If you could make just one infrastructure improvement in Manchester…

[LOL The Irony]

Why on earth would you do that?

In the event you can't do the other two.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Ordsall Lane flyover, to remove conflicting movements Victoria - Chat Moss and Oxford Road - Salford Crescent. There are some drawings around and the only problem might be the gradients required to avoid the road bridges.

Demolish and rebuild them to fit in with the rail infrastructure.

 

[MattRat]

Tram trains. I know you could technically call it more than one project, but it would also come under one roof of converting as many commuter routes as possible (the first ones that comes to mind are the Southport line trains), into tram trains, so they can be diverted off the mainline and onto the tram tracks when they enter Manchester, to free up mainline tracks in Manchester.

 

[The Planner]

In the event you can't do the other two.

Clearly I am missing something then, as how does making people change trains to get to Manchester improve anything whatsoever just to stop a conflict at Slade Lane? The priority of flows and passengers is all wrong.

 

[AGH]

Five platforms at Salford Central renaming it to Manchester Spinningfields. Huge amount of development over there and needs a much improved facility.

Westbound exit to Trafford Park. Help alleviate congestion.

Bi directional passing loops at Irlam and Eccles (3rd platform reinstated). Connect sidings at Warrington Central at both ends to build in redundancy.

All platforms lengthened to six carriages.

Cheap and doable now.

 

[The Planner]

Five platforms at Salford Central renaming it to Manchester Spinningfields. Huge amount of development over there and needs a much improved facility.

Westbound exit to Trafford Park. Help alleviate congestion.

Bi directional passing loops at Irlam and Eccles (3rd platform reinstated). Connect sidings at Warrington Central at both ends to build in redundancy.

All platforms lengthened to six carriages.

Cheap and doable now.

Where is the Westbound traffic going from Trafford Park?

 

[jfollows]

What would Stockport solve?

Whilst having the ability to terminate trains and Stockport and reverse them there would improve operational convenience and sometimes help with recovery from disruption, and it would also have made last Sunday's workings easier (trains having to reverse over Stockport viaduct or go to Longsight and back), I agree with The Planner that this is also potentially putting the operation of the railways in front of passenger service. At the moment the Cardiff-Manchester services frequently get reversed at Wilmslow anyway, when they're running late as they often do, and although I've not been at the station when this happens it's usually a cross-platform change from platform 2 to platform 3 for the onward journey - annoying but could be worse. The only platform at Stockport with running signals at both ends is platform 1, so the Stalybridge-Stockport-Stalybridge service is booked to reverse there. But Stockport works well most of the time, and some of the proposed "improvements" actually make things worse for passengers.
Sos, to answer the question, it doesn't really solve anything much, but it makes things appear better perhaps, and allows some things which aren't possible today which will of course sometimes be useful.

 

[AGH]

CLC and then reverse at Edge Hill. Seen a lot worse freight routes.

 

[jfollows]

Where is the Westbound traffic going from Trafford Park?

Bring back the Fallowfield loop for the one train a day which used to use it for a Trafford Park to Holyhead freightliner when it existed, which went around the houses and through Manchester Victoria after leaving Trafford Park at about 17:30.
Maybe not.

 

[The Planner]

CLC and then reverse at Edge Hill. Seen a lot worse freight routes.

Adds shed loads of time into the schedules and 775m trains crossing over at South Parkway. No thanks.

 

[zwk500]

Where is the Westbound traffic going from Trafford Park?

Build a link from Glazebrook to the Chat Moss at Lowton.

 

[tbtc]

Don't most services from the Bolton side go via the direct line to Vic nearer the A6 and not down the Windsor Link then left to Vic per the Chat Moss ones?

There’s two services an hour from Blackpool to Castlefield plus I understand that Southport has one too (?)

There’s three services an hour from Chat Moss to Victoria (two TPE plus the Chester to Calder Valley)

So three trains an hour connecting with three trains an hour based on just those two corridors

However if you diverted the Bolton/ Atherton - Victoria services that way too (as you mentioned) then that’s going to allow interchange between about half a dozen (?) Bolton/Atherton - Victoria services an hour and the services from Cumbria/ Llandudno/ Liverpool to Castlefield

It’s hard to know what the timetables/ service patterns will be, to plan future infrastructure around, given the various uncertainties at the moment, but hopefully the above numbers makes sense (e.g. I’ve not counted the Scottish services as I doubt they’d stop there)

However the important bit is what happens next. If passengers are used to having a reliable interchange with a frequent enough service to Victoria/ Castlefield/ Piccadilly/ Airport (where they can change trains without the bustle of 13/14) then it begins to be a lot easier to sell the idea of simplifying service patterns around Manchester.

For example, you could run all Wigan or Chat Moss services to Victoria if the minority of passengers wanting Castlefield/ Piccadilly/ Airport could depend on good connections at Salford

Or, rather, without doing something to convince people in the north west of England that changing trains doesn’t need to be as stressful as the 13/14 experience then we seem condemned to a future where we simply “must” have various pairs of stations linked together every hour, causing reliability problems, a timetable with little resilience and lots of unbalanced service patterns (e.g. if you need to have Bolton to Castlefield and Bolton to Victoria and Chat Moss to Castlefield and Chat Moss to Victoria then there are bound to be some bunching of trains on each corridor and therefore awkward and unattractive gaps)

Obviously there’s already a free bus service from Victoria to Piccadilly and a regular tram service and direct trains via the expensive Chord (and twenty trams an hour from Victoria to Castlefield), but this doesn’t seem to be enough to wean people off direct services

 

[Bletchleyite]

Obviously there’s already a free bus service from Victoria to Piccadilly and a regular tram service and direct trains via the expensive Chord (and twenty trams an hour from Victoria to Castlefield), but this doesn’t seem to be enough to wean people off direct services

Understandably, because from the west all of those add about 10-20 minutes to the journey, meaning you have to get up earlier for your commute!

I've said before I wouldn't have built Ordsall, it has done very little good and lots of bad. As noted above I think the Ardwick/Stadium chord would have been more useful by allowing long distance services to enter Manchester from the north and west and terminate at Piccadilly main trainshed serving Vic as well. Yes, the northern trainshed is a bit crowded at the moment if Avanti and XC ran their full service, but post HS2 they won't be, and if Hadfield and/or Rose Hill is Metrolinked P1/2 will be barely used.

But yes, I agree with the idea of quality interchange, ideally the new station would be two islands to allow for cross platform interchange between the two in both directions. I've always thought to do it at Salford Crescent, but if you add in the Chat Moss services as well then that means you don't need to time things to connect because it's probably frequent enough, and with Salford Crescent you'd have the complexity of moving the signalling centre covering a large chunk of the North West to fit the new island in, which is more than a little bit risky.

 

[tbtc]

I've said before I wouldn't have built Ordsall, it has done very little good and lots of bad

It’s far from perfect, and I agree that it has caused new problems

But there was ever increasing demand for services into Piccadilly until Covid stopped play… just one per hour from stations like Buxton seemed sub-optimal … something needed doing

The Chord meant that the Scarborough to Liverpool service could continue without the need to shut down the entire station throat twice an hour (as it went from the north east of the station approach to the south west platforms and vice versa), the Scarborough to Liverpool service was sped up due to using Chat Moss and I think it’d have been very difficult to remove one of the remaining long distance services from Liverpool (given “politics”), so chopping the service was a non-starter

Talking of politics, there’s the apparent need for a direct service from Leeds to Manchester Airport (I know that we both dispute this, and that the sky hasn’t fallen in in Sheffield since we lost the hourly Airport service that we’ve had since the 1990s, but it’s political).

Previously the half hourly Airport service meant four sets of reversal each hour (and awkward waits for a West Yorkshire path to tie up with an Airport path, meaning long dwells in the main shed platforms which isn’t ideal) - the Chord removed this problem. It did so by pushing extra services onto Castlefield, causing new problems (I’m not pretending it was painless), but the frequent reversals were an issue when it came to maximising capacity at Piccadilly

So if your answer is that we should have built another Piccadilly - Victoria route (albeit one to exclusively benefit those living west of Manchester) then what would happen to the TPE services that the Chord removes from Piccadilly? We’d still have them containing other services? Or you think you could get away with cutting one of the few long distance services to Liverpool? Or you’d have the Scarborough - Liverpool running via Victoria/ Chat Moss but none of the other TPE services using Victoria, leaving some big gaps in the fast services? Would you have gone for the double whammy of removing the Airport link too and terminating the Newcastle/ Middlesbrough services in the main shed?

(I’ve said Scarborough above because that’s the service pattern that applied at the time, it’s currently Newcastle trains that run through to Liverpool , and who knows what the timetable will be in a couple of years… but the important thing is that it’s an hourly service from York to Merseyside)

 

[mike57]

Most of the problems in the Manchester area come back to Castlefield and Manchester Piccadilly platform 13/14.

To me the problems are:

• Nowhere for trains from the west and north to terminate at Piccadilly, which means trains carry on to the airport because its the only logical place available.
• Conflicts at the main station mouth for stuff coming off Plat 13/14 and continuing east or south
• Victoria is a ghastly station, now hemmed in, and unsuited to any sort of regional/intercity service

So a complete rethink, concentrating on making Piccadilly less of a problem, OP didn't give a budget, just hands off Victoria and no demolition (I have assumed demolition of cabins to the north and loss of car parking to the north of Piccadilly isnt ruled out as I think its network rail land):

Construct bay platforms over the taxi rank in the triangle between 13 and the main station. If need be take away part of 11&12. Create two new platforms to the north of the current Plat 1, there is room with just some parking and what looks like network rail portakabins.

North Wales, Anglo Scottish and Windermere/Barrow services now terminate at Piccadilly
All TPE north services now terminate in low numbers platforms routed via Guide Bridge, with just one Liverpool - Newcastle per hour routed via Victoria, nothing carries on to the Airport
TPE south also continue to terminate at Piccadilly
Airport becomes a dedicated shuttle, with 2tph extended to Stalybridge via Ordsal and Victoria, also taking over existing Victoria - Stalybridge local services
Only Regional service through 13/14 is now Norwich - Nottingham - Liverpool.

Its not an ideal solution, there will still be a lot of local services using the congested Castlefield area, but they will be either terminating at Piccadilly or local stuff, so less likelyhood of importing or exporting delays out of the area.

There would be whinging from TPE north, but service is and has been totally unreliable anyway, so really running everything into Piccadilly and no further makes sense, a simple change at Piccadilly would be well signed with next Airport train indicators, and hopefully without an internal gate line, which just causes issues when dealing with a high proportion of passengers with a lot of luggage.

Platform 13/14 load would be reduced as Regional services would be using new bay platforms

 

[Bletchleyite]

Isn't the space to the north of P1/2 going to be the HS2 station?

Talking of politics, there’s the apparent need for a direct service from Leeds to Manchester Airport (I know that we both dispute this, and that the sky hasn’t fallen in in Sheffield since we lost the hourly Airport service that we’ve had since the 1990s, but it’s political).

It's this that I think it was really built for, and yes, we both agree it's nonsensical. The tail needs to stop wagging the dog of TPE - a change on the flat to a dedicated shuttle at Picc (or even to P13/14) isn't hard and is a shorter walk than you have at the airport.

So if your answer is that we should have built another Piccadilly - Victoria route (albeit one to exclusively benefit those living west of Manchester)

It would benefit Castlefield by removing 3 long distance services per hour (Barrow/Windermere, Scotland, TfW) from it, and allowing what remains there to be simpler and more consistent so it all works a bit more smoothly, plus allowing a small increase in the CLC service. S-Bahn, if you like

then what would happen to the TPE services that the Chord removes from Piccadilly? We’d still have them containing other services? Or you think you could get away with cutting one of the few long distance services to Liverpool? Or you’d have the Scarborough - Liverpool running via Victoria/ Chat Moss but none of the other TPE services using Victoria, leaving some big gaps in the fast services? Would you have gone for the double whammy of removing the Airport link too and terminating the Newcastle/ Middlesbrough services in the main shed?

With regard to TPE, my view is that the North express services should be 4tph thus (if this doesn't provide enough capacity lengthen the 802s a bit while the line is still open):

Liverpool-Newcastle via Chat Moss/Vic x2
Piccadilly-Hull
Piccadilly-Middlesbrough
Scarborough as a shuttle from either York or Leeds depending on pathing

Or alternatively one Liverpool-Newcastle and one Liverpool-Scarborough.

Nothing to the Airport at all, it's a waste of stock. Nothing over the Chord; post electrification to Stalyvegas this should be a 2tph Northern EMU stopping service from there to the Airport (providing the connection at both Picc and Vic) but for now I would simply mothball it as Northern doesn't have enough DMUs to do that, nor does TPE have enough staff.

That help?

 

[duncanp]

Bring back the Fallowfield loop for the one train a day which used to use it for a Trafford Park to Holyhead freightliner when it existed, which went around the houses and through Manchester Victoria after leaving Trafford Park at about 17:30.
Maybe not.

I don't think it is worth reinstating a railway line just for one train per day, especially as it would involve closure of a popular cycle and walking route, and the demolition of the Sainsburys supermarket at Fallowfield.

Building an orbital extension to Metrolink starting at St Werbergh's Road, running round the Fallowfield Loop and then joining on to the Ashton Under Lyne route might be worth it, but that is probably just a fantasy.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't think it is worth reinstating a railway line just for one train per day, especially as it would involve closure of a popular cycle and walking route, and the demolition of the Sainsburys supermarket at Fallowfield.

Building an orbital extension to Metrolink starting at St Werbergh's Road, running round the Fallowfield Loop and then joining on to the Ashton Under Lyne route might be worth it, but that is probably just a fantasy.

I would agree Metrolink should be considered for this route (which could mean not losing the cycle route as the tramway can be narrower than a railway) however if we can't knock down Victoria we definitely can't build entire tramways!

 

[jfollows]

I don't think it is worth reinstating a railway line just for one train per day, especially as it would involve closure of a popular cycle and walking route, and the demolition of the Sainsburys supermarket at Fallowfield.

It wasn't a serious suggestion! However it's interesting to note that once it was possible to get out of Trafford Park and head west without having to reverse, even though it was a bit of a long way round.

 

[mike57]

Isn't the space to the north of P1/2 going to be the HS2 station?

I thought the plan was to use the old Mayfield station site

 

[jfollows]

I thought the plan was to use the old Mayfield station site

No, you're thinking of the wrong side of the station; HS2 is going alongside platform 1 to the north/east, Mayfield is in the process of being "redeveloped" for other reasons and is now a trendy foodie place amongst other things.

For example, see https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/detailed-route-of-hs2-into-manchester.44728/

 

[Brubulus]

Splitting 13/14 in 2 along with a new entrance for each extremity from outside the trainshed. The waiting rooms would be taken off the platforms to further increase capacity and make some points changes so that 2 double 185s could be accommodated possibly with 1 door on each train out of use. This would make Castlefield a lot more reliable, reducing dwell times for relatively little cost.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Splitting 13/14 in 2 along with a new entrance for each extremity from outside the trainshed. The waiting rooms would be taken off the platforms to further increase capacity and make some points changes so that 2 double 185s could be accommodated possibly with 1 door on each train out of use. This would make Castlefield a lot more reliable, reducing dwell times for relatively little cost.

While the platforms can't take two double 185s they can take doubles of most of what else operates there by way of the mid platform signal. However platform alterations cause lots of people to be running around in the narrower bits and so cause a safety issue and delays. Therefore I am not convinced that this is worth doing - most of the time it makes sense to operate it as one service at a time.

The waiting rooms were removed ages ago, it's all open now bar the bit under the stairs.

I think there may be value in removing the stairs to 14 and replacing them with a set further back towards 13, making the wide open bit of 14 longer, though. The bridge is being replaced soon so that would be possible. Instead of a separate tunnel to 14, you'd have one, wider tunnel to both, with one lift, and could install an escalator on the 14 side as well as a bonus.

 

[Halifaxlad]

I would reconfigure Manchester Piccadilly.

I would either close/relocate P9& 10 to the North side of the station and rebuild P13 & 14 with the tracks in the middle.

A new elongated concourse connecting into the existing concourse over where P9 &10 used to be!

I would also have ramped access up to the South platform to maintain level access on both sides when lifts are fecked!

 

[Philip]

I would upgrade and electrify the Denton line to allow fast running for services from Salford Crescent and beyond to use it and restore & create new connections to Stockport and beyond, without bringing back the Piccadilly 13/14 - Stockport conflicts. This could work well if the WCML fast tracks are moved to the western side of the line, as mentioned earlier. Perhaps the solution for Levenshulme and Heaton Chapel could be to make both of them one-platform stations, located on the east side (the new up slow line) with a loop from the down slow line?

Half hourly service between Salford-Rochdale/beyond (one from Bolton and one from Atherton), the rest of the Salford-Victoria services can then run towards Stockport and beyond via the upgraded Denton line.

 

[Ken H]

Grade separation of Slade Ln, an additional platform and remodeling of Stockport or Piccadilly 15/16. They're all too important to pick just one so I listed all three.

Its been on the drawing board since SELNEC days. removing conflicts at junction will always improve reliability and increase capacity.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would reconfigure Manchester Piccadilly.

I would either close/relocate P9& 10 to the North side of the station and rebuild P11 &12 with the tracks in the middle.

The north side of the station is where HS2 is going. It's not spare. Were this not the case I'd be suggesting a P0 and P-1 (!) as part of my Ardwick chord proposal.

A new elongated concourse connecting into the existing concourse over where P9 &10 used to be!

Why? What's wrong with the existing concourse? I think it's on a par with Kings Cross as the best in the country, and one of the better ones worldwide.

Victoria needs a concourse (I'd argue it doesn't really have one, just a manky corridor down the side of the tramstop with a couple of shops and old bits in it) but I'd not put that under "infrastructure improvements" but to me there are only really two things wrong with Piccadilly as a station - P13/14 and almost everything about them, and the multiple gatelines which should really be replaced with a single one.

I would also have ramped access up to the South platform to maintain level access on both sides when lifts are fecked!

From 13/14? Where would you put that where it wouldn't reduce passenger capacity on the platform? A second lift would probably be better insurance. And isn't/wasn't there a chairlift on one of the stairways?

 

[Senex]

I would upgrade and electrify the Denton line to allow fast running for services from Salford Crescent and beyond to use it and restore & create new connections to Stockport and beyond, without bringing back the Piccadilly 13/14 - Stockport conflicts. This could work well if the WCML fast tracks are moved to the western side of the line, as mentioned earlier. Perhaps the solution for Levenshulme and Heaton Chapel could be to make both of them one-platform stations, located on the east side (the new up slow line) with a loop from the down slow line?

Half hourly service between Salford-Rochdale/beyond (one from Bolton and one from Atherton), the rest of the Salford-Victoria services can then run towards Stockport and beyond via the upgraded Denton line.

I think the chance to create a fast route from Stockport to Victoria was lost when the Ashton Moss Jn to Droylesden Jn line was closed, leaving just today's very slow route via Crowthorn Jn and Ashton Moss South and North Jns. I suppose the rationale at the time was that the latter route also gave access towards Stalybridge avoiding Guide Bridge from Ashton Moss South Jn to OA&GBJn and the the direct line to Droylesden was a duplicate — but then that eastwards curve was closed, leaving just the westwards route for which the Droylesden line would have been a much better alternative.

But even if the Denton Jn to Droylesden line still existed and even if it were possible to upgrade it to, say, 60 mph all the way, I think it would still be a significantly slower route from Stockport to Salford Crescent via Victoria than Stockport to Salford Crescent via Piccadilly 13/14.

Of course, now we have the marvellous Ordsall Chord you could always have a London-Manchester Victoria-Manchester Piccadilly-London service using an improved East Manchester connection .....

 

[Bartsimho]

From an Outside perspective:

Improve the Deansgate corridor by removing the through platforms at Piccadilly and expanding Oxford Road (maybe a rebuild and some subterranean platforms for those heading towards Warrington and Liverpool) to have all through traffic

 

[Bletchleyite]

From an Outside perspective:

Improve the Deansgate corridor by removing the through platforms at Piccadilly and expanding Oxford Road (maybe a rebuild and some subterranean platforms for those heading towards Warrington and Liverpool) to have all through traffic

No chance. Why would you break interchange?

Closing Deansgate and expanding Oxford Road with a central turnback is generally the quoted proposal for improving that.