Ideas for a brand for a single English railway system?

[Bletchleyite]

England has no firmly defined urban areas that have self contained services, beyond a tiny handful of examples.

It's pretty difficult to meaningfully break the system up into Regional S-Bahns when the distances are so small.

No, but you could certainly have things like "Regional Railways North West" - like we actually did just before privatisation!

 

[Bevan Price]

One exception in my eyes - Ray Stenning could make an amazing job of the whole marketing of the railway as he has for a number of bus companies.

Well - that is a matter of personal opinion as to whether or not people like some of the bus company liveries......Any livery with too much white, or light pastel shades just looks a bit grubby after a few hours on rainy, mud-splashed roads.

 

[Belperpete]

No, but you could certainly have things like "Regional Railways North West" - like we actually did just before privatisation!

Ah, so people would know which services to avoid?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ah, so people would know which services to avoid?

No, just to give a bit of a feeling of local ownership, which is a powerful marketing tool. Again referring to Stenning and Transdev, who seem to be kings of this sort of thing, they have "The Keighley Bus Company", "The Harrogate Bus Company" etc rather than just "Transdev", because they know that's important. Trent Barton don't call themselves "Wellglade Buses" either.

 

[tbwbear]

But I think you may inadvertently hit on the one reason why a different brand may be necessary. There are currently many fares that are TOC specific, purely for the purposes of maximising revenue for the TOC concerned. I would hope such fares would disappear under a concession model (but am not holding my breath). However, it makes sense to offer discounted fares on some services, to attract custom to them, for example the West Midlands stopping services between Birmingham/Crewe and London. Currently these can be advertised as not available on the fast services by saying they are not valid on Avanti, but if trains cease to be branded as Avanti how are passengers going to know which service their ticket is and isn't valid on?

I think there will be a major simplification of fares.

I think that will be one of the "advantages" you will get from taking the responsibility for revenue away from the TOCs.

If all the money is going into the same pot, I am not sure you neccessarily need to incentivise people to use stopping services for longer distance (eg. Crewe to London) travel.

Of course, to some extent the Avanti/ West Midlands thing predates privatisation. In the early 90s, tickets bought with my "Network" Railcard weren't allowed to be used on Intercity trains, now exactly the same thing applies to Avanti.

In the same way I can still get a third off to Exeter today, but I have to go via Salisbury.

Or, my personal favourite, the difference in discount that still exists between travelling on GWR to Bedwyn (exNSE) or, one stop further down the line, Pewsey (exIC).

 

[ABB125]

I would have something like this:

• Overall brand, eg: Rail England, UKrail, GBrail or similar
• Regional sub-brand: Northern, Midland, Western, Southern. So combined, it would be something like UKrail Midland
• Wales and Scotland are independent of the system
• Livery would be similar across all the brands: the same overall design, but different colours for different regions, for example Northern could be blue and green, Midland could be yellow and red etc*
• "Intercity" stuff would have its own sub-brand, could be InterCity or Express or CrossCountry or Long Distance

In terms of which operators go where:

• Northern: Northern, some Transpennine
• Midland: West Midlands, East Midlands regional, longer-distance LNR (the Crewe and Liverpool trains), CrossCountry "regional" services
• Western: GWR local, possibly SWR Exeter line services
• Southern: SWR, Southern, Southeastern, Thameslink, East Anglia, WCML commuter trains, probably Chiltern and GWR Thames valley stuff
• Intercity: GWR and EMR long distance, ECML and WCML long distance, CrossCountry long distance, some Transpennine (probably the WCML services)

The major downside I can think of is the potential splitting up of currently integrated operations, which may not be a good idea. It also loses strong current brands like GWR and LNER.

 

[HSTEd]

Rather than force everything into pidgeon holes, a better approach, if you want regional differentiation is to only have regional differentiation in areas that have strong ideas of regional identity.

So we have a strong "GBRail" brand, which notionally covers all services except those areas which have a strong alternative branding.
So for example a "YorkshireRail" brand, which would be based on the GBRail brand but with 'Yorkshire' accents in form of coloured highlights etc.

This would allow a non strongly branded unit to deputise for a local branded one without being too jarring, but also allow most services in local brand areas to be local branded without trying to force local brands to cover the entire network.

 

[John Hunt]

(somewhere amongst all this re-brand there should be a provision for return of the 'Merrymaker' to bring the public back to the railway. Something sorely missed from the BR days....)

 

[BayPaul]

Rather than force everything into pidgeon holes, a better approach, if you want regional differentiation is to only have regional differentiation in areas that have strong ideas of regional identity.

So we have a strong "GBRail" brand, which notionally covers all services except those areas which have a strong alternative branding.
So for example a "YorkshireRail" brand, which would be based on the GBRail brand but with 'Yorkshire' accents in form of coloured highlights etc.

This would allow a non strongly branded unit to deputise for a local branded one without being too jarring, but also allow most services in local brand areas to be local branded without trying to force local brands to cover the entire network.

This I agree with. Most of the current regions, and for that matter thinks like Network SouthEast are fairly artificial, and are not based on places that people are proud to belong to, so contribute little to marketing.

As the double arrow is well known, I would stick with a (perhaps modernised) version of this, with a strong main brand (National Rail is the best suggestion I've seen so far) for all services, other than Wales and Scotland, which do have sensible reasons for their own regional identities. I think a separate National Rail Intercity sub-brand would make sense, as the marketing for these services would be very different than for commuter services, but I would use this for all long distance services, including TPE, Cardiff-Portsmouth, Stansted Express etc that weren't part of the Intercity sector, as well as long distance services in Scotland and Wales. I wouldn't try to restrict these services to just long distance passengers, this would just be a marketing brand aimed at long-distance journeys, so there would be no problem with Intercity branded trains running the stopping services at the ends of their journeys. This could also allow price differentiation on certain routes, such as Gatwick Express and HS1, where tickets could be routed "Not Intercity" at a lower price, but in general Intercity would not be more expensive.

The other local brands would be both for things like National Rail - MerseyRail - based on the same scheme, but with a yellow colour pallette for example, similar to the Stagecoach bus liveries worked before the latest 'improvements', but also for things as small as local branch lines with a tourist focus - National Rail to St Ives - perhaps using pictorial wraps like Wessex trains used to do.

That leaves London. TFL is such a strong brand, and the advantages of integrating with it are huge, so you could put all of the Overground trains, as well as the SW, Southern and SE metros into a white blue and orange livery, it would emphasise that they are part of the london integrated transport network, but you wouldn't want to exclude them from the main national brand, so I would create the main livery such that the two can integrate nicely

 

[Belperpete]

I would have something like this:

• Overall brand, eg: Rail England, UKrail, GBrail or similar
• Regional sub-brand: Northern, Midland, Western, Southern. So combined, it would be something like UKrail Midland
• Wales and Scotland are independent of the system
• Livery would be similar across all the brands: the same overall design, but different colours for different regions, for example Northern could be blue and green, Midland could be yellow and red etc*
• "Intercity" stuff would have its own sub-brand, could be InterCity or Express or CrossCountry or Long Distance

In terms of which operators go where:

• Northern: Northern, some Transpennine
• Midland: West Midlands, East Midlands regional, longer-distance LNR (the Crewe and Liverpool trains), CrossCountry "regional" services
• Western: GWR local, possibly SWR Exeter line services
• Southern: SWR, Southern, Southeastern, Thameslink, East Anglia, WCML commuter trains, probably Chiltern and GWR Thames valley stuff
• Intercity: GWR and EMR long distance, ECML and WCML long distance, CrossCountry long distance, some Transpennine (probably the WCML services)

The major downside I can think of is the potential splitting up of currently integrated operations, which may not be a good idea. It also loses strong current brands like GWR and LNER.

OMG! And how exactly does the poor passenger benefit from all this unnecessary complication?

 

[lachlan]

OMG! And how exactly does the poor passenger benefit from all this unnecessary complication?

Indeed, I thought the aim on this thread was to simplify how the railways appear to the public.

Personally, I would bring back the British Railways brand to create a consistent look across the country.

 

[tbwbear]

As the double arrow is well known, I would stick with a (perhaps modernised) version of this, with a strong main brand (National Rail is the best suggestion I've seen so far) for all services, other than Wales and Scotland, which do have sensible reasons for their own regional identities.

Correct me if I am wrong, but the double arrow logo is used in Scotland and Wales in addition to the Scotrail , TfW branding isn't it ? I mean at the stations, on road signs etc... I assume there are no plans to change it are there ?

"National Rail" could actually mean any of the 3 nations - so in that sense, it is not bad either. And of course all London Underground stations refer to it already on signage in place of the old British Rail

 

[Belperpete]

Personally, I would bring back the British Railways brand to create a consistent look across the country.

I doubt that bringing back either "British Rail" or "British Railways" would be politically acceptable to the Tory party (too much like admitting that they were wrong to have got rid of it). Not to mention the somewhat toxic legacy of the brand in the public eye.

 

[BayPaul]

Correct me if I am wrong, but the double arrow logo is used in Scotland and Wales in addition to the Scotrail , TfW branding isn't it ? I mean at the stations, on road signs etc... I assume there are no plans to change it are there ?

"National Rail" could actually mean any of the 3 nations - so in that sense, it is not bad either. And of course all London Underground stations refer to it already on signage in place of the old British Rail

Sorry I wasn't clear - I would use the double arrow logo on everything, along with matching fonts, colour families etc, just in Wales and Scotland, the National Rail wording would be replaced with Scotrail or TfW, as I suspect that politically changing them to National Rail wouldn't be possible, accurate as it might be.

 

[John Hunt]

I doubt that bringing back either "British Rail" or "British Railways" would be politically acceptable to the Tory party (too much like admitting that they were wrong to have got rid of it). Not to mention the somewhat toxic legacy of the brand in the public eye.

Stuff the Tory party! It should be the peoples railway!
And a well-thought out campaign could possibly repair the toxic legacy.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Stuff the Tory party! It should be the peoples railway!
And a well-thought out campaign could possibly repair the toxic legacy.

"People's" probably has a bit of a left wing view to it so no chance.

But how about National Rail with the circle with BR symbol, then a subscript of "Your Railway"? A bit of an ape of ScotRail but that seems to work.

 

[tbwbear]

Sorry I wasn't clear - I would use the double arrow logo on everything, along with matching fonts, colour families etc, just in Wales and Scotland, the National Rail wording would be replaced with Scotrail or TfW, as I suspect that politically changing them to National Rail wouldn't be possible, accurate as it might be.

"National Rail" is also already written on tickets as well -isn't it ?- so it does make quite a bit of sense to keep it.

IMHO - The double arrow logo is one of the simplest and most effective transportation logos in the world and it certainly should be kept !!

 

[py_megapixel]

I think my idea would be something along the lines of 4 sub brands

• Metro - short range stopping services intended to serve commuters and local travellers, particularly into major towns and cities - e.g short distance London commuter routes. In some areas these might be run by PTEs.
  
  
• Regional - longer distance services, and those intended to serve wide rural areas, but which aren't really express - for example, Settle to Carlisle, the West Highland and Far North lines, or the Hope Valley stoppers
  
  
• Regional express- similar in length to regional or longer, fewer stops and more comfort-focussed - for example, Weston to Cardiff (and for that matter quite a lot more of GWR and most of XC)
  
  
• InterCity - the premium "big train" experience - Avanti, LNER, ScotRail's HSTs, some EMR, and high speed railways among others would fall into this category

This is a little bit like the German system (where their categories are S, RB, RE, IRE, EC, IC, ICE)
For consistency I would suggest that they should use the same livery in different colour schemes, to differentiate them.

As for what the wider organisation should be called - RailUK seems to fit the bill nicely (and not just because it's the name of this website!) but I'm sure other can come up with better ideas.

This also makes the discount tickets for taking slower trains easy. You just sell tickets which are "not valid on InterCity" to encourage use of regional express services or "Only valid on Metro" to stop commuters filling up long distance trains for example.

 

[py_megapixel]

"National Rail" is also already written on tickets as well -isn't it ?- so it does make quite a bit of sense to keep it.

IMHO - The double arrow logo is one of the simplest and most effective transportation logos in the world and it certainly should be kept !!

The only problem I have with National Rail is that it's generic. People refer to SNCF as the French national rail operator for example and that might cause confusion.
I do think it needs to be something more specific,

However, I completely agree with you about the double arrow. It's timeless, beautiful and... apart from any of that... if they tried to get rid of it then imagine the reaction of this forum...

 

[John Hunt]

The only problem I have with National Rail is that it's generic. People refer to SNCF as the French national rail operator for example and that might cause confusion.
I do think it needs to be something more specific,

However, I completely agree with you about the double arrow. It's timeless, beautiful and... apart from any of that... if they tried to get rid of it then imagine the reaction of this forum...

The double arrow should definitely stay. How does Britannia Rail sound (Britannia best known as a national personification of the United Kingdom).

 

[py_megapixel]

The double arrow should definitely stay. How does Britannia Rail sound (Britannia best known as a national personification of the United Kingdom).

It's alright in theory, it just sounds a bit... corporate, if you see what I mean.

If you want a cheap pun for the media to parody to death, how about "Rail Britannia" (as in, Britannia rails the waves...)

 

[John Hunt]

Oops!
I was trying to think of something which would evoke national pride etc.

 

[Energy]

I think my idea would be something along the lines of 4 sub brands

• Metro - short range stopping services intended to serve commuters and local travellers, particularly into major towns and cities - e.g short distance London commuter routes. In some areas these might be run by PTEs.
  
  
• Regional - longer distance services, and those intended to serve wide rural areas, but which aren't really express - for example, Settle to Carlisle, the West Highland and Far North lines, or the Hope Valley stoppers
  
  
• Regional express- similar in length to regional or longer, fewer stops and more comfort-focussed - for example, Weston to Cardiff (and for that matter quite a lot more of GWR and most of XC)
  
  
• InterCity - the premium "big train" experience - Avanti, LNER, ScotRail's HSTs, some EMR, and high speed railways among others would fall into this category

I like that system, I would combine regional and regional express though to just be one brand.

 

[Dr Hoo]

"People's" probably has a bit of a left wing view to it so no chance.

But how about National Rail with the circle with BR symbol, then a subscript of "Your Railway"? A bit of an ape of ScotRail but that seems to work.

I am intrigued as to why you think that "ScotRail... seems to work".

Notwithstanding a great deal of investment it saddens me (as a former BR ScotRail staffer) that:

Performance has been below target over extended periods and worse over the past decade for which figures are available
(90.6% PPM for 2008/9, 87.4% PPM for 2018/9);
Growth in journeys has lagged behind the GB trend (up only 16.4% 2008/9-2018/9 compared to 38.8% overall);
Growth in passenger km has lagged behind the GB trend (up 14.5% compared to 33.8% overall); and
Passenger train km for ScotRail have increased by 21.4% so the 'average' Scottish train is less well loaded than it was a decade ago.

Not exactly a ringing endorsement of the branding strategy.

 

[py_megapixel]

I like that system, I would combine regional and regional express though to just be one brand.

Could you elaborate a little?

The reason I split it up was that I thought the regional category would be too large. You see, it encompasses everything from the Hope Valley Line stoppers between Manchester and Sheffield, to the Weston-super-Mare to Cardiff HSTs, and probably most of CrossCountry's operations.

I think combining them would probably involve pushing the bottom of regional into Metro, and the top of regional express into InterCity, so that the categories are a reasonable size.

 

[mmh]

Could you elaborate a little?

The reason I split it up was that I thought the regional category would be too large. You see, it encompasses everything from the Hope Valley Line stoppers between Manchester and Sheffield, to the Weston-super-Mare to Cardiff HSTs, and probably most of CrossCountry's operations.

I think combining them would probably involve pushing the bottom of regional into Metro, and the top of regional express into InterCity, so that the categories are a reasonable size.

If it's only branding, what does it matter what size they are?

 

[py_megapixel]

If it's only branding, what does it matter what size they are?

I'm not sure what you mean. I was proposing separate brands for metro, regional, regional express and intercity.

 

[MarkyT]

I am intrigued as to why you think that "ScotRail... seems to work".

Notwithstanding a great deal of investment it saddens me (as a former BR ScotRail staffer) that:

Performance has been below target over extended periods and worse over the past decade for which figures are available
(90.6% PPM for 2008/9, 87.4% PPM for 2018/9);
Growth in journeys has lagged behind the GB trend (up only 16.4% 2008/9-2018/9 compared to 38.8% overall);
Growth in passenger km has lagged behind the GB trend (up 14.5% compared to 33.8% overall); and
Passenger train km for ScotRail have increased by 21.4% so the 'average' Scottish train is less well loaded than it was a decade ago.

Not exactly a ringing endorsement of the branding strategy.

Impossible to say whether branding has had anything to do with it surely. Quality, level and price of service will probably have had more bearing, and did Scotland start from a higher usage base than GB generally in the first place?

 

[tarq]

I really like the idea of retaining National Rail as the overarching brand with the double arrow and then categorised as suggested by py_megapixel

• Metro - short range stopping services intended to serve commuters and local travellers, particularly into major towns and cities - e.g short distance London commuter routes. In some areas these might be run by PTEs.
  
  
• Regional - longer distance services, and those intended to serve wide rural areas, but which aren't really express - for example, Settle to Carlisle, the West Highland and Far North lines, or the Hope Valley stoppers
  
  
• Regional express- similar in length to regional or longer, fewer stops and more comfort-focussed - for example, Weston to Cardiff (and for that matter quite a lot more of GWR and most of XC)
  
  
• InterCity - the premium "big train" experience - Avanti, LNER, ScotRail's HSTs, some EMR, and high speed railways among others would fall into this category

 

[Energy]

Could you elaborate a little?

The reason I split it up was that I thought the regional category would be too large. You see, it encompasses everything from the Hope Valley Line stoppers between Manchester and Sheffield, to the Weston-super-Mare to Cardiff HSTs, and probably most of CrossCountry's operations.

I think combining them would probably involve pushing the bottom of regional into Metro, and the top of regional express into InterCity, so that the categories are a reasonable size.

Agreed with the last point but some of XC 170 routes would be regional but the rest of XC is intercity and although it uses short HSTs Weston to Cardiff is a relatively short journey of 1.5 hours putting it comfortable in the regional brand in my opinion.