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Identifying Rolling Stock

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TheLancsNinja

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I can't say my rolling stock recognition skills are up there, so I come with cap in hand asking for assistance... Can anyone ID the following:

The type of coal wagons being dragged by this 25? Flickr

Any specific Mk.1 types (TSO, BSK etc.) on this service? Flickr

I'm hoping to learn a little from this exercise and build my personal knowledge; all of this is research for a future modelling project, doubtless many years in the future but preparation is everything - any help gratefully appreciated!
 
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Gloster

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The coal wagons are standard 21 ton hoppers, TOPS HTO or HTV. The ones with fewer stanchions have been rebodied.
 

Roger1973

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Any specific Mk.1 types (TSO, BSK etc.) on this service? Flickr

All four coaches behind the loco look like TSO or SK (corridor second) - to the best of my knowledge, the body shell (so door and window layout) was the same for both types and I can't see enough of the interiors to tell. (I have an idea the pattern of roof ventilators may have been different but I can't see them and not expert enough to tell the difference.)
 

TheLancsNinja

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All four coaches behind the loco look like TSO or SK (corridor second) - to the best of my knowledge, the body shell (so door and window layout) was the same for both types and I can't see enough of the interiors to tell. (I have an idea the pattern of roof ventilators may have been different but I can't see them and not expert enough to tell the difference.)
Fabulous, that's good to go on for the time being, much appreciated!
 

TheLancsNinja

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Another question if I may; I'm researching the trip workings (usually 6T72 headcode in later years from what I can see) in the 70's and 80's that used to ferry explosives traffic from Gathurst. The few photos of this I can find show some older gunpowder vans (I believe) in the 70s, and a variety of BR ferry vans in the 80's.

I think that some of these here are VBBs based on the handle layout and lack of cross-bracing, but towards the front of the formation it's something different - is that a VIX van? - https://www.wiganworld.co.uk/album/photo.php?opt=3&id=22144&gallery=Railways&page=384

Here's another (b&w) shot of a similar working - again, I think there's VBBs in there but uncertain on the two closest to the 25, possibly VIX vans again? - https://www.flickr.com/photos/jjm2009/8179900519/

The attached photo is from an earlier working of what look to be gunpowder vans of some sort; the quality and angle don't help much! Not sure what the hoppers are either, but it's interesting that they just left them sat on the mainline whilst they did they shunting!
 

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Gloster

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The vans with the large door with a BR logo on them in the first two were former ferry vans that were later used as barrier vehicles. They would not have been loaded. The vans in the last photo are Gunpowder vans, code CXV, which lasted into the early 1980s. However, if loaded there should have been some vehicles (five, I think) between them and the loco. The hoppers appear to be standard 21-ton ones mainly used for coal; the front two look like LNER design ones.
 

TheLancsNinja

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The vans with the large door with a BR logo on them in the first two were former ferry vans that were later used as barrier vehicles. They would not have been loaded. The vans in the last photo are Gunpowder vans, code CXV, which lasted into the early 1980s. However, if loaded there should have been some vehicles (five, I think) between them and the loco. The hoppers appear to be standard 21-ton ones mainly used for coal; the front two look like LNER design ones.
Grand, thank you - that confirms they are VIX vans then! (Well, RBX, but potato/potaato) Good to know the CXV code too, thank you
 

Gloster

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The first hopper looks as though it is unbraked, so it is probably an HTO. The next three are probably also HTO, but the last two are probably HTV.
 

Adrian Barr

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I can't say my rolling stock recognition skills are up there, so I come with cap in hand asking for assistance...

If you're interested in the early 80s era of wagons, this little book might be a useful reference:

Colin J. Marsden / Rolling Stock Recognition 2: British Rail and Private Owner Wagons (published 1984, ISBN 0711014035)
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Rolling-Stock-Recognition-British-1984-08-06/dp/B01HC9O6R4

It's a 128-page pocket-sized book published in 1984, giving a good overview and historical snapshot of the wagon fleet at the time (the engineer's fleet appeared in a separate volume on departmental stock). There is currently a 2nd hand copy on Amazon for £3.99, although I often find the same books from the same sellers slightly cheaper on Ebay.

that confirms they are VIX vans then! (Well, RBX, but potato/potaato)

Those vans are rather interesting. I don't remember them in traffic, but I'm familiar with the Hornby version that was on my dad's model railway!

After reading this thread I was delving into the history of them, so might as well post my resulting notes here:

VIX 2-axle 20 ton ferry van (diagram 1/227). 400 examples built:
Unlike the later air-braked vans of the Speedlink-era, these were in the "B" series for vacuum braked wagons.
GB 786873 to GB 787022 (Built 1962-1963 by Pressed Steel)
GB 787098 to GB 787347 (Built 1963-1964 by Ashford Works)
Gained UIC 12-digit international numbers circa 1968
Phased out of ferry traffic in 1982
In 1982/1983, 150 wagons were recoded VJX for UK-only use on military stores traffic, although may have seen little actual use on this traffic.
In a caption from Working Wagons (Volume 3) David Larkin comments that "Use as a VJX van is actually unlikely and most would probably have been barrier vans long before the recoding to RBX."
Most of the vans ended up as barriers, runners or in engineers use.

They had various recodings in TOPS - there was also a curtain-sided 1978 conversion with "Leyland Parts" branding, described by David Larkin in Speedlink: Volume 1 as being converted for "a fairly short-lived traffic to transport motor parts between Longbridge and Seneffe (Belgium), mainly via Harwich"). The same book shows some RBX wagons at Thames Haven in use as oil train barrier wagons in 1982/1983. I'm not sure when the rules for barrier wagons on oil trains changed, but presumably "class A" petroleum trains still required barriers at this time?

Main variants:
VIX International ferry van; original condition
RBX Barrier Wagon (e.g. for oil or explosives traffic)
RRX Runner (bodywork removed)
VJX 150 wagons recoded for UK use, after the end of international ferry use. Lost UIC numbers and regained original B series numbers.
ZCX "Chub" Ballast / Spoil open (low-sided bodywork similar in concept to later Sea Urchin conversions from Speedlink vans)
ZQX Tool Van
ZRX Barrier wagon
ZSX Brake Force
ZVX Bogie carrier (bodywork removed, cradles fitted for carrying wagon bogies)

VIX and variants on Paul Bartlett's site, adding a few additional TOPS codes to the list above:
https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brferryvan

By coincidence, a few days before reading this thread I was puzzling over a 1996 photo I took of a "Chub" wagon behind a 37 at Warrington, not a type I remember well. I'd never realised these were originally ferry vans - although the long wheelbase makes it look like an early precursor of the later "Sea Urchin" conversions from Speedlink vans and opens.

Some interesting photos of VIX and its variants online:

7021400122 in freight brown, "Through to the Continent by British Rail" branding, and large BR arrow at Llandudno Junction in 1973:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/58585785@N08/36263296202/

VJX B787148 in Railfreight grey/red, at Willesden South West Sidings in 1986
https://www.flickr.com/photos/15038/34457318012/

ZCX "Chub" (ballast / spoil open, ex VIX) in civil engineers use at Arpley, 1990s.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/stuarts-phots/8525634546/

ZCX "Chub" wagons DB 787241 and DB 787260 in use on an engineering worksite at Midge Hall in 1991:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/martynhilbert/16893586096/

DB 786887 in use as a ZQX tool van at Severn Tunnel Junction in 1987
https://www.flickr.com/photos/95430950@N07/32966289358/

B 787347 in use as a ZRX barrier for a chlorine wagon at Eastleigh in 1988
https://www.flickr.com/photos/johndedman/50472042998/

ZSX DB 787299 in departmental use at Hoo Junction in 1987, recoded from VJX
https://www.flickr.com/photos/36034969@N08/6969347376/

B786951 running as a ZSX in the Chipmans weedkilling train at Cardiff Canton, 1990:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/95430950@N07/52798187819

DB787000 ZRX preserved at Mangapps Farm, showing a ventilator in the open position:
https://gingespotting.smugmug.com/Wagons/Z-TOPS-Code/ZRX/i-3BWLsjd/A

The final 3 vans left on the network were stored for several years at Peterborough Yard, seen before removal for preservation in 2018.
DB 787340 in freight brown, DB787011 in Railfreight grey/red, and DB786951 in grey/yellow civil engineers livery (all coded ZSX):
https://www.flickr.com/photos/johnfrombedford/40881597780/

Overview of the VIX on the Rapido trains site, with some good pictures on rotation:
https://rapidotrains.co.uk/br-dia-1-277-vix-ferry-van/

Photos of the Gathurst trips in the 1980s frequently show these ferry vans in use as barrier wagons.

=========================================
Explosives traffic and CXV gunpowder vans
=========================================

A good source of info about commercial explosives traffic is a short article (4 pages) by David Ratcliffe in the "Train Formations Handbook" from Rail Express. This 'bookazine' is nicely produced, extremely well-researched and definitely worth purchasing. If the printed version is difficult to obtain, there's a digital download available:
https://pocketmags.com/mortons-books-magazine/train-formations-handbook-from-rail-express
ISBN is 9781911276630 if you're trying to find a printed copy.

Some relevant snippets from the article (David Ratcliffe / Modeller's Guide to BR Commercial Explosives Traffic):

...most traffic was forwarded in single vanloads... to supply local collieries and quarries. Among those depots most frequently served were Ashford, Bogside (Fife), Buxton South, Callerton, Crewe Gresty Road, Frome, Llantrisant, Okehampton, Redhill, Stainforth & Hatfield, Truro and Wednesbury...

From the late 1970s long-wheelbase COV-AB vans began appearing on this traffic, initially working alongside the earlier [vacuum-braked gunpowder] vans before taking over completely in 1983 when a pool of 40 air-braked VAA/Bs and VBA/Bs was allocated specifically to the role.

...regular inter-works moves from Annan and Gathurst to Snodgrass...had ended by early 1991.

From 1984 the only vans approved for commercial explosives were types VAA/B and VBA/B.

The illustrated train formations accompanying the article show various actual Speedlink consists, with wagons from Gathurst destined to Truro, Wednesbury, Llantrisant, Okehampton, Truro, Snodgrass and Drinnick Mill.

A 1982 Gathurst trip 62 consist (hauled by a 25) has 3 loaded VAB vans in addition to a CXV van, with MXV mineral wagons used as barriers.
A 1985 Gathurst trip 62 consist (hauled by a pair of 20s) has RBX barriers around a loaded VAB van.

Callerton (near Newcastle) was also mentioned as a destination in the caption to a 1985 picture of the Gathurst trip in Traction 256 (pair of 20s, 2 loaded VAAs for Callerton and Wednesbury, with the RBX ferry vans as barriers).

I'd never really thought about the destinations for commercial explosives, but the end users being mines and quarries, and receiving depots in the areas where those industries were concentrated, makes a lot of sense...

***

This photo at Ardrossan (of a trip working heading to ICI Snodgrass) shows the smaller height of the gunpowder vans compared to the VAA/B or VBA/B types:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/53228459064/

Gunpowder van selection on Paul Bartlett's site:
https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brgunpowder

This photo of a 1980 TOPS wagon enquiry for a CXV wagon is interesting. The origin is 08302 "STEVENSTON (SNODGRASS S) ARDEER NOBEL EXPLOSIVES" and the destination 81919 was apparently ROF Puriton (Bridgwater) which produced high-explosive munitions. The CMEXMY commodity code was probably "commercial explosives for military use" (CMEXCF was another code for commercial explosives).
https://www.flickr.com/photos/rivercider/50688001301/

However, if loaded there should have been some vehicles (five, I think) between them and the loco

I think the 5-vehicle limit was a historical restriction or rule-of-thumb on the number of loaded gunpowder vans that could be marshalled together, as discussed in this RMWeb thread:
https://www.rmweb.co.uk/forums/topic/161133-gunpowder-vans-length-of-train/
That thread also mentions a rule in place in 1960 requiring two barrier wagons at each end (i.e. four in total on the train). The current rules specify an 11-metre (~36 foot) distance between class 1 explosives and the loco or rear of the train. The long-wheelbase VIX / RRX would have been ideal at nearly 42 feet long. As mentioned earlier, a 1982 consist for the Gathurst trip has MXVs as barriers, which wouldn't be long enough to meet either the older or newer standards - I wonder if the standards changed at the end of the steam era, and possibly changed again around the time the vacuum-braked gunpowder wagons were phased out? There are separate rules (calculated by TOPS) about the total weight and mix of different categories of explosives which can be marshalled together as a "group" in adjacent wagons - some ammunition trains had empty wagons within the consist (in addition to a barrier wagon at each end) to keep different "groups" of explosives separated by the correct distance.
 

TheLancsNinja

Member
Joined
9 Mar 2023
Messages
62
Location
The North
If you're interested in the early 80s era of wagons, this little book might be a useful reference:

Colin J. Marsden / Rolling Stock Recognition 2: British Rail and Private Owner Wagons (published 1984, ISBN 0711014035)
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Rolling-Stock-Recognition-British-1984-08-06/dp/B01HC9O6R4

It's a 128-page pocket-sized book published in 1984, giving a good overview and historical snapshot of the wagon fleet at the time (the engineer's fleet appeared in a separate volume on departmental stock). There is currently a 2nd hand copy on Amazon for £3.99, although I often find the same books from the same sellers slightly cheaper on Ebay.



Those vans are rather interesting. I don't remember them in traffic, but I'm familiar with the Hornby version that was on my dad's model railway!

After reading this thread I was delving into the history of them, so might as well post my resulting notes here:

VIX 2-axle 20 ton ferry van (diagram 1/227). 400 examples built:
Unlike the later air-braked vans of the Speedlink-era, these were in the "B" series for vacuum braked wagons.
GB 786873 to GB 787022 (Built 1962-1963 by Pressed Steel)
GB 787098 to GB 787347 (Built 1963-1964 by Ashford Works)
Gained UIC 12-digit international numbers circa 1968
Phased out of ferry traffic in 1982
In 1982/1983, 150 wagons were recoded VJX for UK-only use on military stores traffic, although may have seen little actual use on this traffic.
In a caption from Working Wagons (Volume 3) David Larkin comments that "Use as a VJX van is actually unlikely and most would probably have been barrier vans long before the recoding to RBX."
Most of the vans ended up as barriers, runners or in engineers use.

They had various recodings in TOPS - there was also a curtain-sided 1978 conversion with "Leyland Parts" branding, described by David Larkin in Speedlink: Volume 1 as being converted for "a fairly short-lived traffic to transport motor parts between Longbridge and Seneffe (Belgium), mainly via Harwich"). The same book shows some RBX wagons at Thames Haven in use as oil train barrier wagons in 1982/1983. I'm not sure when the rules for barrier wagons on oil trains changed, but presumably "class A" petroleum trains still required barriers at this time?

Main variants:
VIX International ferry van; original condition
RBX Barrier Wagon (e.g. for oil or explosives traffic)
RRX Runner (bodywork removed)
VJX 150 wagons recoded for UK use, after the end of international ferry use. Lost UIC numbers and regained original B series numbers.
ZCX "Chub" Ballast / Spoil open (low-sided bodywork similar in concept to later Sea Urchin conversions from Speedlink vans)
ZQX Tool Van
ZRX Barrier wagon
ZSX Brake Force
ZVX Bogie carrier (bodywork removed, cradles fitted for carrying wagon bogies)

VIX and variants on Paul Bartlett's site, adding a few additional TOPS codes to the list above:
https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brferryvan

By coincidence, a few days before reading this thread I was puzzling over a 1996 photo I took of a "Chub" wagon behind a 37 at Warrington, not a type I remember well. I'd never realised these were originally ferry vans - although the long wheelbase makes it look like an early precursor of the later "Sea Urchin" conversions from Speedlink vans and opens.

Some interesting photos of VIX and its variants online:

7021400122 in freight brown, "Through to the Continent by British Rail" branding, and large BR arrow at Llandudno Junction in 1973:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/58585785@N08/36263296202/

VJX B787148 in Railfreight grey/red, at Willesden South West Sidings in 1986
https://www.flickr.com/photos/15038/34457318012/

ZCX "Chub" (ballast / spoil open, ex VIX) in civil engineers use at Arpley, 1990s.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/stuarts-phots/8525634546/

ZCX "Chub" wagons DB 787241 and DB 787260 in use on an engineering worksite at Midge Hall in 1991:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/martynhilbert/16893586096/

DB 786887 in use as a ZQX tool van at Severn Tunnel Junction in 1987
https://www.flickr.com/photos/95430950@N07/32966289358/

B 787347 in use as a ZRX barrier for a chlorine wagon at Eastleigh in 1988
https://www.flickr.com/photos/johndedman/50472042998/

ZSX DB 787299 in departmental use at Hoo Junction in 1987, recoded from VJX
https://www.flickr.com/photos/36034969@N08/6969347376/

B786951 running as a ZSX in the Chipmans weedkilling train at Cardiff Canton, 1990:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/95430950@N07/52798187819

DB787000 ZRX preserved at Mangapps Farm, showing a ventilator in the open position:
https://gingespotting.smugmug.com/Wagons/Z-TOPS-Code/ZRX/i-3BWLsjd/A

The final 3 vans left on the network were stored for several years at Peterborough Yard, seen before removal for preservation in 2018.
DB 787340 in freight brown, DB787011 in Railfreight grey/red, and DB786951 in grey/yellow civil engineers livery (all coded ZSX):
https://www.flickr.com/photos/johnfrombedford/40881597780/

Overview of the VIX on the Rapido trains site, with some good pictures on rotation:
https://rapidotrains.co.uk/br-dia-1-277-vix-ferry-van/

Photos of the Gathurst trips in the 1980s frequently show these ferry vans in use as barrier wagons.

=========================================
Explosives traffic and CXV gunpowder vans
=========================================

A good source of info about commercial explosives traffic is a short article (4 pages) by David Ratcliffe in the "Train Formations Handbook" from Rail Express. This 'bookazine' is nicely produced, extremely well-researched and definitely worth purchasing. If the printed version is difficult to obtain, there's a digital download available:
https://pocketmags.com/mortons-books-magazine/train-formations-handbook-from-rail-express
ISBN is 9781911276630 if you're trying to find a printed copy.

Some relevant snippets from the article (David Ratcliffe / Modeller's Guide to BR Commercial Explosives Traffic):



The illustrated train formations accompanying the article show various actual Speedlink consists, with wagons from Gathurst destined to Truro, Wednesbury, Llantrisant, Okehampton, Truro, Snodgrass and Drinnick Mill.

A 1982 Gathurst trip 62 consist (hauled by a 25) has 3 loaded VAB vans in addition to a CXV van, with MXV mineral wagons used as barriers.
A 1985 Gathurst trip 62 consist (hauled by a pair of 20s) has RBX barriers around a loaded VAB van.

Callerton (near Newcastle) was also mentioned as a destination in the caption to a 1985 picture of the Gathurst trip in Traction 256 (pair of 20s, 2 loaded VAAs for Callerton and Wednesbury, with the RBX ferry vans as barriers).

I'd never really thought about the destinations for commercial explosives, but the end users being mines and quarries, and receiving depots in the areas where those industries were concentrated, makes a lot of sense...

***

This photo at Ardrossan (of a trip working heading to ICI Snodgrass) shows the smaller height of the gunpowder vans compared to the VAA/B or VBA/B types:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/53228459064/

Gunpowder van selection on Paul Bartlett's site:
https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brgunpowder

This photo of a 1980 TOPS wagon enquiry for a CXV wagon is interesting. The origin is 08302 "STEVENSTON (SNODGRASS S) ARDEER NOBEL EXPLOSIVES" and the destination 81919 was apparently ROF Puriton (Bridgwater) which produced high-explosive munitions. The CMEXMY commodity code was probably "commercial explosives for military use" (CMEXCF was another code for commercial explosives).
https://www.flickr.com/photos/rivercider/50688001301/



I think the 5-vehicle limit was a historical restriction or rule-of-thumb on the number of loaded gunpowder vans that could be marshalled together, as discussed in this RMWeb thread:
https://www.rmweb.co.uk/forums/topic/161133-gunpowder-vans-length-of-train/
That thread also mentions a rule in place in 1960 requiring two barrier wagons at each end (i.e. four in total on the train). The current rules specify an 11-metre (~36 foot) distance between class 1 explosives and the loco or rear of the train. The long-wheelbase VIX / RRX would have been ideal at nearly 42 feet long. As mentioned earlier, a 1982 consist for the Gathurst trip has MXVs as barriers, which wouldn't be long enough to meet either the older or newer standards - I wonder if the standards changed at the end of the steam era, and possibly changed again around the time the vacuum-braked gunpowder wagons were phased out? There are separate rules (calculated by TOPS) about the total weight and mix of different categories of explosives which can be marshalled together as a "group" in adjacent wagons - some ammunition trains had empty wagons within the consist (in addition to a barrier wagon at each end) to keep different "groups" of explosives separated by the correct distance.
This is a remarkably comprehensive reply - thank you very much, some excellent gen in here!

Good pics, but take some of the words with a pinch of salt!
Duly noted - might pick it up for the pictures though!
 
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