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If 20% of train services are to be cut due to the change in usage patterns, what would you cut?

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Nicholas Lewis

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This.

The press reports that stimulated this thread suggested that the Treasury requires the service cuts to be implemented from the May 2021 timetable change. In that timeframe it is impractical to develop a major timetable recast, as many posts in this thread propose. All that is realistically possible is to remove some diagrams from the existing timetable, together with some minor tweaks, as has already been done this year.
The driver is reduced support in the next financial year but it was 0.6B in 19/20 and is forecast at 8.0B this year and currently budgeted at 2.1B next year.

All this from spending review 2020 here

So that assumes a big return in traffic and also not factored in is any ongoing subsidy for TfL and light rail systems which have taken a further 4.8B out of DofT budget this year not exactly realistic. So if the fare box doesn't returning to something like 70-80% of pre covid levels there is no way current levels of service are sustainable. However, its not that simple to switch off billions of operational expenditure and I don't believe they will but in exchange for ongoing support the industry is going to have to demonstrate it has at least taken out the low hanging fruit without either causing redundancies nor destroying the capability of the network ie no line closures. The industry would also do well to look at aviation where many employees with full support of sensible unions have offered up salary reductions to ensure they keep there jobs and have an industry that if it bounces back they will benefit as well.
 
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cle

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A lot of the suggestions are quite brutal, and are more like 50% cuts. 2tph to 1tph is a horrible change of service in most cases, and will send people to their cars.

Let's also remember that we may be not allowed to travel abroad, or some may prefer not to - or be skint - Cornwall this year was packed and perhaps seeds of domestic travel were planted. Leisure routes should be supported and strengthened.

Running off peak or Saturday timetables might well hit the target, especially if concentrated on core commuter routes in the Home Counties. There are a lot of sops and express patterns which are nice to haves, less crucial with lower commuting volumes. These could be removed and stock shuffled to ensure maximum lengths where possible, and SDO stock where not.

Hit the higher income stations/locations more - higher paid folk have more discretion to work from home, and coincidentally, those affluent stations tend to have great peak fast service. See: all trains now stopping at Godalming!

Or where there is higher core frequency without tons of branching, that can be culled/consolidated. See Shenfield, Moorgate routes, Chingford, Dartford and Orpington services (which like most others, can survive with one terminus!) - those via Epsom too.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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A lot of the suggestions are quite brutal, and are more like 50% cuts. 2tph to 1tph is a horrible change of service in most cases, and will send people to their cars.

Let's also remember that we may be not allowed to travel abroad, or some may prefer not to - or be skint - Cornwall this year was packed and perhaps seeds of domestic travel were planted. Leisure routes should be supported and strengthened.

Running off peak or Saturday timetables might well hit the target, especially if concentrated on core commuter routes in the Home Counties. There are a lot of sops and express patterns which are nice to haves, less crucial with lower commuting volumes. These could be removed and stock shuffled to ensure maximum lengths where possible, and SDO stock where not.

Hit the higher income stations/locations more - higher paid folk have more discretion to work from home, and coincidentally, those affluent stations tend to have great peak fast service. See: all trains now stopping at Godalming!

Or where there is higher core frequency without tons of branching, that can be culled/consolidated. See Shenfield, Moorgate routes, Chingford, Dartford and Orpington services (which like most others, can survive with one terminus!) - those via Epsom too.
Only worth targeting cutbacks at any depot that relies on high levels of overtime and rest day working to cover the service as the staff will have to be paid anyhow and the stock leased. Energy costs are a small part of overall costs.
 

The Ham

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I do wonder if well see the cuts fall on metro services more than on longer distance services.

As an example, the Basingstoke stoppers could be cut and the minor stations between Basingstoke and Woking added to the other services which currently call at Farnborough Main (Portsmouth via Eastleigh and a Southampton service) in doing so it would improve connectivity (less need to change at Basingstoke), and keep the same frequency (however would givea faster journey time to London).

Those that loose out would be the stations inwards of Woking which would see a reduction in semi fast services and a small increase in journey time from South of Basingstoke.

As passenger numbers increase then the Basingstoke stoppers could fairly easily be added back into the timetable (which may result in 3tph rather than 2tph once one is added back at the more minor stations, before reverting to 2tph once both are reinstated and the spa are removed from the longer distance services again).
 

Purple Orange

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I am so glad this forum does not run the railways. There is a perverse fetish among certain forumers that services must be cut - and they seem to enjoy the topic of reducing the railway!
 

The Ham

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I am so glad this forum does not run the railways. There is a perverse fetish among certain forumers that services must be cut - and they seem to enjoy the topic of reducing the railway!

I suspect that few in here actually want to make the cuts.

However one thing that got me thinking, if we are looking to ways of reducing subsidy, as passenger numbers are likely to fall (and this routes into the issue of NR is fairly fixed in its costs so if you reduce services you only make fairly superficial cuts) is there any merit in redistributing resources?

For instance if the expectation is that travel into Central London is going to fall significantly, could we increase income by reducing some of the services into London, however replace them with the services which many would like to see that aren't so London centric. As many have pointed out, trains serving local areas have remained busy (especially those which serve schools and colleges).

By finding suitable alternative routes, the overall frequency of services could remain (retaining passengers) and new station pairings could be more viable (attracting more passengers to the railways).

Yes it may result in some passengers needing to change trains to get to London, but if there had been 2tph direct and this changes to 1tph direct and 1tph with a change (ideally taking 10-15 minutes longer than the direct service) then the impact should be fairly small.

Of course it could cause issues when you need to reintroduce both direct services, however chances are there's the capacity on the network for both it's just that there's never been the rolling stock available.

If that's the case, then in the long term it could even reduce the subsidy needed as the extra costs to NR for those extra services would be fairly small, but they would generate extra income which wouldn't have existed before.

For the TOC's it's a good opportunity to use resources which would either be sat Idle or would otherwise be less well used.

As an example the SWR services to Yeovil could, rather than running to Waterloo, replace the GWR stopping service to Reading from Basingstoke. In doing so it would allow a better connection between Reading and Salisbury, but the local services between Basingstoke and Yeovil would retain their frequency and if they wished to travel to London then they'll have to change at Basingstoke, however with fewer people doing so then it becomes less of an issue. However for those from Andover going to Basingstoke for employment and college they keep their same frequency.

In time, if demand requires the services to Waterloo to be reinstated, then chances are they could be with only the need to improve the junction at Basingstoke (which needs doing anyway). It could even help the case to improve capacity through Reading West (when the new service is needed and a second service an hour for the old shuttle between Basingstoke and Reading is needed, and/or a second Yeovil to Reading service is required).

Of course there's going to be holes in the above suggestion, but it was just to illustrate the sort if thing which could be done.

Some of the best options may well require the linking of lines (so some new chords) to allow such services to run (as the junctions have always been setup to run services to London).

This may not be a good service, but just to highlight the sort of thing which could be done; a rail service running Guildford to Chessington South. With reduced commuter demand it could be that rail services look to keep into other markets. By connecting Guildford to Chessington World of Adventures it provides opportunity for station pairings which may be otherwise hard to achieve and puts a lot more places just one change away from it. In doing so it make rail travel more attractive. People are willing to change trains at a major station, less so at somewhere which is an unknown to them, or (in the case of people traveling from Portsmouth) could mean changing trains (at Woking) to be able to change trains (at Wimbledon) to be able to get to Chessington South.
 

Minstral25

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Part 2: Thameslink
  • Peterborough to remain at 2tph, but only 1tph will continue through the core to Horsham. The other 1tph will terminate at Kings Cross.
  • Cambridge - Brighton reduced to 1tph.
  • Cambridge - Kings Cross reduced to 1tph.
  • Bedford - Brighton to remain at 2tph.
  • Bedford - Gatwick Airport withdrawn.
  • Luton - Rainham (Kent) to remain at 2tph.
  • St Albans - Wimbledon to remain at 4tph with 2tph going clockwise round the Wimbledon loop and the other 2tph going anticlockwise.
  • Kentish Town - Orpington to remain at 2tph.
  • Blackfriars - Sevenoaks reduced to 1tph.
This gives a total of 12tph through the Thameslink core, approximately 80% of the 2019 frequency.

So you have just cut Redhill & Horley from 4 Thameslink London trains per hour to just 1 - that will be the only train hourly at Horley but at least Redhill gets some 4 car trains to Victoria still, also withdrawing the entire off-peak train service from Earlswood and Salfords and reducing Merstham and Coulsdon South from 2 Thameslink Trains per hour to none. You have also halved the stopping service from Gatwick to Horsham.

Thameslink is the major train provider on the Redhill lines between Purley and Horsham, so whilst cutting trains north of London seems a good idea you are wrecking the Service here. I think you will find that the majority of these services will still be needed.
 

gingerheid

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I am so glad this forum does not run the railways. There is a perverse fetish among certain forumers that services must be cut - and they seem to enjoy the topic of reducing the railway!

I would love services to not be cut.

On the other hand I'm not expected in the office before at least July and then only for 1 day a week...
 

Bletchleyite

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I suspect that few in here actually want to make the cuts.

Yes and no. Absent the funding to build adequate infrastructure to make them reliable, I absolutely favour reducing services that are too frequent and therefore causing reliability issues ("too frequent" is basically defined as "cannot be operated punctually using the staff and stock available").

What I want is a punctual, reliable railway (95%+ on both measures every day) with good planned connections - the Swiss model - not cramming in the highest frequency possible.

This provides an opportunity to get there, as the former is cheaper than the latter.

Spare paths are a virtue.
 

43096

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I am so glad this forum does not run the railways. There is a perverse fetish among certain forumers that services must be cut - and they seem to enjoy the topic of reducing the railway!
Any other business in this position would a) be reducing costs quickly and b) certainly wouldn’t be putting through price rises as is planned for 2021.

The passenger railway frankly needs to get real to the position it is in. The current position is unsustainable, yet too many working in the industry think that there is some sort of divine right to carry on regardless.
 

4-SUB 4732

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For me, I think this boils down to, where absolutely necessary, limited overall service cuts (examples like the third Birmingham or Manchester for Avanti are a good shout, so perhaps would be the Lincoln LNER, etc), until the leisure market returns.

Heavy peak services such as on Southeastern definitely need not return, nor do the excessive off-peak frequencies.

In some cases, I’d also happily advocate longer ‘core’ services (e.g. half-hourly York to Liverpool Lime Street), with a shuttle from Scarborough to York to connect in; a shuttle from Middlesbrough to Huddersfield (taking up the stops of the all-stations) and a Hull to Manchester laid over picking up stops south of Huddersfield.

Leeds to Carlisle could easily be Leeds to Skipton; and across the board I’m sure we could sensibly compromise to put longer trains on trunk routes, with connections. Instead of trying therefore to run from A to D, hourly with a 5 car, you run B to C half-hourly with 3/4/5, and shuttles A to B and C to D with the two car necessary for the number of passengers.
 

Bletchleyite

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In some cases, I’d also happily advocate longer ‘core’ services (e.g. half-hourly York to Liverpool Lime Street), with a shuttle from Scarborough to York to connect in; a shuttle from Middlesbrough to Huddersfield (taking up the stops of the all-stations) and a Hull to Manchester laid over picking up stops south of Huddersfield.

I'm not sure of the need for that with TPE - there are 4 North TPE destinations, which could each be served hourly with 2 going to Manchester (and the Airport via Ordsall if you absolutely must, but I'd prefer terminating in Picc P1/2) and 2 to Liverpool via Victoria. Ideally have them evenly spaced for a clean 15 minute frequency on the core section, or as close to it as possible.
 

Horizon22

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Part 2: Thameslink
  • Peterborough to remain at 2tph, but only 1tph will continue through the core to Horsham. The other 1tph will terminate at Kings Cross.
  • Cambridge - Brighton reduced to 1tph.
  • Cambridge - Kings Cross reduced to 1tph.
  • Bedford - Brighton to remain at 2tph.
  • Bedford - Gatwick Airport withdrawn.
  • Luton - Rainham (Kent) to remain at 2tph.
  • St Albans - Wimbledon to remain at 4tph with 2tph going clockwise round the Wimbledon loop and the other 2tph going anticlockwise.
  • Kentish Town - Orpington to remain at 2tph.
  • Blackfriars - Sevenoaks reduced to 1tph.
This gives a total of 12tph through the Thameslink core, approximately 80% of the 2019 frequency.

The core is probably an area that would need less than a 20% reduction for those internal London journeys that remain high - not forgetting its just been put on the map due to TfL planned works. If there are suitable terminals then I'd suggest 16tph retaining some of the longer distance trains even if they're not as heavily patronaged at either end.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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So you have just cut Redhill & Horley from 4 Thameslink London trains per hour to just 1 - that will be the only train hourly at Horley but at least Redhill gets some 4 car trains to Victoria still, also withdrawing the entire off-peak train service from Earlswood and Salfords and reducing Merstham and Coulsdon South from 2 Thameslink Trains per hour to none. You have also halved the stopping service from Gatwick to Horsham.

Thameslink is the major train provider on the Redhill lines between Purley and Horsham, so whilst cutting trains north of London seems a good idea you are wrecking the Service here. I think you will find that the majority of these services will still be needed.
Adding Salfords/Earlswood stops to the Horsham-Peterborough service is probably the most sensible solution on this route. However, Thameslink then have surplus modern trains and crew and what should we do with them?

I believe it needs circa 8-10 12car 700's to run the Bedford- Gatwick service so perhaps they should be redeployed to run the Corby service and the 360's could have been left on the GE to allow older non PRM stock to be removed. All good fun playing around on the kitchen table!!

What needs to happen here is for govt to release Williams review, issue White Paper and appoint a czar to pull this altogether and not allow a disparate approach by ex TOCs and NR to do what they want leading to less than perfect outcome that has to be unpicked at greater cost.
 

Ianno87

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Any other business in this position would a) be reducing costs quickly and b) certainly wouldn’t be putting through price rises as is planned for 2021.

The passenger railway frankly needs to get real to the position it is in. The current position is unsustainable, yet too many working in the industry think that there is some sort of divine right to carry on regardless.

The problem is that few of the railway's costs are truly variable. If you're paying for stock and crew anyway then they might as well be out in service generating revenue.

The only way to reduce operating costs is to take stock off-lease and make staff redundant. But the lead time on replacing this risks leaving the railway unable to respond should demand return.

It's not beyond the realms of possibility that something resembling 'normality' could be back as soon as late 2021.
 

nr758123

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and a Hull to Manchester laid over picking up stops south of Huddersfield.

That's already happening in evenings and on Sundays. Fine under present circumstances provided that it can be operated punctually and reliably. Not fine if it leads, at the stations west of Huddersfield, to a return to the level of delays and cancellations in the May 2018 timetable.
 

PTR 444

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Part 3: SWR
  • Waterloo - Weymouth reduced to 1tph calling at Clapham Jcn, Woking, Basingstoke, Winchester, Soton Apt Pkwy, Soton Central, Brockenhurst, New Milton and all stations west.
  • Waterloo - Portsmouth reduced from 3tph to 2tph with one being fast and the other calling at all stations south of Haslemere.
  • Waterloo - Haslemere stopper to remain at 1tph.
  • Waterloo - Salisbury withdrawn.
  • Waterloo - Exeter remains 1tph but with additional calls at Overton, Whitchurch and Grateley.
  • Waterloo - Alton reduced to 1tph, with the other tph only running Waterloo - Farnham.
  • Waterloo - Portsmouth Harbour via Eastleigh to remain 1tph.
  • Waterloo - Poole semi-fast to remain 1tph.
  • Romsey - Salisbury rounder to remain at 1tph.
  • Southampton Central - Portsmouth & Southsea to remain at 1tph.
  • Waterloo - Basingstoke stopper reduced to 1tph.
  • Guildford - Farnham reduced to 1tph.
  • Aldershot - Ascot reduced to 1tph.
  • Waterloo - Guildford via Effingham Junction reduced to 2tph. 1tph via Cobham and 1tph via Epsom.
  • Waterloo - Epsom - Dorking reduced to 1tph.
  • Waterloo - Kingston - Waterloo reduced to 1tph in each direction.
  • Waterloo - Hounslow - Waterloo reduced to 1tph in each direction.
  • Waterloo - Reading remains 2tph.
  • Waterloo - Windsor remains 2tph.
  • All other metro services to keep their pre-pandemic frequencies.
 

YorksLad12

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For me, I think this boils down to, where absolutely necessary, limited overall service cuts (examples like the third Birmingham or Manchester for Avanti are a good shout, so perhaps would be the Lincoln LNER, etc), until the leisure market returns.

Heavy peak services such as on Southeastern definitely need not return, nor do the excessive off-peak frequencies.

In some cases, I’d also happily advocate longer ‘core’ services (e.g. half-hourly York to Liverpool Lime Street), with a shuttle from Scarborough to York to connect in; a shuttle from Middlesbrough to Huddersfield (taking up the stops of the all-stations) and a Hull to Manchester laid over picking up stops south of Huddersfield.

Leeds to Carlisle could easily be Leeds to Skipton; and across the board I’m sure we could sensibly compromise to put longer trains on trunk routes, with connections. Instead of trying therefore to run from A to D, hourly with a 5 car, you run B to C half-hourly with 3/4/5, and shuttles A to B and C to D with the two car necessary for the number of passengers.

Mostly I agree with you. If you look at the planned LNER services to Leeds, for example, the Harrogate extension was going to be added to a new service that doesn't call at Westgate, with the two current services calling at only one of Doncaster and Peterborough between Wakefield and London. Scrap that third service for now and keep the current extension until the market improves.

I think in your Leeds to Carlisle example, most of the people on that service from Leeds will be travelling beyond Skipton; I'd pull the Skipton-Leeds sections (same with the Morecambe service) for now if there's reduced demand between Leeds and Skipton.
 

4-SUB 4732

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That's already happening in evenings and on Sundays. Fine under present circumstances provided that it can be operated punctually and reliably. Not fine if it leads, at the stations west of Huddersfield, to a return to the level of delays and cancellations in the May 2018 timetable.

Yes of course; but we are talking about ridership and such and sensible cuts. Less trains overall on TPE is a good thing, some more dwell times means more punctuality. And, of course, through trains are good for possible improved numbers. It’s not like I’m making the decisions but I just feel we need to rationalise where possible to make things cheaper, and not allow the DfT the ability to wantonly axe whole services to everyone’s detriment.
 

Minstral25

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Adding Salfords/Earlswood stops to the Horsham-Peterborough service is probably the most sensible solution on this route. However, Thameslink then have surplus modern trains and crew and what should we do with them?

I believe it needs circa 8-10 12car 700's to run the Bedford- Gatwick service so perhaps they should be redeployed to run the Corby service and the 360's could have been left on the GE to allow older non PRM stock to be removed. All good fun playing around on the kitchen table!!

What needs to happen here is for govt to release Williams review, issue White Paper and appoint a czar to pull this altogether and not allow a disparate approach by ex TOCs and NR to do what they want leading to less than perfect outcome that has to be unpicked at greater cost.

Original post said halving the Peterborough to Horsham service, so the reduction suggested would be just one Thameslink train per hour along the Redhill route. Southern services only run in the peak beyond Redhill to Gatwick.

In adding stops don't forget to add Norwood Junction and Purley to the Peterborough to Horsham as well - the Bedford to Gatwick's provide link from both these stations to Gatwick Airport (and for Norwood to Coulsdon & Redhill) for which there was reasonable usage. For instance many shops in Redhill are staffed from Norwood.

Also the Peterborough to Horsham's use the fast line from London Bridge to Coulsdon crossing at Stoats Nest so you also have the problem of a train stopping on the fast line at Purley (timing of route through the core does not allow use of slow line due to occupancy by other local trains). That is of course without needing an extra unit or 2 for the extra stops to provide sufficient turn round time at Horsham.

There will also be problem of overcrowding from Redhill lines into London, the 4tph Thameslink services were very full 12 car services before Covid at peak times so 1 or 2 tph at Peak times will not have capacity for all the passengers. The off peak Reigate to Victoria were often overloaded by Coulsdon going into London due to the restricted 4 car service so unlikely to have extra capacity there to cover the missing Thameslink services
 

jfisher21

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So what about the WCML IC services to Liverpool, are they that unimportant to lose all their IC services to London or are you expecting people to get a all stations service to London?

If the latter then why not Birmingham as they have the choice of three TOCs to get to and from Birmingham.
Sorry, forgot about them! 1tph to Liverpool and 1tp2h to Holyhead
 

185

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My reply to the main forum thread regarding the Mail / Telegraph articles, '20% service cuts' was moved to this "Speculative Ideas" thread.

Five weeks prior to Christmas, I posted on here that a major financial review of the railway was being discussed, and I subsequently wrote to rail minister Chris Heaton-Harris MP regarding the protection of the very first and last trains, whilst reducing quiet daytime 'leisure' trains. I received his (rather thorough) reply quite recently.

Discussion of this seems to have been deemed a Speculative Idea, and it was quickly moved to this thread.

Apologies for angry old man rant, but I wonder if this were 1963, would all mention of the Beeching cuts be ushered somewhere under the Photo of the month! thread?
 

43096

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Part 3: SWR
  • Waterloo - Hounslow - Waterloo reduced to 1tph in each direction.
  • Waterloo - Reading remains 2tph.
The alternative would be to keep the Hounslow rounders as 2tph, but cut the Waterloo-Weybridge via Hounslow and run it as a Virginia Water-Weybridge shuttle.

Retaining the Reading service as 2tph seems sensible, but withdraw the additional peak workings that currently give a 4tph service in the peak.
 

HamworthyGoods

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The alternative would be to keep the Hounslow rounders as 2tph, but cut the Waterloo-Weybridge via Hounslow and run it as a Virginia Water-Weybridge shuttle.

Retaining the Reading service as 2tph seems sensible, but withdraw the additional peak workings that currently give a 4tph service in the peak.

SWR proposed severing the Hounslow loop from Feltham, Staines etc in their December 2018 timetable consultation and the consultation results published showed that this was a more important link than round the corner to Twickenham and Richmond so can’t see this being proposed again.
 

43096

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SWR proposed severing the Hounslow loop from Feltham, Staines etc in their December 2018 timetable consultation and the consultation results published showed that this was a more important link than round the corner to Twickenham and Richmond so can’t see this being proposed again.
Perhaps run 1tph of each then, which still gives the loop a 2tph service to London (3 from Hounslow).
 

tbtc

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Any other business in this position would a) be reducing costs quickly and b) certainly wouldn’t be putting through price rises as is planned for 2021.

The passenger railway frankly needs to get real to the position it is in. The current position is unsustainable, yet too many working in the industry think that there is some sort of divine right to carry on regardless.

Agreed.

The disconnect on here is quite something - we have industry professionals saying that ticket revenue in some places is only a tenth of what it was a year ago yet we have a number of enthusiasts complaining about every little proposed cut, as if there's a chance that the railway can get away with ignoring these massive changes to work/leisure patterns (maybe because the railway got to ignore most of the Austerity years that significantly impacted other "public services"?).

The reason that I find this thread interesting is that rail cuts are a very difficult thing to achieve - it's easy for my local bus operator to reduce frequency by one journey per hour (every ten minutes to twelve, every twelve to fifteen etc) but this is a lot harder on the railway.

Firstly, whilst a bus route can get tweaked on its own (with no changes to other services required), doing so on the railway may mean a number of conflicts. Trying to go down from a fifteen minute train service to a twenty minute train service may look like a simple reduction to outsiders but actually means creating two new paths per hour (which may not be possible as they conflict with other movements. For example, a service running at xx:00, x:15, xx:30 and xx:45 might become one running at xx:00, xx:20 and xx:40 but would those new paths at xx:20 and xx:40 be able to run without getting in the way of other services? Not a problem if two buses come along a street within thirty seconds of each other (because the operator amended one service but not the other, so they no longer coordinate) but a big issue if a train is now trying to cross a flat junction at the same time that another was scheduled to. The same is true in reverse, e.g. it's often easier to double a train frequency than make a smaller improvement to it (National Express changed the Edinburgh - Glasgow "shuttle" from every half hour to every fifteen minutes on ScotRail, National Express changed the London - Leicester service from two per hour to four per hour on Midland Mainline) because that way you are retaining the existing paths too.

Secondly, whilst a bus route stops at all stops, not all train services do. In fact, whilst there are various corridors that have frequent services, there aren't many train services in the UK with a service pattern better than half hourly. So it's easy to say "lop off one of the Avanti Manchester services" but only one of them serves Crewe, only one of them serves Macclesfield, same with the way that the three Birmingham services have different stopping patterns south/east of Coventry. So it's not as simple as thinning out the timetable may sound (since

And adding in an extra stop might mean missing your slot at the next junction or having insufficient turnaround time at the terminus. Fine with buses, you just add an extra bus into the PVR, but a lot harder to arrange this with trains (hence the discussion about adding an extra stop in each direction to the London Euston - Glasgow Central services might make layover in Glasgow insufficient (and lower than any allowance for a staff break), so you'd need a situation like EMR had at St Pancras where the Nottingham HSTs had to sit in London for seventy minutes, since a ten minute turnaround wasn't practical - tying up a platform.

Plus... Beeching (since any thread about any type of cut apparently needs to mention Beeching...) was intended as a permanent cut... this isn't, it it might not be. Maybe the economy will come bouncing back as we head into those "sunlit uplands" that politicians keep promising. Maybe we'll all be working in city centre offices five days a week and taking all those flights and those closed leisure businesses will all re-open and we can go back to the "good old days" of 2019 at some stage. So how do you balance the obvious need to make some kind of cuts right now with an eye on the need to bring things back at some stage? It makes the "problem" more interesting/ complicated - a lot harder to try to solve. This might only be a "temporary" thing or it might be for a decade. Hence my earlier suggestion that we try to keep all lines open and all stock operational - we need to take some action now but we don't know how long it'll be for, how quickly we'll bounce back (if we ever do). We probably need to make cuts with a degree of flexibility to start adding services back in again as/if things recover.

But the comments about how cutting one service per hour on a particular line will be "unpopular" seem a bit wide of the mark - if we are running trains with only a quarter/ fifth/ tenth of the passengers that we used to have then that's unsustainable. Refusing to cut anything is just going to make the railway look inflexible, a heavily loss making monolith that a Tory Government is going to want to tackle (especially if the significant reduction in Home Counties commuters means that the railway won't be something that traditional Conservative voters rely upon so much, so it'll be a softer target for cuts if that constituency of customers dwindle away - it'd be a lot easier for Tories to cut things that traditional Tory voters don't use as much - hence what happened to Sure Start etc)
 

RT4038

Established Member
Joined
22 Feb 2014
Messages
4,883
Agreed.

The disconnect on here is quite something - we have industry professionals saying that ticket revenue in some places is only a tenth of what it was a year ago yet we have a number of enthusiasts complaining about every little proposed cut, as if there's a chance that the railway can get away with ignoring these massive changes to work/leisure patterns (maybe because the railway got to ignore most of the Austerity years that significantly impacted other "public services"?).

The reason that I find this thread interesting is that rail cuts are a very difficult thing to achieve - it's easy for my local bus operator to reduce frequency by one journey per hour (every ten minutes to twelve, every twelve to fifteen etc) but this is a lot harder on the railway.

Firstly, whilst a bus route can get tweaked on its own (with no changes to other services required), doing so on the railway may mean a number of conflicts. Trying to go down from a fifteen minute train service to a twenty minute train service may look like a simple reduction to outsiders but actually means creating two new paths per hour (which may not be possible as they conflict with other movements. For example, a service running at xx:00, x:15, xx:30 and xx:45 might become one running at xx:00, xx:20 and xx:40 but would those new paths at xx:20 and xx:40 be able to run without getting in the way of other services? Not a problem if two buses come along a street within thirty seconds of each other (because the operator amended one service but not the other, so they no longer coordinate) but a big issue if a train is now trying to cross a flat junction at the same time that another was scheduled to. The same is true in reverse, e.g. it's often easier to double a train frequency than make a smaller improvement to it (National Express changed the Edinburgh - Glasgow "shuttle" from every half hour to every fifteen minutes on ScotRail, National Express changed the London - Leicester service from two per hour to four per hour on Midland Mainline) because that way you are retaining the existing paths too.

Secondly, whilst a bus route stops at all stops, not all train services do. In fact, whilst there are various corridors that have frequent services, there aren't many train services in the UK with a service pattern better than half hourly. So it's easy to say "lop off one of the Avanti Manchester services" but only one of them serves Crewe, only one of them serves Macclesfield, same with the way that the three Birmingham services have different stopping patterns south/east of Coventry. So it's not as simple as thinning out the timetable may sound (since

And adding in an extra stop might mean missing your slot at the next junction or having insufficient turnaround time at the terminus. Fine with buses, you just add an extra bus into the PVR, but a lot harder to arrange this with trains (hence the discussion about adding an extra stop in each direction to the London Euston - Glasgow Central services might make layover in Glasgow insufficient (and lower than any allowance for a staff break), so you'd need a situation like EMR had at St Pancras where the Nottingham HSTs had to sit in London for seventy minutes, since a ten minute turnaround wasn't practical - tying up a platform.

Plus... Beeching (since any thread about any type of cut apparently needs to mention Beeching...) was intended as a permanent cut... this isn't, it it might not be. Maybe the economy will come bouncing back as we head into those "sunlit uplands" that politicians keep promising. Maybe we'll all be working in city centre offices five days a week and taking all those flights and those closed leisure businesses will all re-open and we can go back to the "good old days" of 2019 at some stage. So how do you balance the obvious need to make some kind of cuts right now with an eye on the need to bring things back at some stage? It makes the "problem" more interesting/ complicated - a lot harder to try to solve. This might only be a "temporary" thing or it might be for a decade. Hence my earlier suggestion that we try to keep all lines open and all stock operational - we need to take some action now but we don't know how long it'll be for, how quickly we'll bounce back (if we ever do). We probably need to make cuts with a degree of flexibility to start adding services back in again as/if things recover.

But the comments about how cutting one service per hour on a particular line will be "unpopular" seem a bit wide of the mark - if we are running trains with only a quarter/ fifth/ tenth of the passengers that we used to have then that's unsustainable. Refusing to cut anything is just going to make the railway look inflexible, a heavily loss making monolith that a Tory Government is going to want to tackle (especially if the significant reduction in Home Counties commuters means that the railway won't be something that traditional Conservative voters rely upon so much, so it'll be a softer target for cuts if that constituency of customers dwindle away - it'd be a lot easier for Tories to cut things that traditional Tory voters don't use as much - hence what happened to Sure Start etc)

I don't believe rail cuts of the magnitude that is required now is anything like as difficult to achieve as it is being made out by the railway professionals to whom it is in their interests not to make them. They are pretty adept at producing temporary (reduced) schedules for other emergencies. If they were a private company haemorrhaging cash at the current rate, ways of reducing service and costs would have been found long ago.

From this forum we have been told that revenue is down 75-90%. Passengers may not be down quite so much, as the loss of passengers has more than likely been in the higher revenue brackets. This would seem to indicate a larger cut (50%+) would be more appropriate, so only having to make 20% at this stage is getting off quite lightly. Revenue will be more important than passenger numbers to the Treasury.

The Rail industry is going to have to reduce services, and reduce the costs of the services it does operate; a painful time is coming. The market is unlikely to recover to pre-Covid levels for a long time, People have discovered WFH and have realised that the number of other journeys are not so necessary, and anyway are often more convenient by private transport (on roads not so congested for the same reasons)

Timetables are much easier to compile if there are substantially fewer trains running, and some of the cuts will not be pretty to start with. Some will be 'unpopular', but then trains as a whole are not exactly popular at the moment, if the revenue figures are anything to go by. Start with peak time extras on commuter lines, frequencies in general, esp. long distance express trains and lines with overlapping trains resulting in 'overtraining' and evening services in general.

You make a very good point regarding voters and how the railway has become a much less 'politically' important.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
105,345
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Five weeks prior to Christmas, I posted on here that a major financial review of the railway was being discussed, and I subsequently wrote to rail minister Chris Heaton-Harris MP regarding the protection of the very first and last trains, whilst reducing quiet daytime 'leisure' trains. I received his (rather thorough) reply quite recently.

Discussion of this seems to have been deemed a Speculative Idea, and it was quickly moved to this thread.

I can only see one other post from you on this thread, and it is speculative - there are no references on it to a letter to an MP, simply the expression of a view that first/last trains should be retained and daytime services thinned?

Unless it was stated as confidential, could you perhaps quote his response? It would no doubt be interesting to many (and not speculative).
 

Peregrine 4903

Established Member
Joined
18 Aug 2019
Messages
1,504
Location
London
I don't believe rail cuts of the magnitude that is required now is anything like as difficult to achieve as it is being made out by the railway professionals to whom it is in their interests not to make them. They are pretty adept at producing temporary (reduced) schedules for other emergencies. If they were a private company haemorrhaging cash at the current rate, ways of reducing service and costs would have been found long ago.

From this forum we have been told that revenue is down 75-90%. Passengers may not be down quite so much, as the loss of passengers has more than likely been in the higher revenue brackets. This would seem to indicate a larger cut (50%+) would be more appropriate, so only having to make 20% at this stage is getting off quite lightly. Revenue will be more important than passenger numbers to the Treasury.

The Rail industry is going to have to reduce services, and reduce the costs of the services it does operate; a painful time is coming. The market is unlikely to recover to pre-Covid levels for a long time, People have discovered WFH and have realised that the number of other journeys are not so necessary, and anyway are often more convenient by private transport (on roads not so congested for the same reasons)

Timetables are much easier to compile if there are substantially fewer trains running, and some of the cuts will not be pretty to start with. Some will be 'unpopular', but then trains as a whole are not exactly popular at the moment, if the revenue figures are anything to go by. Start with peak time extras on commuter lines, frequencies in general, esp. long distance express trains and lines with overlapping trains resulting in 'overtraining' and evening services in general.

You make a very good point regarding voters and how the railway has become a much less 'politically' important.
You can easily make cuts to services, by simply removing them from the timetable.

However recasting the timetable to accomodate for the reduced services and make things clockface, that's what takes a large amount of time.
 

jfisher21

Member
Joined
21 Mar 2011
Messages
218
I guess the Waterloo - Poole stoppers could go, redistribute the stops between the 2 Weymouth fasts. Add Fleet to the Portsmouth Via Basingstoke Service.

Great Northern could terminate at Huntingdon and have hourly LNER stops from there to Peterborough

There could be extra stops on the Marylebone - Birmingham route with a few short terminating trains removed.

Paddington - Oxford, maybe just one per hour needed, all to continue to Worcester / Hereford / Great Malvern as there is good service from Marylebone.
 
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