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If overhead line equipment is damaged by a bird, could a TOC be responsible if the bird was small?

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thejuggler

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Just heard Mr Shapps on R4.

Is it true that the organisation (TOC or NR) responsible for repairs on overhead wires due to bird strikes depends on how big the bird was?
 
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swt_passenger

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Just heard Mr Shapps on R4.

Is it true that the organisation (TOC or NR) responsible for repairs on overhead wires due to bird strikes depends on how big the bird was?
I very much doubt a TOC is ever responsible for the repairs to OHLE. Is it possible bird strikes are divided somehow into normal or unusual for delay responsibility purposes?
 

DarloRich

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I think shapps ( or whatever name he is using this week) is simply setting the ground for the William's review. All of these statements are made in knowledge of the recommendations in that report

Whatever he talks aboit gives a clue to the contents of the report........
 

68000

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A bird strike on the infrastructure will always be the responsibility of NR. A bird strike on the train (including pantograph but excluding the interface to the OHL) is the responsibility of the TOC
 

daikilo

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A bird strike on the infrastructure will always be the responsibility of NR. A bird strike on the train (including pantograph but excluding the interface to the OHL) is the responsibility of the TOC

I believe big birds hitting the train are not TOC. Also, surely a pantograph running wild and destroying the OHLE is TOC. Don't know who covers a big bird hitting a pantograph making it run wild.
 

AM9

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... Also, surely a pantograph running wild and destroying the OHLE is TOC. ...
A 'pantograph running wild' wouldn't be an adequate description for determining whether the OLE was outside permissable limits or the pantograph was (or both). Once that had been done, attribution to NR and or the TOC can be made.
 

hwl

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I believe big birds hitting the train are not TOC. Also, surely a pantograph running wild and destroying the OHLE is TOC. Don't know who covers a big bird hitting a pantograph making it run wild.
I can't remember precisely what the size cut of is - pigeon? but pheasant is certainly NR's "fault".
 

thejuggler

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Merle Haggard

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Although I admit I haven't ploughed through the document helpfully linked, in my recollection from the past the size of an animal that causes damage to a train or infrastructure is relevant to where blame lies.

A large animal should be prevented from getting on to tracks by fencing, and if it does so and is then hit by a train, then clearly the fence is faulty and Network Rail, being responsible for the fence, are responsible for the resulting costs.

A fence will not stop small animals (they can climb over or crawl through) or birds (except ostriches maybe) from reaching the tracks so if they are hit by a train the train operator has to pick up the costs. Larger animals are more likely to have owners than small ones, too.

As an aside, there have been arguments around the size of the animal in the usual buck-passing way.

I think that this principle may have been incompletely understood or stretched beyond reason to make a point. Not unusual...
 

Bald Rick

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The DAG is clear. As @68000 says. Bird strikes train is always a TOC responsibility, regardless of bird size.

The exception is if the strike is at the traction electrical interface, ie pan carbon to OLE, or shoe to Con rail, in which case it is NRs. The former is much more prevalent than the latter.
 

Spartacus

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I can't remember precisely what the size cut of is - pigeon? but pheasant is certainly NR's "fault".

A pheasant used to be the cut off point, same size or smaller than a pheasant was operator responsibility, larger than a pheasant, NR’s. I suspect a pheasant was chosen as they’re pretty distinguishable, even the females, but from an ornithological point of view it was a terrible choice as the size can vary considerably, weighing between 750g and 1700g according to the RSPB.

Some recent changes though mean that now any bird would be the operator’s responsibility but I expect if it was a large flightless bird such as an emu or ostrich there might be an inclination to class it as an ‘animal’ rather than a ‘bird’, I know it would be my view. That would result in it being classed as an infrastructure (fencing) fault until proven otherwise.

That doesn’t change the fact that an ‘interface’ strike would still be NR’s.
 
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PaulLothian

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I can imagine a very interesting delay attribution debate in relation to a swan collision. Should such incidents not be brought to the Queen's attention? She can't have all the privileges of swan ownership and none of the responsibility!
 

QueensCurve

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Thanks for the link. Having had a very quick look my initial thoughts that he was talking BS were correct. What a surprise.

There are enough things wrong with railway operations without resorting to stuff which is made up.

We are talking about Shant Grapps here. His relationship with the truth is somewhat distant and always has been.
 
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