Ideas for improving the CrossCountry timetable

[A S Leib]

The four InterCity routes would be:

Newcastle to Reading (via Doncaster)
York to Bristol Temple Meads (via Leeds)
Manchester to Plymouth
Manchester to Bournemouth

So Newcastle to Leeds goes down from 3 tph pre-pandemic (Liverpool, Manchester Airport, Plymouth) to just the Liverpool services?

I know compromises have to be made – ideally, I'd do all phases of HS2, plus a new Birmingham–Bristol–Cardiff line – but between existing cuts and Edinburgh to Leeds and Sheffield being ~68,000 passengers per year, that seems like a bad deal for the North East.

 

[Tayway]

So Newcastle to Leeds goes down from 3 tph pre-pandemic (Liverpool, Manchester Airport, Plymouth) to just the Liverpool services?

I know compromises have to be made – ideally, I'd do all phases of HS2, plus a new Birmingham–Bristol–Cardiff line – but between existing cuts and Edinburgh to Leeds and Sheffield being ~68,000 passengers per year, that seems like a bad deal for the North East.

My proposed Edinburgh to Nottingham service would make 2tph from Newcastle to Leeds when combined with the TPE.

 

[A S Leib]

My proposed Edinburgh to Nottingham service would make 2tph from Newcastle to Leeds when combined with the TPE.

Ah. Losing direct services to Cheltenham and beyond would still be slightly annoying, but as long as Birmingham isn't cut and with 2 tph for Leeds that's more understandable (and Newcastle to Nottingham's far less time-competitive via London than Newcastle to Bristol / Devon).

 

[cle]

For History I'd recommend http://www.1s76.com/.

However, back on topic, reintroducing services to Kent and Sussex would be a clear detriment to XC's ability to offer reliable trains of an appropriate length as they'd have stock tied up between stopping trains on intensely worked routes.

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[FGWHST43009]

So Newcastle to Leeds goes down from 3 tph pre-pandemic (Liverpool, Manchester Airport, Plymouth) to just the Liverpool services?

I know compromises have to be made – ideally, I'd do all phases of HS2, plus a new Birmingham–Bristol–Cardiff line – but between existing cuts and Edinburgh to Leeds and Sheffield being ~68,000 passengers per year, that seems like a bad deal for the North East.

Here's another thought, Bristol-Newcastle could be just over 4 hours if it went via Doncaster, which is the ideal journey time for long distance.
Maybe a stop at Meadowhall or the new Rotherham station would provide connections to Leeds? Also, if the Reading service terminates at York maybe a York-Newcastle local could be run, enabling TPE to cut stops? So, here's an idea:

CrossCountry
1tph Bristol TM, Parkway, Cheltenham, New St, Derby, Sheffield, maybe Meadowhall/Rotherham, Doncaster, York, Darlington, Newcastle, Berwick, Edinburgh
1tph Reading, Oxford, Banbury, Leamington, (Coventry, International), New St, Tamworth/Burton-upon-Trent, Derby, Sheffield, Wakefield, Leeds, York

Transpennine
1tph Liverpool Lime St, stations to Leeds then York, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle, Morpeth/Alnmouth, Berwick, Dunbar, Edinburgh
1tph Manchester Picc, stations to Leeds then York, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle

Either Transpennine or Northern
1tph Thirsk, Northallerton, Darlington, Durham, Chester-le-Street, Newcastle

 

[The Planner]

Here's another thought, Bristol-Newcastle could be just over 4 hours if it went via Doncaster, which is the ideal journey time for long distance.
Maybe a stop at Meadowhall or the new Rotherham station would provide connections to Leeds? Also, if the Reading service terminates at York maybe a York-Newcastle local could be run, enabling TPE to cut stops? So, here's an idea:

1tph Bristol TM, Parkway, Cheltenham, New St, Derby, Sheffield, maybe Meadowhall/Rotherham, Doncaster, York, Darlington, Newcastle, Berwick, Edinburgh
1tph Reading, Oxford, Banbury, Leamington, (Coventry, International), New St, Burton-upon-Trent, Derby, Sheffield, Wakefield, Leeds, York
For Leeds-Newcastle/Edinburgh
1tph Liverpool Lime St, stations to Leeds then York, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle, Morpeth/Alnmouth, Berwick, Dunbar, Edinburgh
1tph Manchester Picc, stations to Leeds then York, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle
Then:
1tph Thirsk, Northallerton, Darlington, Durham, Chester-le-Street, Newcastle

Tamworth and Chesterfield lose their long distance XC services completely? The SW to NE needs to be Leeds, not Reading Newcastle.

 

[FGWHST43009]

Is it possible for the intercity services to become more like the other long-distance operators, namely LNER and Avanti West Coast where trains do more skip-stop running? The services I have in mind are the Manchester, North East and Nottingham ones. Also, how could reductions in journey times be achieved with the current infrastructure and rolling stock?

 

[The Planner]

Is it possible for the intercity services to become more like the other long-distance operators, namely LNER and Avanti West Coast where trains do more skip-stop running? The services I have in mind are the Manchester, North East and Nottingham ones. Also, how could reductions in journey times be achieved with the current infrastructure and rolling stock?

Not to a great extent, XC interacts with so many routes that any time you save just ends up at a major station or hanging about somewhere.

 

[Mogz]

How about reconnecting a few major destinations to the XC network?

Swapping a couple of Bournemouth-Manchester trains to terminate at Liverpool with the quid pro quo that some Birmingham-Liverpool LNWR trains go to Manchester instead, for example?

 

[A S Leib]

How about reconnecting a few major destinations to the XC network?

Swapping a couple of Bournemouth-Manchester trains to terminate at Liverpool with the quid pro quo that some Birmingham-Liverpool LNWR trains go to Manchester instead, for example?

I think that would have been best done with HS2 or with four through platforms at Piccadilly and some services going Dorset / Devon – Birmingham – Stoke – Manchester – Liverpool. I think it's better to have a regular pattern, so with current infrastructure prioritising connections at Stafford / Wolverhampton. It's only really the extremities of very long distance services (e.g. Edinburgh – Aberdeen and Plymouth – Penzance on CrossCountry and London services) that I can see the benefit of alternating destinations.

 

[cle]

One thing occasionally mentioned is extending / connecting a Euston-Birmingham (pendo) into a Liverpool or a Manchester path. Does anything line up well?

Liverpool would be preferable, as those start at New St and ideally would run through. But wired options are very limited (e.g. Leicester might work ok, if wired) - and if you get back to say, Northampton - you're into the LNWR merger territory again, which was too delay prone. Or International can try do 1tph, Coventry doesn't have the platforms.

 

[The Planner]

One thing occasionally mentioned is extending / connecting a Euston-Birmingham (pendo) into a Liverpool or a Manchester path. Does anything line up well?

Liverpool would be preferable, as those start at New St and ideally would run through. But wired options are very limited (e.g. Leicester might work ok, if wired) - and if you get back to say, Northampton - you're into the LNWR merger territory again, which was too delay prone. Or International can try do 1tph, Coventry doesn't have the platforms.

You aren't stopping a Pendo at the likes of Penkridge etc though. Birmingham International isnt that flush with platforms with three terminators an hour either.

 

[FGWHST43009]

Maybe there needs to be a general rethink of where XC should serve and how it should serve those places? If there was more electrification then maybe the New St-Edinburgh via WCML service could be transferred to XC? However, obviously there's a lot more than just electrification. How fast were the trains/journey times under Virgin CrossCountry? Surely there must've been an effort to speed up journeys when the Voyagers were introduced?

 

[swt_passenger]

Also, if the Reading service terminates at York maybe a York-Newcastle local could be run, enabling TPE to cut stops? So, here's an idea:

The reason given, (as per the ECML Dec 2024 discussion), for some of the June 2025 reinstated Reading to Newcastle services being cut back to York is that there is no track capacity available for them north of York. If that’s correct, and there’s no reason to doubt it, there‘ll presumably also be no room for a stopper, which will get in the way of the faster services anyway. They were trying for ages to run a Middlesborough to Newcastle service via Darlington and Durham, even that couldn’t be pathed amongst the current services so has to run via Sunderland.

I suggest the idea of using stoppers to enable faster long distance services to skip calls is probably impossible on the two track railway between Northallerton and Edinburgh.