Ideas for Service changes

[dk1]

My idea for a service change might sound wacky but I'd like to see Avanti to operate Brighton services from Manchester/Liverpool/Glasgow using voyagers and serving what used to be a regular "Cross London" route via Kensington Olympia. Two to five trains a day could run, diverting away from London Euston. This worked in the 80s under BR when a fistful of trains got sent away from Euston.. But I doubt we will ever see North to Brighton Services reintroduced in my lifetime.

Those Intercity services via Kensington were an expensive mistake, hence why the route was gradually dropped completely.

 

[zwk500]

My idea for a service change might sound wacky but I'd like to see Avanti to operate Brighton services from Manchester/Liverpool/Glasgow using voyagers and serving what used to be a regular "Cross London" route via Kensington Olympia. Two to five trains a day could run, diverting away from London Euston. This worked in the 80s under BR when a fistful of trains got sent away from Euston.. But I doubt we will ever see North to Brighton Services reintroduced in my lifetime.

Forum BINGO!

Trying to cross from Fast to Slow at Wembley then Slow to Fast at Balham kills these trains.

 

[A0]

Forum BINGO!

Trying to cross from Fast to Slow at Wembley then Slow to Fast at Balham kills these trains.

And it's a terrible lack of ambition.

After all, surely the correct answer is wait until the Midland Mainline is electrified then all you need to do is extend Thameslink services to Sheffield, reopen the Woodhead route and electrify the S&C and you could run Brighton to Manchester or Glasgow without the issue of Wembley or Balham..... (runs and hides). And it has the added benefit of not running diesels under the wires or alongside the con-rail, which the OPs proposal would mean.....

Another Service which might be possible and Useful a Brighton-Gatwick-East Croydon-Herne Hill-Blackfriars-Farringdon-St Pancras Low Level-Acton Mainline-Heathrow T2&3-Heathrow T5 and then once the line is built Slough-Maidenhead-Reading.

I have to say, Why ?

There's a single change at Farringdon now for Heathrow which makes that journey infinitely easier than it was and quicker than your suggested route.

 

[cle]

After all, surely the correct answer is wait until the Midland Mainline is electrified then all you need to do is extend Thameslink services to Sheffield, reopen the Woodhead route and electrify the S&C and you could run Brighton to Manchester or Glasgow without the issue of Wembley or Balham..... (runs and hides). And it has the added benefit of not running diesels under the wires or alongside the con-rail, which the OPs proposal would mean.....

Only if you are going via Nottingham - for that lucrative Nottingham-Glasgow flow.

Jokes aside - I think 1tph Thameslink up to Wellingborough or even Corby (and give 1tph over to a Leicester EMU once wired) wouldn't be so bad for connections.

 

[A0]

Only if you are going via Nottingham - for that lucrative Nottingham-Glasgow flow.

Jokes aside - I think 1tph Thameslink up to Wellingborough or even Corby (and give 1tph over to a Leicester EMU once wired) wouldn't be so bad for connections.

But would be terrible for passengers from Corby or Wellingborough - the journey time would be ridiculous - Thameslink is about 1 hour to Bedford, EMR is 40 mins, Corby's a further 30 mins from Bedford, so a Thameslink service to Corby would be a 90 minute journey. Corby and Wellingborough have already seen their journey times slowed down and are only getting 2 tph in the peak (where it used to be 4), so I don't think a slower service just to avoid a change to head south from St Pancras is likely to be welcomed.

The connections between EMR and Thameslink are fine - either at one of the Luton stations or even at St Pancras where it's simply down 3 escalators - the box is underneath the EMR platforms, so it's far closer than the Underground.

 

[Man_with_beard]

Forum BINGO!

Trying to cross from Fast to Slow at Wembley then Slow to Fast at Balham kills these trains.

They never crossed from the fasts to the slows at Wembley its a right hand junction. They went no where near the slow lines.

Those Intercity services via Kensington were an expensive mistake, hence why the route was gradually dropped completely.

How were they a mistake? They were useful links from the North to places like Dover, Brighton, Eastbourne and Folkestone and saving on time consuming cross London missions.

 

[zwk500]

They never crossed from the fasts to the slows at Wembley its a right hand junction. They went no where near the slow lines.

Oh they used the Single Lead at West London Jn? Hadn't realised. Still, slowing down for the 25mph crossover on the Fasts is going to be about as much fun as crossing for the reliefs.

 

[Bald Rick]

How were they a mistake? They were useful links from the North to places like Dover, Brighton, Eastbourne and Folkestone and saving on time consuming cross London missions.

1) they used up capacity on both the WCML and Brighton Line / Chatham Line that
2) they were expensive to run
3) they didn’t generate much revenue - far less than the trains to London that replaced them.
4) Generally, it was quicker to transfer across London on the tube.

 

[dk1]

How were they a mistake? They were useful links from the North to places like Dover, Brighton, Eastbourne and Folkestone and saving on time consuming cross London missions.

Useful maybe but the loadings were very poor on many and why they got whittled down before complete withdrawal. It was better to concentrate cross country services to the south coast via Reading.

 

[cle]

But would be terrible for passengers from Corby or Wellingborough - the journey time would be ridiculous - Thameslink is about 1 hour to Bedford, EMR is 40 mins, Corby's a further 30 mins from Bedford, so a Thameslink service to Corby would be a 90 minute journey. Corby and Wellingborough have already seen their journey times slowed down and are only getting 2 tph in the peak (where it used to be 4), so I don't think a slower service just to avoid a change to head south from St Pancras is likely to be welcomed.

The connections between EMR and Thameslink are fine - either at one of the Luton stations or even at St Pancras where it's simply down 3 escalators - the box is underneath the EMR platforms, so it's far closer than the Underground.

For Corby, I accept that but I don’t believe it needs or justfies 2tph to London. But a second tph on the branch should be enough, it’s useful for turning. TL/EWR/shuttle - all fine for connecting to a second London if needed at Kettering.

The Thameslink otherwise would be a new frequency as there would still be the EMR 2tph - 1 Corby, 1 Leicester - and so Wellingborough and Kettering would have a more local additional service. Perhaps Luton calls could be looked at on those slows to revert to alt.

Bedford now has a EWR platform (on top of the Marston) - before any fanciful rebuild.

 

[A0]

For Corby, I accept that but I don’t believe it needs or justfies 2tph to London. But a second tph on the branch should be enough, it’s useful for turning. TL/EWR/shuttle - all fine for connecting to a second London if needed at Kettering.

The Thameslink otherwise would be a new frequency as there would still be the EMR 2tph - 1 Corby, 1 Leicester - and so Wellingborough and Kettering would have a more local additional service. Perhaps Luton calls could be looked at on those slows to revert to alt.

Bedford now has a EWR platform (on top of the Marston) - before any fanciful rebuild.

I don't agree - and adding a TL service doesn't improve matters.

Corby's usage for many years was inhibited by being an hourly service at best and commonly being little more than a shuttle from Kettering. Only recently has it moved to being a 2tph clockface service with consistent stopping patterns - lets see how that fares.

You've also ignored the fact that the MML south of Bedford is full with no additional paths and there aren't a huge number of paths available north of Kettering towards Leicester.

Not for the first time, we appear to have a solution in search of a problem.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Based on recent comments and the timetable as it now stands…

- Continue to run a half-hourly Victoria to Faversham semi-fast (one stops Longfield, one stops Meopham to even out the sectional running time).
- Extend one train to Dover, and one to Ramsgate.
- A half-hourly St Pancras to Faversham High Speed.
- Extend one of those to Dover (Canterbury only) and one of those to Ramsgate.
- Make both of those services rounders, e.g. St Pancras - Faversham - Ramsgate - Canterbury West - Ashford - St Pancras and St Pancras - Faversham - Dover - Folkestone - Ashford - St Pancras.
- A half-hourly service from Victoria to Swanley via Denmark Hill.
- Extend one an hour to Gillingham, and one an hour to Maidstone East via local stations.
- A half-hourly service from Charing Cross to Maidstone East, only stopping from London Bridge at Swanley, Borough Green, West Malling and Maidstone East. Both continue to Ashford, all stop at Bearsted, but hourly all stations.
- Extend the slower service all stops to Ramsgate via Canterbury West, meaning through links from Maidstone as County Town to Canterbury and Ramsgate.
- Extend the faster service all stops to Ramsgate via Dover, to cover the Dover to Ramsgate via Deal section.
- Half-hourly Charing Cross to Ashford via Tonbridge services, with more local calls to accelerate the Hastings trains (e.g. Orpington and Hildenborough).
- Extend those each hourly to Dover and Canterbury West, meaning three per hour between Ashford and Dover or Canterbury overall.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Based on recent comments and the timetable as it now stands…

- Continue to run a half-hourly Victoria to Faversham semi-fast (one stops Longfield, one stops Meopham to even out the sectional running time).
- Extend one train to Dover, and one to Ramsgate.
- A half-hourly St Pancras to Faversham High Speed.
- Extend one of those to Dover (Canterbury only) and one of those to Ramsgate.
- Make both of those services rounders, e.g. St Pancras - Faversham - Ramsgate - Canterbury West - Ashford - St Pancras and St Pancras - Faversham - Dover - Folkestone - Ashford - St Pancras.
- A half-hourly service from Victoria to Swanley via Denmark Hill.
- Extend one an hour to Gillingham, and one an hour to Maidstone East via local stations.
- A half-hourly service from Charing Cross to Maidstone East, only stopping from London Bridge at Swanley, Borough Green, West Malling and Maidstone East. Both continue to Ashford, all stop at Bearsted, but hourly all stations.
- Extend the slower service all stops to Ramsgate via Canterbury West, meaning through links from Maidstone as County Town to Canterbury and Ramsgate.
- Extend the faster service all stops to Ramsgate via Dover, to cover the Dover to Ramsgate via Deal section.
- Half-hourly Charing Cross to Ashford via Tonbridge services, with more local calls to accelerate the Hastings trains (e.g. Orpington and Hildenborough).
- Extend those each hourly to Dover and Canterbury West, meaning three per hour between Ashford and Dover or Canterbury overall.

Last summer, I had a day trip down to see the White Cliffs at Dover. I decided to get to Dover Priory from London Bridge, 1hr 35 mins return with many stops. I was surprised to see just how many people were making the full trip from London Bridge to Ashford or Folkestone, and the same on the way back.

So I can see a South Eastern semi fast service down to the Coast being popular once again.

Oh and may I add, high speed trains may be exciting. But there's nothing like the complexity of junctions, the numerous towns and stations you go through, and all the rolling stock you can see when using a classic railway. Will use standard services from now on instead of Javelin when visiting Kent.