Idea to drive an electric car onto a tran and get it fully charged off the OHLE while on the move?

[rower40]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/best-and-worst-major-interchange-stations.220222/

Wouldn't it be great if you could drive on to a train, plug your EV in, and get it fully charged off the OHLE while on the move? Only issue being whether the OHLE could supply enough charging juice. I expect the grid managers would have a fit when approached for that amount of load on a single phase. And the risk of the pantograph welding itself to the catenary when the train is stationary.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Off-topic; wouldn't it be great if you could drive on to a train, plug your EV in, and get it fully charged off the OHLE while on the move? Only issue being whether the OHLE could supply enough charging juice. I expect the grid managers would have a fit when approached for that amount of load on a single phase. And the risk of the pantograph welding itself to the catenary when the train is stationary.

It's pointless lugging cars around when you can hire one at your destination.

 

[The exile]

It's pointless lugging cars around when you can hire one at your destination.

Quite a few people I knew who used the DB Autozuege for leisure journeys were using them in one direction only, prior to a leisurely holiday driving back visiting places en route.

 

[Meerkat]

It's pointless lugging cars around when you can hire one at your destination.

How do you lug the car full of stuff around?

 

[43096]

Off-topic; wouldn't it be great if you could drive on to a train, plug your EV in, and get it fully charged off the OHLE while on the move? Only issue being whether the OHLE could supply enough charging juice. I expect the grid managers would have a fit when approached for that amount of load on a single phase. And the risk of the pantograph welding itself to the catenary when the train is stationary.

Given that a Class 92 can pull down 5MW from the overheads (and another 0.9MW for train supply), I don't think charging a few cars would be that much of an issue.

 

[Bald Rick]

I’ve thought about this too.

Whilst a good idea in principle, the power demand is not practical for anything but long journeys at low charge rates. Assuming the EVs were charging at 7kW, and there’s, say, 20 cars charging simultaneously, that could probably be dealt with, and cars would ‘fill up’ on a 10 hour trip.

But on a short hop like Eurotunnel, you’d want much higher charge rates for the 45 minutes you are on board, and many more cars (120). It’s conceivable that you’d be looking at 6MW. That’s about the same as their locos, which are both at full power on entrance to, and the pull out of, the tunnel.

but as has been said - the days of motorail in this country have long since gone. It’s far cheaper and quicker to simply hire a car the other end.

 

[AM9]

I’ve thought about this too.

Whilst a good idea in principle, the power demand is not practical for anything but long journeys at low charge rates. Assuming the EVs were charging at 7kW, and there’s, say, 20 cars charging simultaneously, that could probably be dealt with, and cars would ‘fill up’ on a 10 hour trip.

But on a short hop like Eurotunnel, you’d want much higher charge rates for the 45 minutes you are on board, and many more cars (120). It’s conceivable that you’d be looking at 6MW. That’s about the same as their locos, which are both at full power on entrance to, and the pull out of, the tunnel.

but as has been said - the days of motorail in this country have long since gone. It’s far cheaper and quicker to simply hire a car the other end.

Far easier to provide a suitable number of charging stations at either Euroshutle terminal. Surely, in the context of a journey long enough to make taking a car through the tunnel worthwhile, a 30 minute pause for a rapid charge isn't too much for any driver to be inconvenienced by.

 

[Bald Rick]

Far easier to provide a suitable number of charging stations at either Euroshutle terminal. Surely, in the context of a journey long enough to make taking a car through the tunnel worthwhile, a 30 minute pause for a rapid charge isn't too much for any driver to be inconvenienced by.

Oh I completely agree. The concept of running 6MW of additional hotel power through a half mile long train (on top of what it already needs) is fanciful.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How do you lug the car full of stuff around?

The same way you do when flying - in suitcases. Four suitcases take up most of the boot of an average family car.

OK, doesn't work for camping. But are campers likely to pay the high fares for a car sleeper train given that it is the most budget form of holiday?

 

[rower40]

But with a motorail-train-full of EVs on board, an intelligent loco could make use of the battery capacity when starting off. The car batteries could then supplement the on-board power as needed, and still get fully charged by the end of the journey.
{I've not yet used the return portion of my ticket to cloud-cuckoo-land. I'll be back one day when the travel restrictions are lifted...}

 

[PeterC]

The same way you do when flying - in suitcases. Four suitcases take up most of the boot of an average family car.

OK, doesn't work for camping. But are campers likely to pay the high fares for a car sleeper train given that it is the most budget form of holiday?

But can you rely on the hire company supplying a suitable baby seat and booster seat for the children?

I love the idea but, sadly, the necessary fare would be prohibitive

 

[BayPaul]

Why not just drive the electric car to the destination if you need to carry lots of heavy kit. I would imagine that it would be more efficient than the train anyway, given that not only does the train need to pull the car, it will also need to pull the truck to carry it, and the carriage to carry the occupants, all at <100% load factor, and you will need to do additional mileage to get to and from the station at either end. I really can't see any benefit

 

[skyhigh]

But with a motorail-train-full of EVs on board, an intelligent loco could make use of the battery capacity when starting off. The car batteries could then supplement the on-board power as needed, and still get fully charged by the end of the journey.
{I've not yet used the return portion of my ticket to cloud-cuckoo-land. I'll be back one day when the travel restrictions are lifted...}

This is getting pretty far fetched- most EVs don't support vehicle-to-grid at the moment and it would have to be a pretty complex system to demand power off multiple cars of different makes simultaneously. To make this work you'd need to change pretty much the entire range of EVs on sale, and those already on the road...

 

[mike57]

The increasing use of pure EV's is going to make long journeys such as driving down to the south of France from the UK or a trip to the north coast of Scotland from London different, with more breaks in the journey to allow charging.

Whilst Motorrail services sound like the answer, with or with out charging during the journey, there would be a number of problems. Getting enough cars onto a train to make the economics work out is difficult. Special rolling stock would have to purchased and it would need to be capable of running at say 125mph if it was going to use existing 125 capable lines in order to fit round everything else. Paths in an increasingly congested rail system would still have to be found. Also start and finish points would need to be close to major motorway junctions, its no good tipping everyone out in the centre of London say. I really cannot see how the current railway network could support it. Also routes would have to be electrified if the charging option was included. I wont say NEVER as never is a long time, but cant foresee it happening even in the long term.

I actually think the developments in self driving technology could be the way forwards, with cars connecting to a 'trolley pole' when they join the motorway and driving at a set speed determined by a central control system talking to each vehicle and picking up their power rather than using internal batteries for that leg of the journey, but that is way off topic.

 

[Meerkat]

The same way you do when flying - in suitcases. Four suitcases take up most of the boot of an average family car.

OK, doesn't work for camping. But are campers likely to pay the high fares for a car sleeper train given that it is the most budget form of holiday?

I don’t think I could carry the amount of stuff I throw in the car when I go away!
Part of my preference for driving is that I can just chuck in stuff for all sorts of eventualities. And when we went on family holidays we had beach stuff and chairs and all sorts that isn’t going in any suitcase(and bikes!).
Plus I want to drive my car, that’s why I bought it!

 

[PeterC]

I don’t think I could carry the amount of stuff I throw in the car when I go away!
Part of my preference for driving is that I can just chuck in stuff for all sorts of eventualities. And when we went on family holidays we had beach stuff and chairs and all sorts that isn’t going in any suitcase(and bikes!).
Plus I want to drive my car, that’s why I bought it!

Sounds like me on holiday too.

 

[AM9]

I don’t think I could carry the amount of stuff I throw in the car when I go away!
Part of my preference for driving is that I can just chuck in stuff for all sorts of eventualities. And when we went on family holidays we had beach stuff and chairs and all sorts that isn’t going in any suitcase(and bikes!).
Plus I want to drive my car, that’s why I bought it!

In a few years you will still be able to do that, but not whilst burning hydrocarbons and churning out CO2. If you can't avoid doing that, (even at great cost), you will join rhe others who will have changed their holiday luggage regime.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But can you rely on the hire company supplying a suitable baby seat and booster seat for the children?

That's what most people who fly and hire a car do, or they take their own with them as luggage. This Forum really does like finding non-issues, doesn't it?

Plus I want to drive my car, that’s why I bought it!

Then drive it all the way to your destination!

Motorail really belongs in the days of cars being too unreliable and uncomfortable for driving a few hundred miles. Those days have long gone (most cars, even the cheapest ones, are vastly more comfortable than most trains in Standard), and even EVs with 200ish mile ranges are not an issue because if you're driving 200 miles you really should be planning an hour or so's break (or set of breaks split up) in there somewhere.

 

[PeterC]

That's what most people who fly and hire a car do, or they take their own with them as luggage. This Forum really does like finding non-issues, doesn't it?

Such a non issue that Which claimed that 85% of hirers requiring child seats had experienced problems.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Such a non issue that Which claimed that 85% of hirers requiring child seats had experienced problems.

Then take your own as luggage (conveniently trains, unlike aircraft, don't have strict luggage restrictions, and even the ones they do have aren't ever enforced unless you take something really stupid like a piece of furniture).

The solution to a minor problem like that is not a costly, heavily subsidised Motorail operation. In 2021, Motorail is not an answer to anything.

 

[EssexGonzo]

OK, doesn't work for camping. But are campers likely to pay the high fares for a car sleeper train given that it is the most budget form of holiday?

Once upon a time that was true. But camping is not necessarily budget any more - some of the £50k+ cars adorning campsites shows that to be the case.

That's what most people who fly and hire a car do, or they take their own with them as luggage. This Forum really does like finding non-issues, doesn't it?



Then drive it all the way to your destination!

Motorail really belongs in the days of cars being too unreliable and uncomfortable for driving a few hundred miles. Those days have long gone (most cars, even the cheapest ones, are vastly more comfortable than most trains in Standard), and even EVs with 200ish mile ranges are not an issue because if you're driving 200 miles you really should be planning an hour or so's break (or set of breaks split up) in there somewhere.

I suspect that the proposition of a “charging Motorail train” is very much “of the moment” - with the non-Tesla infrastructure being poor for now. In 5 years it won’t be, so driving across a continent will be possible without any sort of “charging anxiety”. And the business case for such a train will disappear in a relatively short period of time (if there ever was one).

And as for kids and luggage for a two week holiday on a train - absolute nightmare. Especially as you’d normally need 2+ trains to get to your long distance journey normally with nowhere near enough luggage space for you, let alone others. We’ve tried it. Chuck it all in the car and leave it there until you arrive.

Then take your own as luggage (conveniently trains, unlike aircraft, don't have strict luggage restrictions, and even the ones they do have aren't ever enforced unless you take something really stupid like a piece of furniture).

 

[AM9]

... I suspect that the proposition of a “charging Motorail train” is very much “of the moment” - with the non-Tesla infrastructure being poor for now. In 5 years it won’t be, so driving across a continent will be possible without any sort of “charging anxiety”. And the business case for such a train will disappear in a relatively short period of time (if there ever was one).

And as for kids and luggage for a two week holiday on a train - absolute nightmare. Especially as you’d normally need 2+ trains to get to your long distance journey normally with nowhere near enough luggage space for you, let alone others. We’ve tried it. Chuck it all in the car and leave it there until you arrive.

You can do that at the moment and maybe when EVs are the only affordable choice too.

 

[PeterC]

You can do that at the moment and maybe when EVs are the only affordable choice too.

What people miss in this argument is that range anxiety is a matter of perception rather than of fact. This isn't helped by the fact that charging points are rather modest looking affairs that still need a special website to track down while petrol stations have huge signs allowing you to identify them and stop while actually driving.

 

[Bald Rick]

This isn't helped by the fact that charging points are rather modest looking affairs that still need a special website to track down

They don’t. Your EV tells you where they are, if they are available, and will route you to them if you wish.

 

[TheSeeker]

Far easier to provide a suitable number of charging stations at either Euroshutle terminal.

They have these already. Tesla stations in the car park as I remember from my last trip.

 

[Bald Rick]

They have these already. Tesla stations in the car park as I remember from my last trip.

Yes several Tesla superchargers and Chargemaster points as well.

 

[PeterC]

They don’t. Your EV tells you where they are, if they are available, and will route you to them if you wish.

A mandatory feature on ALL electric vehicles? Again perception, publicity is all about websites and phone apps.

If web searches about charging keep coming up with proprietory apps why would I expect it to be a standard function of every single EV that will ever be on the market.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A mandatory feature on ALL electric vehicles? Again perception, publicity is all about websites and phone apps.

If web searches about charging keep coming up with proprietory apps why would I expect it to be a standard function of every single EV that will ever be on the market.

You wouldn't care, because the number of EV drivers who do not have a smartphone is somewhere around 0. A phone is easier to use than a car touchscreen, and you shouldn't be fiddling with either while driving.

Installing more than one app is hardly hard. Apps update themselves*, to whoever said about updating. And EVs often have their own app with which you can do useful stuff like turn the aircon or heat on before going to the car.

In the end, EVs will not need to even think about Luddites for many years yet, as Luddites will wish to continue with ICE cars. Many of the remaining Luddites will no longer be driving by the time EVs are the only thing on the road.

* If your answer to this is "I prefer to control them manually", then see Luddism (or techie, and techies like playing with stuff and won't care).

 

[Bald Rick]

A mandatory feature on ALL electric vehicles?

Not mandatory, but it’s certainly provided in all the EVs I’ve been in (Tesla, VW, Audi, i-Pace, Leaf) and I’d expect common sense from other manufacturers means they do the same. It’s hardly difficult or new technology. My 15 year old petrol car shows me where the nearest petrol station is and will guide me to it if I ask it to.

The publicity you see about apps etc is, of course, from people who take a cut from persuading you to use their charging station (or those they advertise).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not mandatory, but it’s certainly provided in all the EVs I’ve been in (Tesla, VW, Audi, i-Pace, Leaf) and I’d expect common sense from other manufacturers means they do the same. It’s hardly difficult or new technology. My 15 year old petrol car shows me where the nearest petrol station is and will guide me to it if I ask it to.

The publicity you see about apps etc is, of course, from people who take a cut from persuading you to use their charging station (or those they advertise).

I'd be surprised if the likes of Waze and Google Nav didn't incorporate this feature in pretty short order, too.