffield route. HS2 doesn't currently plan for use by trains from the South West/South Wales to the NE/Scotland, a serious deficiency.
3. A fast Midlands Regional Express network could link the West and East Midlands, for example Shrewsbury-Birmingham-Nottingham-Lincoln, uniting the Midlands as a single economic region as NPR would do for the North.
By 'upgrade' I mean: electrification, line speeds at least 100mph and as much 125mph as possible, level crossing elimination, grade separated junctions, realignments, possibly new alignments where that's the optimum option (Tamworth for example), and sections of four tracking or extended loops at stations such as Burton on Trent to allow intercity trains to overtake regional and freight services.
This is the principle of Ausbaustrecke, upgraded rather than new build, which has been adopted across Europe where new lines are not justified, particularly on mixed use regional, intercity and freight routes.

 

[Bald Rick]

You’ll have to trust me here, HS2 will be cheaper and easier than all of that.

 

[Journeyman]

How long before someone suggests reviving the Great Central and/or Woodhead?

 

[Clip]

How long before someone suggests reviving the Great Central and/or Woodhead?

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/what-if-great-central-had-remained-open.173241/

 

[PeterC]

I am sure that when if phase 2b is cancelled it will just be cancelled with no previously unplanned "replacement" links built.

 

[DPWH]

How about reviving the Great Central and/or Woodhead?

 

[gordonthemoron]

good luck building a grade separated junction at Newark

 

[Bletchleyite]

In all seriousness?

If HS2 got dropped, I would do the following:-
- All Pendolinos to 11-car, and enough ordered to displace the Voyagers to allow for an hourly service to the North Wales Coast with all trains having 10 cars to Chester and 5 beyond (10 at some peak times). If it isn't possible to build new Pendolino cars now, instead split some up and re-equip to extend the 9s to 11s, keep a few spare end coaches and order some new 11x24m sets of something else (or indeed 10x26m 80x). Sufficient additional stock to allow a second Liverpool train per hour to be added and for all Euston-North West trains to go through to Scotland.
- All ECML Class 80x to 10 car
- Electrify the MML and run full length EMUs on it all day
- Spend any spare money on giving the North a proper electrified regional network with proper train lengths.

Re North Wales Coast, with enough Voyagers even better would be to always run 10 past Chester and have half go to Llandudno and half to Holyhead, splitting and joining at the Junction, thus bringing back a proper quality through service to where people want to go i.e. not Cardiff.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Is HS2 really In danger of getting cancelled?

Anyway, I always thought a spur from the Birmingham to Derby Line at Tamworth onto the West Coast Mainline could create a faster Birmingham to Manchester service.

 

[PR1Berske]

Is HS2 really In danger of getting cancelled?

I hope and pray every day that it does get cancelled.

To answer the OP, I'd put money into regional railways, including opening stations, the often forgotten element of investment. My priorities include cross Pennine routes and connecting places like Liverpool Airport to the network.

I would look into ways to introduce smart timetabling into WCML services to allow for creating connectivity without congestion.

There would be no high speed rail under my watch, that's for sure!

 

[The Planner]

You wont get a much better timetable on the WCML as you have now so Id love to know what "smart" timetabling consists of.

 

[Bald Rick]

There would be no high speed rail under my watch, that's for sure!

Under your watch, what do you regard as ‘high speed’, and why?

 

[jon0844]

I hope and pray every day that it does get cancelled.

To answer the OP, I'd put money into regional railways, including opening stations, the often forgotten element of investment. My priorities include cross Pennine routes and connecting places like Liverpool Airport to the network.

I would look into ways to introduce smart timetabling into WCML services to allow for creating connectivity without congestion.

There would be no high speed rail under my watch, that's for sure!

If you re-opened old stations and lines, you'd surely see a big increase in passenger numbers (if not, why do it?). Many of whom may want to travel further and so we would need something like HS2 for the capacity needed for this level of growth.

Would it not make sense to build HS2 and ALSO seek to re-open old stations and lines - all helping get more vehicles off the road?

Even if new cars drive themselves and run on clean energy, our roads are still congested.

PS. If you are praying every day then I think you need to find a new God! God clearly supports HS2!

 

[PR1Berske]

Under your watch, what do you regard as ‘high speed’, and why?

The existing times between Euston and Scotland are competitive with internal flights. I'd trim what is possible with technology and train lengthening. It's possible to get from Manchester to Euston on train in a couple of hours; we don't need any further high speed than that.

 

[NSEFAN]

The existing times between Euston and Scotland are competitive with internal flights. I'd trim what is possible with technology and train lengthening. It's possible to get from Manchester to Euston on train in a couple of hours; we don't need any further high speed than that.

Once your solution with longer trains and reduced headways reaches capacity, would building addiitonal lines then be acceptable to you?

 

[PR1Berske]

Once your solution with longer trains and reduced headways reaches capacity, would building addiitonal lines then be acceptable to you?

I'm very wary about putting money into building new lines. Justification for building on countryside and demolishing homes for a new railway into London is slim as it is.

Let's use what we've got.

 

[tbtc]

How long before someone suggests reviving the Great Central and/or Woodhead?

I hope and pray every day that it does get cancelled

I would look into ways to introduce smart timetabling into WCML services to allow for creating connectivity without congestion

I'd trim what is possible with technology

This sounds like something from the Brexit negotiations, where the politicians (the ones who failed with every major technology scheme they tried to implement - NHS databases, Universal Credit etc) think that some clever computer system will solve all of our Customs problems and border issues.

Seriously, you should go and work for Network Rail if you are able to solve all of these problems by just being "smart".

Despite all the threads/ debates, I've not seen any alternative to HS2 that is simpler/ cheaper/ faster to build - we are already running trains on our main lines that are at the maximum of what the infrastructure will allow, we have plenty of places where middle-distance passengers (from London) are losing out because the need to run 125mph trains non-stop for a hundred miles means we can't provide sufficient resources to places like Milton Keynes - eventually something's got to give

I'm very wary about putting money into building new lines. Justification for building on countryside and demolishing homes for a new railway into London is slim as it is.

So you'd re-open old lines, just as long as it doesn't mean building them through countryside or demolishing any homes?

(presumably that means not re-opening any lines where there's a cycle/walking path as that'd spoil the countryside?)

 

[PR1Berske]

So you'd re-open old lines, just as long as it doesn't mean building them through countryside or demolishing any homes?

Well just think about closed lines where communities have grown up without a station nearby. It's not just about building lines but connecting people to the network.

One of the biggest failings of HS2 is building a line without stations along the route. Why should people lose their countryside without benefiting?

I would much happier look at relaying track where it's possible to do so, add stations, and watch the benefits from focusing on regional investment.

 

[Bald Rick]

I'm very wary about putting money into building new lines. Justification for building on countryside and demolishing homes for a new railway into London is slim as it is.

Let's use what we've got.

To put it into context, reopening almost any closed line is, in the eyes of the law, the same as building a new one. And will require building on countryside, or demolishing homes, or both.

 

[NSEFAN]

I'm very wary about putting money into building new lines. Justification for building on countryside and demolishing homes for a new railway into London is slim as it is.

Let's use what we've got.

So you believe that there is enough demand to lengthen trains and upgrade signalling, but not enough to build a new railway? Are you expecting demand to plateau or even decline over time? I find these quite hard to believe, unless the population of the country decreases for some reason.

Well just think about closed lines where communities have grown up without a station nearby. It's not just about building lines but connecting people to the network.

One of the biggest failings of HS2 is building a line without stations along the route. Why should people lose their countryside without benefiting?

I would much happier look at relaying track where it's possible to do so, add stations, and watch the benefits from focusing on regional investment.

It's a bit strange that you want to avoid demolishing countryside, yet want to open/reopen lines and stations at towns in more rural areas to connect them to the network. Doing so will fuel demand for new houses near these stations, causing more countryside to be bulldozed for new domitory towns. A housing estate will do more damage to a local area than a railway line in a cutting. It would be far better to concentrate development in larger towns and provide better railway links between them, either with a dedicated route like HS2 or with heavily upgraded routes.

In the context of the OP's suggestion, many regional trains in the Midlands and the North often see 2-4 carriage DMU formations every hour. There's plenty of scope for improvement, both in frequency and train length; going up to 12 carriage trains every 15 minutes would give at least 10x the capacity in that example. By comparison, the WCML into London already uses maximum length trains at short intervals (roughly 250m is about as long as the commuter trains can get before they start to pose capacity problems, the practical constraints in the recent project to go from 8 to 10 carriage suburban trains at Waterloo has actually reduced the number of trains per hour which can arrive and depart). Better signalling can help to an extent, as can better junction design, but nowhere near as much as another set of lines. Sometimes it makes sense to upgrade, sometimes it makes sense to build a new line.

 

[Clip]

I hope and pray every day that it does get cancelled.

To answer the OP, I'd put money into regional railways, including opening stations, the often forgotten element of investment. My priorities include cross Pennine routes and connecting places like Liverpool Airport to the network.

I would look into ways to introduce smart timetabling into WCML services to allow for creating connectivity without congestion.

There would be no high speed rail under my watch, that's for sure!

Ah yes we know - theres a whole forum subjected to HS2 and your objections are well received there and all debunked in spectacular fashion so much so that you have decreed never to ride it.

Ive no objection to Liverpool airport being connected to the rail network - how much does its operator want to contribute for this?

Cross pennine improvements are a must for sure but that shouldnt stop something else being built - we really can do more than 2 things at once