If one of the major preserved railways failed?

[Ashley Hill]

This to me illustrates though why Heritage Railways need individuals experienced in very specific parts of the business (for example retail or catering) to ensure the railway does not become a hostage to fortune.

I don’t know if that firm has the contract for 2023. I hope not!

 

[IanXC]

Particularly following the incidents relating to Mark 1 coaches I can't help but think there is a key role for the Heritage Railway Association here. There is particularly problem of managing risk and the potential reputational risk associated (what if that child *had* fallen through the missing toilet floor?) but also opportunity to cut costs.

A HRA Shared Services company could:
- Define maintenance standards and produce manuals etc (as per the Mark 1 incident recommendations)
- Provide consultancy services and inspection/accreditation services
- Provide website services including booking engines etc
- Negotiate national contracts for various services, eg card processing machines, waste disposal, legionaries checks etc etc
- Negotiate supply contracts for materials including everything from pandrol clips to brasso
- And so on and so on

All that would enable individual railways to obtain better, for less, while allowing their volunteers to focus on what they actually want to do rather than all the sundry tasks, while also firming up the safety standards and protecting against the kind of catastrophic safety incident which would surely be a major crisis for any railway.

 

[Flying Phil]

Whilst I agree that one or two smaller operations may fail, I doubt that there will be a major HR failure. I think there is now a far better understanding of the various funding methods and benefits of HRs to an area so support is obtainable from a range of sources.
Obviously there is also the question of reduced numbers of volunteers, but I suspect that in part is due to the success of Heritage railways. There are now more railways open, for longer hours than ever before (Although Covid has had a significant effect, as has coal price/availability). Thus, whilst there may be fewer volunteers per railway, overall, the numbers of volunteers may actually be greater - also the number of active over 60's is increasing as population demographics show.
It must be significant that there are several railways that are still expanding, despite the difficulties, so the sector is healthier than some on here seem to think.
Yes I am an optimist - but I can recall reading that there were too many lines opening and there would be failures......back in the 80's, 90's and so on!

 

[WAB]

Yes I am an optimist - but I can recall reading that there were too many lines opening and there would be failures......back in the 80's, 90's and so on!

As far back as the 1950s, with concerns on the Talyllyn about the Ffestiniog poaching volunteers!

 

[Titfield]

Particularly following the incidents relating to Mark 1 coaches I can't help but think there is a key role for the Heritage Railway Association here. There is particularly problem of managing risk and the potential reputational risk associated (what if that child *had* fallen through the missing toilet floor?) but also opportunity to cut costs.

A HRA Shared Services company could:
- Define maintenance standards and produce manuals etc (as per the Mark 1 incident recommendations)
- Provide consultancy services and inspection/accreditation services
- Provide website services including booking engines etc
- Negotiate national contracts for various services, eg card processing machines, waste disposal, legionaries checks etc etc
- Negotiate supply contracts for materials including everything from pandrol clips to brasso
- And so on and so on

All that would enable individual railways to obtain better, for less, while allowing their volunteers to focus on what they actually want to do rather than all the sundry tasks, while also firming up the safety standards and protecting against the kind of catastrophic safety incident which would surely be a major crisis for any railway.

These sorts of arrangements (often proposed by trade bodies) do not often find favour or widespread adoption. Individual organisations feel that such arrangements entail losing a measure of their independence and control of their own destiny.

If there is an approved supplier for widgets at a published price, then this simply enables a purchaser to use this as a bargaining chip when dealing with an alternative supplier.

 

[Paul Hitchcock]

IMHO it is more likely the longer lines will not be as fortunate as the shorter ones. Both the Dartmouth and the IOWSR have recovered rapidly from Covid but have little else in common save moderate route mileages.

 

[paul1609]

IMHO it is more likely the longer lines will not be as fortunate as the shorter ones. Both the Dartmouth and the IOWSR have recovered rapidly from Covid but have little else in common save moderate route mileages.

What both the IOWSR and the Dartmouth do have in common is that they are both niche examples that you couldn't really replicate elsewhere.
The IOWSR with its captive holiday island market and the Dartmouth that exists in the middle of a major holiday resort operated by a multi discipline paid staff that also run the ferries.

 

[Paul Hitchcock]

What both the IOWSR and the Dartmouth do have in common is that they are both niche examples that you couldn't really replicate elsewhere.
The IOWSR with its captive holiday island market and the Dartmouth that exists in the middle of a major holiday resort operated by a multi discipline paid staff that also run the ferries.

There is absolutely nothing preventing anywhere emulating either of these places as visitor attractions. Dartmouth does not even have a great deal of ancient rolling stock. Both have seen business bounce back to pre Covid levels. Naturally, future trends are uncertain.

 

[Titfield]

What both the IOWSR and the Dartmouth do have in common is that they are both niche examples that you couldn't really replicate elsewhere.
The IOWSR with its captive holiday island market and the Dartmouth that exists in the middle of a major holiday resort operated by a multi discipline paid staff that also run the ferries.

The IOWSR benefits from, to all intents purposes, being a single location site with, once arrived, a captive audience. All the "attraction" is concentrated on one site.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

There is absolutely nothing preventing anywhere emulating either of these places as visitor attractions. Dartmouth does not even have a great deal of ancient rolling stock. Both have seen business bounce back to pre Covid levels. Naturally, future trends are uncertain.

Which may be why they are financially successful? Only the amount of rolling stock, particularly expensive steam locomotives, needed to run the business and no rotting distractions soaking up cash. Which, essentially, is what some preservationists set out to do - re-open a closed branch line and run it as a service. Do other preserved lines regularly pay dividends to shareholders?

 

[Paul Hitchcock]

Which may be why they are financially successful? Only the amount of rolling stock, particularly expensive steam locomotives, needed to run the business and no rotting distractions soaking up cash. Which, essentially, is what some preservationists set out to do - re-open a closed branch line and run it as a service. Do other preserved lines regularly pay dividends to shareholders?

Well I understand that Mk 1s are getting increasingly costly to maintain. However, Dartmouth do not run oversized motive power. It is not a museum line unlike the IOWSR which is an Arts Council Accredited Museum.

 

[eldomtom2]

The IOWSR benefits from, to all intents purposes, being a single location site with, once arrived, a captive audience. All the "attraction" is concentrated on one site.

Yet in this very thread we have people saying the opposite, that preserved railways benefit if there's something else for the passengers to do at the other end.

 

[Titfield]

Yet in this very thread we have people saying the opposite, that preserved railways benefit if there's something else for the passengers to do at the other end.

Because in practical terms it is "the other end". Passengers come in from Smallbrook Junction or come straight to Havenstreet to enjoy all the attractions.

 

[paul1609]

Because in practical terms it is "the other end". Passengers come in from Smallbrook Junction or come straight to Havenstreet to enjoy all the attractions.

Ive studied the IOWSR business model with their co-operation to see if there's any lessons to be learned. It's actually surprising how few of their customers join at Smallbrook Junction. It's overwhelmingly accessed by road at Haven Street.

 

[Gloster]

Ive studied the IOWSR business model with their co-operation to see if there's any lessons to be learned. It's actually surprising how few of their customers join at Smallbrook Junction. It's overwhelmingly accessed by road at Haven Street.

Although there is a car park at Wootton, there are rarely many cars there. I suspect that the main users are the congregation at the local Methodist Church.

 

[Techniquest]

Yet in this very thread we have people saying the opposite, that preserved railways benefit if there's something else for the passengers to do at the other end.

Which is usually how it is. The IoW steam line appears to be a special thing, an exception. Like people who wouldn't even think about alcohol at 6am normally, but who will rush to the airport bar because they're on holiday. Perhaps a slightly similar thing applies on the IoW, I don't know. It's been more than 10 years since I did the IoW line and I wasn't terribly impressed by it. I had more fun on the 1938 stock, although I must say in that 10 and something years I do just about everything differently now, and active travel is a high priority, perhaps it's time to return and spend more than a day on the island. There's a good chance I'd enjoy the line this time!

What's the cycle parking like at Wootton or Haven Street?

 

[Gloster]

What's the cycle parking like at Wootton or Haven Street?

There is plenty of space at Wootton, but how safe it is I know not. I never go to Haven Street as I frequently nearly get knocked down by the maniacs whizzing along the road to it when I am walking to the bus stop.

 

[paul1609]

Which is usually how it is. The IoW steam line appears to be a special thing, an exception. Like people who wouldn't even think about alcohol at 6am normally, but who will rush to the airport bar because they're on holiday. Perhaps a slightly similar thing applies on the IoW, I don't know. It's been more than 10 years since I did the IoW line and I wasn't terribly impressed by it. I had more fun on the 1938 stock, although I must say in that 10 and something years I do just about everything differently now, and active travel is a high priority, perhaps it's time to return and spend more than a day on the island. There's a good chance I'd enjoy the line this time!

What's the cycle parking like at Wootton or Haven Street?

Theres an undercover area at Haven Street. Haven Street station is only about 3 miles from the car ferry terminal at Fishbourne. I cycled there once for a meeting when the railway was closed. It took me about 20 mins

 

[Gloster]

Theres an undercover area at Haven Street. Haven Street station is only about 3 miles from the car ferry terminal at Fishbourne. I cycled there once for a meeting when the railway was closed. It took me about 20 mins

But, as I said above, beware of the lunatic drivers on that road.

 

[Techniquest]

There is plenty of space at Wootton, but how safe it is I know not. I never go to Haven Street as I frequently nearly get knocked down by the maniacs whizzing along the road to it when I am walking to the bus stop.

Thanks! I think for the couple of hours I'd be away from Wootton, it would probably be OK. Also good to know that about the fools on the roads, something to bear in mind!

Theres an undercover area at Haven Street. Haven Street station is only about 3 miles from the car ferry terminal at Fishbourne. I cycled there once for a meeting when the railway was closed. It took me about 20 mins

Ooh, Fishbourne isn't a ferry route I've considered. This is something to bear in mind for future planning!

But, as I said above, beware of the lunatic drivers on that road.

I suspect this warning could apply to almost every road, everywhere in existence!

 

[Ashley Hill]

Which may be why they are financially successful? Only the amount of rolling stock, particularly expensive steam locomotives, needed to run the business and no rotting distractions soaking up cash. Which, essentially, is what some preservationists set out to do - re-open a closed branch line and run it as a service. Do other preserved lines regularly pay dividends to shareholders?

Of course it shouldn’t be forgotten that the T&DSR as the Dart Valley Railway Co. is a business and in its own right,and yet got rid of the Buckfastleigh line back in the early 90s. Thankfully the Dumbleton Hall society being a charity was able to lease the line and later purchased it.

 

[Titfield]

Ive studied the IOWSR business model with their co-operation to see if there's any lessons to be learned. It's actually surprising how few of their customers join at Smallbrook Junction. It's overwhelmingly accessed by road at Haven Street.

Yes the point I was making is that the IOWSR "concentrates" the appeal (apart from the ride itself) at one central hub. It must surely make it easier to run one focal point (shop, cafe, Train Story, Falconry (run by third party)) than dissipating the effort over multiple locations.

Harmans Cross Station on the Swanage Railway is a beautiful recreation of a station which is lovingly maintained by an enthusiastic band of volunteers who devote a lot of time and some of their own money. But comparatively few passengers board / alight here and one does wonder if the effort would be better put in at say Swanage or Corfe Castle Station.

Each railway has its own business model but you cant help but feel there are some basic principles which have to be observed. I genuinely have concerns about railways with large stretches of track to maintain, trying to restore / maintain larger fleets of locos and carriages than perhaps needed, maintaining buildings etc. Providing there is a decent run (say 5 miles of track) is small beautiful?

 

[paul1609]

Yes the point I was making is that the IOWSR "concentrates" the appeal (apart from the ride itself) at one central hub. It must surely make it easier to run one focal point (shop, cafe, Train Story, Falconry (run by third party)) than dissipating the effort over multiple locations.

Harmans Cross Station on the Swanage Railway is a beautiful recreation of a station which is lovingly maintained by an enthusiastic band of volunteers who devote a lot of time and some of their own money. But comparatively few passengers board / alight here and one does wonder if the effort would be better put in at say Swanage or Corfe Castle Station.

Each railway has its own business model but you cant help but feel there are some basic principles which have to be observed. I genuinely have concerns about railways with large stretches of track to maintain, trying to restore / maintain larger fleets of locos and carriages than perhaps needed, maintaining buildings etc. Providing there is a decent run (say 5 miles of track) is small beautiful?

It probably is but you are very much at the mercy of the geographic circumstances. My railway for instance runs from Tenterden the railways historic 'major" station and the market town to Bodiam for the National Trust Castle there. About 85% of our passengers join at Tenterden and just over 35% of our passengers visit the castle. Its 11 miles. If you tried to emulate the IOWSR model. You'd centre the railway at Northiam and have it shuffle 5 miles along the Rother levels. Yes it would reduce the costs but would be a fairly remote station and would it attract the same number of visitors as the current set up, probably not. The remote location wouldn't help with volunteer recruitment either. One of the reasons we have much higher than average number of younger volunteers is that initially they walk or cycle to Tenterden or Rolvenden.

 

[Flying Phil]

Several people have commented on the presence of unrestored or seemingly unused rolling stock (Often goods wagons) on some/many? railways. It should be remembered that often grants etc have been awarded and Charitable status assisted by a strong "Educational remit" and, as railways were originally built for the movement of freight - to eradicate such stock would lead to a partial failure to adhere to such an educational remit. Obviously though, I hope that the stock is being restored and operated sometimes.

 

[Titfield]

It probably is but you are very much at the mercy of the geographic circumstances. My railway for instance runs from Tenterden the railways historic 'major" station and the market town to Bodiam for the National Trust Castle there. About 85% of our passengers join at Tenterden and just over 35% of our passengers visit the castle. Its 11 miles. If you tried to emulate the IOWSR model. You'd centre the railway at Northiam and have it shuffle 5 miles along the Rother levels. Yes it would reduce the costs but would be a fairly remote station and would it attract the same number of visitors as the current set up, probably not. The remote location wouldn't help with volunteer recruitment either. One of the reasons we have much higher than average number of younger volunteers is that initially they walk or cycle to Tenterden or Rolvenden.

Yes the "Board" has to decide what business model they are going to follow taking into all the influencing factors and all being well should come up with the right answer.

The challenge I suspect many Hrs will face is that, due to the high level of fixed costs, cutting services / operating days / using diesel and not steam traction may actually reduce revenue more than it cuts costs and thus the railway is in a worse financial position.

 

[Thebaz]

I don't think anyone 'invests' in heritage lines. The fastest way to a small fortune is to make a very large one and then start buying railway assets.

Well, yes 'invests' was probably the wrong word there lol

 

[railfan99]

Having visisted a number of your heritage railways from overseas, and then later examined the latest (though dated) annual reports through the Companies House website, it struck me as over the top that WSR has a General Manager and an Operations Manager.

For the revenue it brings in, it struck me that this railway has too many non-mechanical/tracklaying paid staff. Otherwise, I enjoyed it a lot: the best one (with East Lancs) that I've done so far. Better than NYMR I thought.

Surely there is scope for a railway like this to reduce overheads in the white collar area?

 

[bramling]

The IOWSR benefits from, to all intents purposes, being a single location site with, once arrived, a captive audience. All the "attraction" is concentrated on one site.

The other similarity between IOW and Dartmouth is they’re both in the middle of a market where there is a higher than typical supply of pensioners, that being one group seemingly less touched by cost of living issues.

 

[Titfield]

Having visisted a number of your heritage railways from overseas, and then later examined the latest (though dated) annual reports through the Companies House website, it struck me as over the top that WSR has a General Manager and an Operations Manager.

For the revenue it brings in, it struck me that this railway has too many non-mechanical/tracklaying paid staff. Otherwise, I enjoyed it a lot: the best one (with East Lancs) that I've done so far. Better than NYMR I thought.

Surely there is scope for a railway like this to reduce overheads in the white collar area?

I suspect that the ORR would be concerned at any reduction in white collar staff if that was accompanied by a reduction in ensuring compliance.

On some heritage railways there are paid staff now doing the job of what was formerly undertaken by volunteers because the HR can not attract enough volunteers for that role. Examples being reservations staff, ticket office staff and TTIs (Travelling Ticket Inspectors).

 

[railfan99]

On some heritage railways there are paid staff now doing the job of what was formerly undertaken by volunteers because the HR can not attract enough volunteers for that role. Examples being reservations staff, ticket office staff and TTIs (Travelling Ticket Inspectors).

If I lived near a heritage railway, being a TTI or booking office clerk would be enjoyable roles.