"I'm a Signalman, not a Signaller!"

[Driver068]

On another example - the railway still refers to ‘Pilotman Working’ presumably because it is long-accepted terminology for a very safety-critical type of degraded signalling operation? To my mind ‘pilot working’ implies either a helper locomotive or an assisting driver who is conducting someone over a route they don’t know.

PILOT - This term is actually an abbreviation...

P - Person
I - In
L - Lieu
O - Of
T - Token

So more than likely is gender oriented with having man on the end given women not normally work on railways back when dated.

The person acts as a physical token as you would on some lines giving your train permission to pass through that section where no other train should.

 

[AlterEgo]

My late grandfather and great uncle were both Signallers in the Army and Navy respectively during the Second World War. Operating railway signals is a different job, so should have a different title.

A military signaller should really be called a radio operator or telecoms operator because that's what they do, and someone whose job is specifically to operate signals should be a signaller, as is the case on the railway.

The army and navy can't even agree on what a Captain is so I'm not sure I would be leaning on the military to justify anachronistic and gendered job titles on civvy street.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Feb 2024 ==

PILOT - This term is actually an abbreviation...

P - Person
I - In
L - Lieu
O - Of
T - Token

Backronym, not acronym I'm afraid! A pilot is someone who guides a vessel or vehicle.

 

[LowLevel]

PILOT - This term is actually an abbreviation...

P - Person
I - In
L - Lieu
O - Of
T - Token

So more than likely is gender oriented with having man on the end given women not normally work on railways back when dated.

The person acts as a physical token as you would on some lines giving your train permission to pass through that section where no other train should.

It's a helpful backronym designed to help people with training. Historically it was never an acronym.

 

[Driver068]

Backronym, not acronym I'm afraid! A pilot is someone who guides a vessel or vehicle.

However the meaning in railway terminology remains the same...Person In Lieu Of Token

 

[zwk500]

I can see why some women may be offended by the generic use of 'signalman', but if that terms is reserved for males, and 'signalwoman' for females, if anything that is more inclusive, not less.

The creation of distinct categories based on gender is the exact opposite of inclusivity.

My late grandfather and great uncle were both Signallers in the Army and Navy respectively during the Second World War. Operating railway signals is a different job, so should have a different title.

You relatives presumably sent signals to other instruct people to do something? How is that different to what a Railway signaller does?

 

[AlterEgo]

However the meaning in railway terminology remains the same...Person In Lieu Of Token

It doesn't mean that at all. It's just an unofficial backronym for memory purposes, the same way people believe the urban myth that CAPE means "Cancelled At Point of Entry" (also wrong!).

The correct term is pilot anyway, and has been since 2022.

GERT8000-P2 Iss 7 - Working single and bi-directional lines by pilot

You will need this module if you carry out the duties of a driver, pilot or signaller.

www.rssb.co.uk

RSSB gendered language: Pilotman now called Pilot

Pleased to see the RSSB has finally removed gender-specific language from the rule book with Pilotman becoming Pilot and "manned" (i.e. manned level crossings) becoming "manually controlled".

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[43066]

Some signallers still introduce themselves as “X workstation signalman” over the GSMR.

In terms of other grades it’s very common in the industry to refer to drivers by depot and assumed gender: “London men”, “Derby men”, for example. Even those London and Derby men who happen to be female .

 

[Peter Sarf]

I can see why some women may be offended by the generic use of 'signalman', but if that terms is reserved for males, and 'signalwoman' for females, if anything that is more inclusive, not less.

There are two halves to the issues.
1) What an individual calls them self.
2) What the job is described as (for instance in an advert).

If one is advertising a "Signaller" job do we really want to be inclusive by calling it a "Signalman or Signalwoman" job ?. That is cumbersome and it is inclusive by trying to cover every gender rather than being gender less. Furthermore it avoids having to include any extra genders some would argue the case for - the description gets longer if trans gender needs t be added to the description. The gender of the potential applicant should be irrelevant in almost all cases (there is bound to be an exception I have not though of).

Aside :-
Well there is a thing, my spell checker suggests "Signalwoman" should be spelt "Signal woman", "Signal-woman" or "Signalman" !.

 

[D6130]

Surprised Second Man side still exists. Heard rumours of a change but never experienced it. Anyone had any experiences on a different name. Second person does not exactly work lol

IIRC, BR changed the job designation sometime in the mid-1980s to 'Driver's Assistant', following the appointment of the first female applicants.

 

[12LDA28C]

IIRC, BR changed the job designation sometime in the mid-1980s to 'Driver's Assistant', following the appointment of the first female applicants.

Indeed, hence the former 'Secondman's side' becoming known as the 'DA's side'.

 

[LBMPSB]

The 'man' suffix in workman originates in the Latin 'manus' as in: (the hand that) carries out the work, and is not a gender identifier. So in other words, a Signalman is a Signalhand. A bit like in the old wild west when a cowboy that handles cattle was called a Cow-hand, the Americans not being one for using Latin unlike as often used in the English Language. That aside, society and views change and if a proportion of society are offended by what they see as Gender titled jobs, then yes change it, a name doesn't change the job in hand.

 

[Jonny]

The 'man' suffix in workman originates in the Latin 'manus' as in: (the hand that) carries out the work, and is not a gender identifier. So in other words, a Signalman is a Signalhand. A bit like in the old wild west when a cowboy that handles cattle was called a Cow-hand, the Americans not being one for using Latin unlike as often used in the English Language. That aside, society and views change and if a proportion of society are offended by what they see as Gender titled jobs, then yes change it, a name doesn't change the job in hand.

Good to know, but you might have to go with "signal person" or even "signalperson" if you need a non-gender-specific term that maps to manus.

 

[Silenos]

The 'man' suffix in workman originates in the Latin 'manus' as in: (the hand that) carries out the work, and is not a gender identifier.

Not according to the OED, which clearly states the etymology to be Work + Man. Plus an Anglo-Saxon term with a Latin suffix seems linguistically unlikely, to say the least.