• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

If you could open 10 stations in Scotland...

dcsprior

Member
Joined
28 Aug 2012
Messages
832
Location
Edinburgh (Fri-Mon) & London (Tue-Thu)
If you could open 10 stations in Scotland, where would they be?

I'll have a go:

Not requiring new track be built:
  1. Finnieston, Glasgow - re-opening on an existing passenger line
  2. "Stirling Parkway" - on or near the old Bannockburn station on an existing passenger line
  3. Grangemouth - addition of passenger services to freight line (my thread on this)
Requiring new track:
4 & 5. Melrose & Hawick - a fairly modest extension of a successful recently-built-railway​
6 & 7. Ellon & Peterhead - I believe Peterhead is the largest town in Scotland which has no railway station, and Ellon is on the way there​
8. St Andrews - Once the above is done, this is then the next largest town without railway​
9 & 10. Bonnyrigg & Penicuik - Once the above is done, these are then the next largest towns without railway (and one line would pass through both)​
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Joined
10 Jan 2018
Messages
356
Any Glasgow Subway extensions, Eastern Circle or even have a line from Govan Depot to the point where Ayrshire / Inverclyde Lines are located and build an Interchange there.

Problem is how to do a train service with either Inner or Outer Circle then terminate at Ibrox Interchange?
 

Ianigsy

Established Member
Joined
12 May 2015
Messages
1,266
Campbeltown
Machrihanish
Invergarry
Fort Augustus
Drumnadrochit
Grantown-on-Spey
Craigellachie
Stranraer Town
Castle Douglas
Gatehouse of Fleet
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
25,270
Location
Bolton
I assume Balgray doesn't 'count' for the purposes of this thread as this does appear to have consent and funding in place?

There are a small number of top candidates which have previously made some progress and then faltered. Chief among these is Winchburgh. I will assume for your purposes this one also does not 'count'? It has a developer contribution agreed but as yet remains untriggered.

The highest priority one politically excluding those two is probably Newtonhill? The one with the largest residential population catchment is probably Abronhill? Might either feature? Others could include Bonnybridge and Dysart. You've identified Grangemouth and Bannockburn which could fit neatly into that category.
 
Last edited:

waverley47

Member
Joined
17 Apr 2015
Messages
641
Assuming two things to be true, that we aren't allowed to propose new track infrastructure (no new lines) and that we aren't allowed to propose new services (that each station opened has to fit into an existing service pattern) then the list is actually very easy.

1. Winchburgh.

This station has a formal design already agreed, and the mechanisms for funding it exist, but haven't yet been triggered. Slot it into the Dunblane services for an easy 2tph off the bat, with extra calls in the peak time Edinburgh to Glasgows. It's about as easy an opening as you can get.

2-7, in any order.

Abronhill
Bannockburn/Stirling South.
Bonnybridge
Bucksburn or Hilton (Aberdeen North)
Cove
Dysart

These all have a service that could be easily stopped, giving a minimum of 2tph right off the bat. They all exist on lines with a relative degree of timetable flexibility, meaning that you could slow down those services and add in an extra stop in each direction without scuffing turnaround times or needing an extra unit.

The first three all have had planning processes started and paused, meaning they've at least proven to be technically feasible, although not necessarily economically so.

Cove, Dysart and Bucksburn are somewhat reliant on future electrification allowing journey time improvements, so you don't slow down end to end journey times by too much, but they're all possible without.

They're all in economically underproductive areas, which buys you points in the economic growth category. They're all less than thirty minutes journey time from the nearest major city centre station, meaning that they get you points in the connectivity category. They're all in areas with poor to moderate public transport provisions, again boosting connectivity.

The exact ordering is probably inconsequential, but again I'd think it likely that reopening stations on electrified lines is altogether better, as you can reduce journey times at the same time as increasing capacity, so I reckon that Cove and Bucksburn would be the last to happen of the bunch (additionally Aberdeen council are generally seen as being unsupportive of rail infrastructure)

8-10

After those six it gets a bit more nebulous.

Cumnock isn't a terrible site for a station, but any station would be underserved with 1tp2h in each direction. Cumnock itself as a fair old way from Glasgow, and Carlisle just doesn't offer the same economic pull. You run very quickly into the fact that economically, any station would be a basket case, even if it would have very positive scores for connectivity and deprivation.

Grangemouth would be a great place for a station, but it's a terrible site for a station. The infrastructure isn't there in the way it would need to be, with the services going to Glasgow and not Edinburgh. Any services to Glasgow would be significantly slower than just driving to Polmont. The station would be in a terrible site for the town, and you'd need more of an infrastructure intervention than just a simple platform.

Cambus would tick a few boxes, get an even 2tph, but it's not that far to Stirling, and there's not much there to connect with a station.

Newtonhill, north of Stonehaven, would be helpful, and 1tph in each direction would be a good boost to the town, but it's a small place.

Mossend/Ravenscraig would fit nicely in the Glasgow suburban network, but it's a bit uncertain what you'd be building it to serve. Maybe if and when the Ravenscraig redevelopment comes online you could get a station through developer contribution funding, but again it's a bit of a long way from Glasgow.

Portobello would be a nice to have, but seems entirely unnecessary given the patching constraints on the ECML out to Drem. Brunstane, although underutilised, is only fifteen minutes walk away, and it's not like Edinburgh doesn't have an amazing, if slow, bus network. You'd probably only be stopping the North Berwick services there as well, which is still only 1tph because of those same capacity constraints, and 1tph for what would be a city station wouldn't compete with buses to any degree.

Blindwells with a big car park would prove to be busy, but again those same pathing constraints make it difficult, and it's not that far to walk to Prestonpans.

A WCML parkway station at Moffat would again be a nice to have, but you run into pathing constraints and service provision issues very quickly. 1tp2h to each of Edinburgh and Glasgow, if you stopped all TPE trains there, would struggle to make a business case.


Ultimately, my 8-10 would be Cambus, Newtonhill and Mossend/Ravenscraig, simply because they're the easiest to reopen, most likely to not be an economic basket case, and easiest to serve.
 

dcsprior

Member
Joined
28 Aug 2012
Messages
832
Location
Edinburgh (Fri-Mon) & London (Tue-Thu)
I assume Balgray doesn't 'count' for the purposes of this thread as this does appear to have consent and funding in place?

There are a small number of top candidates which have previously made some progress and then faltered. Chief among these is Winchburgh. I will assume for your purposes this one also does not 'count'? It has a developer contribution agreed but as yet remains untriggered.

The highest priority one politically excluding those two is probably Newtonhill? The one with the largest residential population catchment is probably Abronhill? Might either feature? Others could include Bonnybridge and Dysart. You've identified Grangemouth and Bannockburn which could fit neatly into that category.

I hadn't thought of, or heard of Balgray, which is why I didn't include it (and when I looked at a list of towns by population, it's grouped in with Bellshill, which already has a station

Winchburgh for some reason I thought was done already.

You've made me think: combining your list and mine you could very nearly do 10 all on existing lines:

1. Finnieston
2. Bannockburn (which I'd maybe brand "Stirling Parkway")
3, 4, 5 Grangemouth, Bonnybridge, Abronhill
6. Winchburgh
7. Balgray
8. Dysart
9. Newtonhill

To get to 10, I'd add:
10. Cornton
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
104,932
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Unless it's expanded recently, having no station at Cumnock but having one at the village just north of it (I forget the name) struck me as bizarre. Mind you there are plenty of these Beeching-era inconsistencies - keeping the station at Altnabreac open (yes, I know) but not at Halkirk (the only reasonably sized settlement on that entire section of line) strikes me as beyond bizarre.

Actually, here's a suggestion from that - Halkirk. Possibly even consider a west to north Georgemas curve and closing Georgemas Junction (serves basically nothing, just keep the freight terminal) alongside it.
 
Last edited:

waverley47

Member
Joined
17 Apr 2015
Messages
641
I hadn't thought of, or heard of Balgray, which is why I didn't include it (and when I looked at a list of towns by population, it's grouped in with Bellshill, which already has a station

Winchburgh for some reason I thought was done already.

You've made me think: combining your list and mine you could very nearly do 10 all on existing lines:

1. Finnieston
2. Bannockburn (which I'd maybe brand "Stirling Parkway")
3, 4, 5 Grangemouth, Bonnybridge, Abronhill
6. Winchburgh
7. Balgray
8. Dysart
9. Newtonhill

To get to 10, I'd add:
10. Cornton

Finneston is too close to Partick, Charing Cross and Exhibition Centre I'm afraid. You'd struggle to find any business case for it without fudging the numbers incredibly.

Balgray is already being built.

Cornton would be possible, but unlikely to be a positive case for a station 2km from Stirling and Bridge of Allan. If they'd built Stirling Uni closer to the railway, you could probably find a case for it, but it's an area close enough to the centre of Stirling that buses are most certainly the way forward.
 

D6130

Established Member
Joined
12 Jan 2021
Messages
7,345
Location
West Yorkshire/Tuscany
but having one at the village just north of it (I forget the name)
Auchinleck.

Cornton would be possible, but unlikely to be a positive case for a station 2km from Stirling and Bridge of Allan. If they'd built Stirling Uni closer to the railway, you could probably find a case for it, but it's an area close enough to the centre of Stirling that buses are most certainly the way forward.
Also with having trains stopping at Cornton the barrier downtimes at the level crossing there would be a major issue.
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
25,270
Location
Bolton
Mauchline and Cumnock seem like reasonable candidates, albeit Cumnock would just take a lot of existing Auckinleck passengers. Auchterarder suffers from the same issue, if it were built it'd just take most of Gleneagles' passengers. Cornton is a shame but it's really difficult to justify yet another stop if you already have Dunblane - Bridge of Allan - Stirling - Bannockburn - Larbert.
 

waverley47

Member
Joined
17 Apr 2015
Messages
641
One of the suggestions we looked at, and subsequently killed off, while signing off on reopening the Airdrie-Bathgate line was a park and ride station in the industrial estate south of Newbridge. In the end it was a marginal business case and we had to fudge the numbers, but it would be a nice to have.

It would have been served with 2tph, and in the end the circle that we couldn't square that killed it was connecting it into the M9. There would also have been problems with signal placement and sighting at Newbridge junction, which I think were not rectified.
 

dcsprior

Member
Joined
28 Aug 2012
Messages
832
Location
Edinburgh (Fri-Mon) & London (Tue-Thu)
Finneston is too close to Partick, Charing Cross and Exhibition Centre I'm afraid. You'd struggle to find any business case for it without fudging the numbers incredibly.
My thinking here is that The Hydro isn't a Glasgow venue, it's a national venue which happens to be in Glasgow. At present, getting there by rail means either:
  • Exhibition Centre, which whenever there's an event on is maxed out to the point of people having to queue on the street, and which means a walk from Central-QS for anyone from Edinburgh/Stirling/etc
  • a 1.3 mile walk to either Partick or Charing Cross
Cornton would be possible, but unlikely to be a positive case for a station 2km from Stirling and Bridge of Allan. If they'd built Stirling Uni closer to the railway, you could probably find a case for it, but it's an area close enough to the centre of Stirling that buses are most certainly the way forward.
Shuttle bus?

Also with having trains stopping at Cornton the barrier downtimes at the level crossing there would be a major issue.
Why would this be the case? Surely the barrier can be up until the train is ready to depart?
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
25,270
Location
Bolton
Unless it's expanded recently, having no station at Cumnock but having one at the village just north of it (I forget the name) struck me as bizarre. Mind you there are plenty of these Beeching-era inconsistencies - keeping the station at Altnabreac open (yes, I know) but not at Halkirk (the only reasonably sized settlement on that entire section of line) strikes me as beyond bizarre.

Actually, here's a suggestion from that - Halkirk. Possibly even consider a west to north Georgemas curve and closing Georgemas Junction (serves basically nothing, just keep the freight terminal) alongside it.
I would suggest formally closing Fearn and building Evanton, and formally closing Altnabreac and building Halkirk.

However I would also suggest that timetabling would be all but impossible without the closures, and, more importantly, that both closures would face heavy opposition.
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
25,270
Location
Bolton
One of the suggestions we looked at, and subsequently killed off, while signing off on reopening the Airdrie-Bathgate line was a park and ride station in the industrial estate south of Newbridge. In the end it was a marginal business case and we had to fudge the numbers, but it would be a nice to have.

It would have been served with 2tph, and in the end the circle that we couldn't square that killed it was connecting it into the M9. There would also have been problems with signal placement and sighting at Newbridge junction, which I think were not rectified.
I'll add Plains as my suggestion at the other end.
 

D6130

Established Member
Joined
12 Jan 2021
Messages
7,345
Location
West Yorkshire/Tuscany
I would suggest formally closing Fearn and building Evanton, and formally closing Altnabreac and building Halkirk.

However I would also suggest that timetabling would be all but impossible without the closures, and, more importantly, that both closures would face heavy opposition.
Would closing Altnabreac really face heavy opposition? I would think that the two residents closest to the platform might be overjoyed! ;)
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
104,932
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
However I would also suggest that timetabling would be all but impossible without the closures, and, more importantly, that both closures would face heavy opposition.

Would they, though? Altnabreac has been closed for well over a year now (are we into two?) and most people haven't noticed.

Would be fairly easy to get rid of one of Invershin or Culrain, if you wanted another speed-up - they're about 400 yards apart.
 

Transilien

Member
Joined
10 Mar 2024
Messages
422
Location
Ayrshire
A new station south of Kilmarnock at the village of Hurlford might work if the frequency was improved.
 

waverley47

Member
Joined
17 Apr 2015
Messages
641
A new station south of Kilmarnock at the village of Hurlford might work if the frequency was improved.

That's the issue with threads like these, we very quickly start to see creeping scopes

If this thread is about "you have twenty million for three new stations, where are you putting them?" then we have to assume that service levels and infrastructure stays the same.

One of the problems we faced with all proposals for opening new stations is such. A station opening has to wash it's face with the exact same services running in the exact same paths. Where can you take a 2tph service and add in an extra stop to serve a new area, without requiring extra units or train crew or enhanced infrastructure (new lines or crossovers or resignalling)

Somewhere like Cumnock or Ayr South, while great on paper, quickly becomes a basket case when you realise that 1tp2h isn't enough to attract anyone to use it. Reston fell into this problem, being approved before the paths were there to serve it properly.

Our general rule of thumb was not to approve any station that would be served by less than 1tph in each direction, ideally 2tph, being less than 30 minutes from a main city centre station, and with an existing service that you can add stops into without needing a timetable rewrite.
 

The exile

Established Member
Joined
31 Mar 2010
Messages
5,054
Location
Somerset
But surely that's something that can be changed (and relatively cheaply, when compared to the cost of building new lines which some of the other suggestions would require)?
Not if the crossing is right off the platform end. Unless you’ve got a massively long platform and short trains, you’re going to have to move either the platform or the crossing, neither of which is going to come in cheap - especially if the platform change triggers accessibility improvements (which are of course a good thing - but don’t come cheap).
 

dcsprior

Member
Joined
28 Aug 2012
Messages
832
Location
Edinburgh (Fri-Mon) & London (Tue-Thu)
Not if the crossing is right off the platform end. Unless you’ve got a massively long platform and short trains, you’re going to have to move either the platform or the crossing, neither of which is going to come in cheap - especially if the platform change triggers accessibility improvements (which are of course a good thing - but don’t come cheap).
I was thinking the new station would go somewhere like this:
1736534777501.png

Blue = new station
Lime green = footbridge replacing pedestrian-only level crossing
Red/yellow arrow = level crossing. If the platforms were 200m long, then this level crossing would be 380m from the northern end of the platform
 

newguy

Member
Joined
5 Apr 2019
Messages
56
How about reopening the bridge of weir / kilmacolm line

also an extension to Strathaven would be good as well
 

Farigiraf

Member
Joined
23 Jul 2023
Messages
474
Location
Bridge on the river Cam
Alloa - Dunfermline rail link:
1. Kincardine
2. Clackmannan
3. Dunfermline West / South
Lines north of Aberdeen:
4. Ellon
5. Peterhead
6. Fraserburgh
Borders Line:
7. Melrose
8. St Boswells
9. Hawick
Additionally:
10. Stranraer Town/Central
 

D6130

Established Member
Joined
12 Jan 2021
Messages
7,345
Location
West Yorkshire/Tuscany
also an extension to Strathaven would be good as well
Sadly never likely to happen as it would involve the replacement of two large demolished viaducts and - at Stonehouse and Strathaven - and a comprehensive rebuild of a third one - just South of Larkhall - which is now in a very precarious state. Nice to have....but it would cost billions.

My top ten on existing lines - in no particular order - would be:

Abernethy
Newburgh
Ballinluig (Aberfeldy Parkway)
Newtonhill
Bucksburn
Hurlford
Mauchline
Cumnock
Thornhill
Beattock (Moffat Parkway)

Plus a sentimental bonus point for Rhu at the Southern end of the West Highland Line. The village has expanded considerably since its station closed in 1964 and has a healthy commuter traffic to Glasgow....with very limited parking available at Helensburgh Central.

As regards stations on reopened lines - assuming the availability of a magic money tree - I would go for:

Tweedbank-Melrose-St Boswells-Hawick
Aberdeen-Banchory (with a possible eventual extension to Ballater)
Dyce-Ellon-Maud Junction-Fraserburgh/Peterhead
Alloa-Kincardine-Culross-Dunfermline
Leuchars-St Andrews
Elderslie-Kilmacolm (with a new connection with the main line at Elderslie avoiding the new housing development on the Paisley Canal line)
Arkleston Junction-Glasgow Airport
....and yes - maybe Larkhall-Strathaven - if the magic money tree were to be big enough! (Viaduct engineers apply here!) ;)
 

gingerheid

Established Member
Joined
2 Apr 2006
Messages
1,587
How about reopening the bridge of weir / kilmacolm line

It always surprises me that this has never seems to have made it into the object of an organised campaign group that achieves column inches!

Obviously it would be difficult in terms of capacity between Glasgow and Paisley, or in terms of housing between Paisley Canal and Elderslie. However simplistically it superficially appears at least as easy as things that regularly get suggested and campaigned for! It would also serve an area that's seeing a lot of building but doesn't have the nicest road links, with a population higher than areas where things get campaigned for!
 

newguy

Member
Joined
5 Apr 2019
Messages
56
It always surprises me that this has never seems to have made it into the object of an organised campaign group that achieves column inches!

Obviously it would be difficult in terms of capacity between Glasgow and Paisley, or in terms of housing between Paisley Canal and Elderslie. However simplistically it superficially appears at least as easy as things that regularly get suggested and campaigned for! It would also serve an area that's seeing a lot of building but doesn't have the nicest road links, with a population higher than areas where things get campaigned for!
I used to live in that part of the world and getting into Glasgow was a bit of a pain involving driving to Johnstone station early enough to get a parking space. Although thats probably not a problem anymore.

I’ve cycled the old track and it’s pretty much good to go. No idea what work the bridges would need for power lines to be out in but as you say probably very easy one to do. There has also been a lot of house building.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Sadly never likely to happen as it would involve the replacement of two large demolished viaducts and - at Stonehouse and Strathaven - and a comprehensive rebuild of a third one - just South of Larkhall - which is now in a very precarious state. Nice to have....but it would cost billions.

My top ten on existing lines - in no particular order - would be:

Abernethy
Newburgh
Ballinluig (Aberfeldy Parkway)
Newtonhill
Bucksburn
Hurlford
Mauchline
Cumnock
Thornhill
Beattock (Moffat Parkway)

Plus a sentimental bonus point for Rhu at the Southern end of the West Highland Line. The village has expanded considerably since its station closed in 1964 and has a healthy commuter traffic to Glasgow....with very limited parking available at Helensburgh Central.

As regards stations on reopened lines - assuming the availability of a magic money tree - I would go for:

Tweedbank-Melrose-St Boswells-Hawick
Aberdeen-Banchory (with a possible eventual extension to Ballater)
Dyce-Ellon-Maud Junction-Fraserburgh/Peterhead
Alloa-Kincardine-Culross-Dunfermline
Leuchars-St Andrews
Elderslie-Kilmacolm (with a new connection with the main line at Elderslie avoiding the new housing development on the Paisley Canal line)
Arkleston Junction-Glasgow Airport
....and yes - maybe Larkhall-Strathaven - if the magic money tree were to be big enough! (Viaduct engineers apply here!) ;)
it’s a real shame. Strathaven is a lovely town but it’s is in the middle of nowhere and there has been a lot of housebuilding in that area recently I do believe the locals got together and created a community bus service but I’m not sure how that’s going.
 

Magdalia

Established Member
Joined
1 Jan 2022
Messages
5,032
Location
The Fens
Would be fairly easy to get rid of one of Invershin or Culrain, if you wanted another speed-up - they're about 400 yards apart.
Culrain and Invershin are 34 chains apart, but it is not possible to walk between the two stations.

In between is the Kyle of Sutherland, and the railway is the only means of getting from one side to the other at that location. The nearest alternative for crossing the Kyle of Sutherland is the road bridge between Ardgay and Bonar Bridge more than 3 miles away.
 

Top