Impact of platform staffing arrangements on performance of the 'Castlefield Corridor'

[Bald Rick]

Moderator note: split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...l-recent-large-infrastructure-project.192697/

And by complete coincidence I’m stood on the platform at Oxford Road as I type, and it’s horrible to see how fragile the timetable is

I’ve spent a bit of time on the Castlefield corridor recently, and by far the best and easiest thing to do to improve timetable resilience would be to have significantly improved despatch arrangements. Quite why the platform team allow people to stand right in front of opening doors of busy trains meaning it takes ages to unload is beyond me.

 

[Starmill]

Quite why the platform team allow people to stand right in front of opening doors of busy trains meaning it takes ages to unload is beyond me.

It has been an open secret, for a very long time, that there has been basically no management attention on what is happening on platforms to support the timetable beyond an attempt to save money in the employment of staff. On the latter point I would cite the shortage of staff numbers, the fact that some are employed on inferior terms and conditions to their colleagues by contractors Carlisle, and the removal of most platform staff from other nearby stations, e.g. Manchester Airport.

The employment of a large number of agency staff who are provided with very little or no railway industry training and familiarisation to shout at customers has made the problem which you describe worse, as has the painting of a red line on the platform (which was far too far back and had to be repainted much closer to the edge), because psychologically it makes customers feel more anxious of missing the train as they wait. This makes them more anxious to board the train as soon as it arrives, and the red lines, announcements, and agency staff have no effect on this. Additionally, the large number of long-distance trains which serve these platforms brings large quantities of luggage, which takes time to unload and load even if the problem you describe doesn't occur. The inappropriate rolling stock with very narrow doorways and very limited standing space, especially the class 158, which is commonly found calling at these platforms, is also crucial in station overtime. The agency staff have also been known to inhibit the dispatch procedure by standing in the way, or stretching or making other motions interpreted as emergency signals by other members of staff (unsurprisingly for staff authorised to work on platforms having been given no form of dispatch training).

In other words, from my experience of several conversations directly with the staff who work on these platforms, and from what I see when I travel from them myself several times weekly, there is very little or nothing one person can do to stop the current crush around the doors. The consequences on timetables on 3 minute headway where both trains are long-distance services and which have narrow doors at the ends of carriages are and were totally and utterly predictable.

The recent amendments to working to try to ensure that both circuits are not occupied simultaneously on these platforms where trains are short enough (which is almost all of them) seems to have helped. I would question why it was ever as it was in the first place, though. The screens in the lounge upstairs were initially programmed very poorly and displayed very confusing information, which limited their effectiveness at trying to get people to wait upstairs. They're now slightly improved, as is information at platform level.

There is no substitute for a properly supported and well remunerated and motivated workforce, of appropriate strength in numbers, to work on these platforms. It is my belief that performance under the current timetable cannot be easily improved without it. Plainly though, train companies don't want to pay for it.

 

[xotGD]

It would be helpful if platform staff could advise passengers which part of the platform each train will stop at, so that people are waiting in the right place and use all the doors.

Plus, let people know which way round the TPE trains are so that passengers don't have to dash from one end to the other when A is at the back rather than the front.

 

[Dr Hoo]

I seem to spend a lot of time on Platforms 13&14 at Manchester Piccadilly and (as a former BR Station Manager) am always struck by the difference from the London Underground. The Underground has the advantage that all the trains are virtually the same and the variability in route and stopping patterns is far lower. You wouldn’t always recognise it but most passengers aren’t in a ‘desperate’ state to catch a specific train.

At busy Central London stations one employee essentially ‘manages’ the situation with a ‘withering fire’ of literally endless announcements that are scripted on the basis that all passengers are air-headed newbies who have never seen a tube train before and probably don’t have English as a mother tongue.

“Use the full length of the platform”
“Stand behind the yellow line”
“Stand clear of the doors”
“Let passengers off the train first”
“Use all available doors”
“Pass right down inside the cars”
“Stand way from the train”
“There is another train right behind this one”
Etc.
Repeat
Remix

These barked commands eventually imprint themselves on people’s consciousness and show some evidence of affecting behaviour.

I see little evidence of this ‘massed Gatling gun’ approach at Piccadilly. Instead precious bandwidth is filled up with lists of all calls to Barrow-in-Furness, comments on train length, connections, trolley service, first class and apologies for late running. Let alone announcements about skateboarding, slippery surfaces, see-it-say-it-sorted and events at other platforms.

There is a very real problem in trying to operated a metro intensity frequency of departures with a bucolic mix of rolling stock, unfamiliar luggage encumbered passengers, regular need for ramp deployment, etc. Somehow timetable modelling simply cannot cope with this level of ‘chaos’.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is no substitute for a properly supported and well remunerated and motivated workforce, of appropriate strength in numbers, to work on these platforms. It is my belief that performance under the current timetable cannot be easily improved without it. Plainly though, train companies don't want to pay for it.

I'm not sure that's the best way to spend the money. They would be better off with no staff there at all (and dispatch being done by the guard, with added platform monitors to assist if they couldn't see) but with trains long enough for the traffic. The primary issue is caused by overcrowding - people are jostling for position to get a seat. If they knew they'd get one this wouldn't happen to anything like the same extent. Compare it with Thameslink.

I reiterate my call for a complete ban on trains shorter than 80m on the whole corridor, which would solve a large part of the issue. If it isn't important enough for 2 x 15x or a 319, can it, terminate it at Oxford Road, send it to Victoria or portion work it. Within 10 years, the aim should be longer - minimum 5x22m (TPE LHCS) but ideally 6x23m, other than at very quiet times of day.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Plus, let people know which way round the TPE trains are so that passengers don't have to dash from one end to the other when A is at the back rather than the front.

I really, really don't understand why TOCs other than VTWC seem completely unable to do this consistently. It is not hard. Not in the slightest.

 

[Starmill]

I'm not sure that's the best way to spend the money. They would be better off with no staff there at all (and dispatch being done by the guard, with added platform monitors to assist if they couldn't see) but with trains long enough for the traffic. The primary issue is caused by overcrowding - people are jostling for position to get a seat. If they knew they'd get one this wouldn't happen to anything like the same extent. Compare it with Thameslink.

I reiterate my call for a complete ban on trains shorter than 80m on the whole corridor, which would solve a large part of the issue. If it isn't important enough for 2 x 15x or a 319, can it, terminate it at Oxford Road, send it to Victoria or portion work it. Within 10 years, the aim should be longer - minimum 5x22m (TPE LHCS) but ideally 6x23m, other than at very quiet times of day.

While this would certainly help with the number of people travelling, it probably would not help with the nature of people being unfamiliar with the station, carrying heavy luggage, being uncertain which train they actually need, or trying to get on before others have stepped off. For that, you'd need something else.

Also, there is often not enough rolling stock for the current plans, so it's unclear where more could come from? Unless you are saying that there ought to have been more ordered.

 

[Starmill]

I really, really don't understand why TOCs other than VTWC seem completely unable to do this consistently. It is not hard. Not in the slightest.

It's hardly ever done with trains from these platforms. When it is, it's often wrong.

 

[edwin_m]

I've seen coach order displayed on displays for TPE services at Piccadilly but not sure if it's consistent or comprehensive. The worst one is the EMT/EMR service which I use every few weeks, which certainly doesn't display coach order although regulars will know that A/B are at the Liverpool end (except when they aren't) and usually have all the reservations. Also unlike TPE, they don't even put signs by the doors advising passengers which seat numbers this door is best for, which I think would make some difference given the narrow end doors of the 158 and the difficulty of getting down the aisle to the far end of the coach when others are doing likewise in the opposite direction.

 

[Bletchleyite]

While this would certainly help with the number of people travelling, it probably would not help with the nature of people being unfamiliar with the station, carrying heavy luggage, being uncertain which train they actually need, or trying to get on before others have stepped off. For that, you'd need something else.

Perhaps improved PIS, as it's pretty poor there? With French-style coach position signage etc?

Also, there is often not enough rolling stock for the current plans, so it's unclear where more could come from? Unless you are saying that there ought to have been more ordered.

Yes, it should, absolutely. Northern's fleet is not increasing in size anywhere near as much as it should be with the CAF units added and the Pacers removed. As for TPE, they will be overcrowded again within a year or two as the suppressed demand comes forward - all of their units/LHCS should have been 7-car with an option to extend to 8.

I know I keep banging on about this, but it does seem that the TOCs, DfT etc simply don't get it - the North needs South East style train lengths now. My view would be an absolute minimum of 80m for regional services and an absolute minimum of 160m for InterCity, which would include TPE and the Nottingham services as well as Northern Connect (e.g. my proposal for 6.195 running to Barrow and Windermere each hour).

 

[Baxenden Bank]

On my last use of Platform 14, I (and everyone else) was barked at constantly to move well down the platform.

No mention of which way round the TPE train would be so 'A' passengers ended up at the 'C' and vice versa.

Irrelevant anyway as the train stopped well short of its usual position with the front carriage by the stairs. All the passengers who had done as they were rudely shouted at to do were, therefore, some distance from the train and had to come back, with all their luggage, to where the train had stopped.

Would I be correct in thinking that Manchester Piccadilly is a "major station" 'managed' by Network Rail?

 

[MS805]

The idea of the red line is that people STAND behind the red line and WALK along the platform between the red and yellow lines. This is better than previously, when people used to stand up to the yellow line and, in effect, force people waking along the platform to do so too close to the edge, outside the yellow line. The present arrangements SHOULD keep the space between the platform edge and the yellow line clear of people most of the time, so that drivers coming in don't get too nerve-wracked and the "dispatch corridor" is kept clear. In practice, Mr Shouty McShoutface and his colleagues stand in the gap between the red and yellow lines, when they should also stay inside the red line, so that people walking along the platform end up still having to walk outside the yellow line.

These crowd-control people really should have been told in the first place what was the point of the system on the through platforms. The whole arrangement doesn't seem to help anything terribly well, and doesn't actually mitigate the delay-inducing problems of people crowding around doors when others are trying to leave or failing to use all of the doors.

 

[Starmill]

The idea of the red line is that people STAND behind the red line and WALK along the platform between the red and yellow lines.

This isn't how it's implemented in practice. Passengers on the platforms are shouted at for crossing the line. I was even on one case exceptionally shouted at for walking alongside the train, over the red line, while it was stood waiting time in the platform, and I was going down to a different door to board it. I was asked a third time when I ignored the person shouting at me, as I had initially thought they were addressing somebody else. I had by that stage almost reached the door where I was boarding the train, but was still shouted at a third time to 'get behind the red line'.

 

[MS805]

This isn't how it's implemented in practice. Passengers on the platforms are shouted at for crossing the line. I was even on one case exceptionally shouted at for walking alongside the train, over the red line, while it was stood waiting time in the platform, and I was going down to a different door to board it. I was asked a third time when I ignored the person shouting at me, as I had initially thought they were addressing somebody else. I had by that stage almost reached the door where I was boarding the train, but was still shouted at a third time to 'get behind the red line'.

Well, no, which is why I pointed out that the shouters need to know what the system is for. Sounds like you were doing exactly what was intended. Up until dispatch, there is no restriction on where people are standing or walking, if a train is in the platform. After all, as I imagine you are thinking, how do you get to the train if you are not allowed to cross the red line?! In practice, people do need to get behind the yellow line sharpish because, most of the time, they won't be aware of when the train is going to depart but passengers are still basically allowed to board the train!

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Well, no, which is why I pointed out that the shouters need to know what the system is for. Sounds like you were doing exactly what was intended. Up until dispatch, there is no restriction on where people are standing or walking, if a train is in the platform. After all, as I imagine you are thinking, how do you get to the train if you are not allowed to cross the red line?! In practice, people do need to get behind the yellow line sharpish because, most of the time, they won't be aware of when the train is going to depart but passengers are still basically allowed to board the train!

Well, it's pretty obvious when a train is about to depart because there is a beeping noise and then the doors close. I think most people can work this out without being shouted at (constantly).

If the platform is so crowded that it is dangerous, people should be penned upstairs and only released after the train has come to a complete and total stand (is there any other - some kind of partial stationary?).

If there are rules about each of the coloured lines, perhaps they need to employ someone with at least rudimentary social skills to explain this to the customers, politely.

When, exactly, did it become acceptable to constantly shout at customers?

 

[Bertie the bus]

At busy Central London stations one employee essentially ‘manages’ the situation with a ‘withering fire’ of literally endless announcements that are scripted on the basis that all passengers are air-headed newbies who have never seen a tube train before and probably don’t have English as a mother tongue.

“Use the full length of the platform”
“Stand behind the yellow line”
“Stand clear of the doors”
“Let passengers off the train first”
“Use all available doors”
“Pass right down inside the cars”
“Stand way from the train”
“There is another train right behind this one”
Etc.
Repeat
Remix

These barked commands eventually imprint themselves on people’s consciousness and show some evidence of affecting behaviour.

I see little evidence of this ‘massed Gatling gun’ approach at Piccadilly.

Earlier this year there were plenty of barked instructions on platforms 13 and 14 at Piccadilly. So much so that I understand Network Rail received many complaints and it has quietened down considerably. Londoners might not mind having some nobody shouting at them but we Northerners don't really take to it.

 

[Allwinter_Kit]

I think most people can work this out without being shouted at (constantly).
...
When, exactly, did it become acceptable to constantly shout at customers?

Earlier this year there were plenty of barked instructions on platforms 13 and 14 at Piccadilly. So much so that I understand Network Rail received many complaints and it has quietened down considerably. Londoners might not mind having some nobody shouting at them but we Northerners don't really take to it.

It really is most unpleasant on 13/14 - overcrowded and delayed, and having people who have minimal knowledge just shouting angrily at tired commuters and confused holiday goers doesn't exactly improve the ambience.

I actually asked one of the shouty chaps what the purpose of the red line was other than to pen too many people into an even smaller space and he couldn't tell me - just shouted at me to stay in it, even though my train was arriving (which I thought was when we were meant to move up behind the yellow line but never mind)...

The constant shouting also just means it's ignored. As others have said, as soon as a train arrived normal service is resumed.

Whole thing is just an angry, shouty waste of time and effort trying to cheaply manage a situation that should simply have not been allowed to occur. Whilst building 15/16 and lengthening trains will take time, the least the railways could do is not harangue us unpleasantly as a result of their own under-investment.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The idea of the red line is that people STAND behind the red line and WALK along the platform between the red and yellow lines.

That isn't what they are doing. You get barked at if you are over the red line at all, to the point that I thought the idea was that you remain behind the red line until everyone has alighted and they say "go" - which actually might work if they actually did say "go".

 

[Bletchleyite]

When, exactly, did it become acceptable to constantly shout at customers?

The point when it became acceptable in society to use agency security staff for any purpose other than to eject people from unoccupied buildings, factories etc who shouldn't be there simply because nobody should be there because it's closed and they are just guarding it, but without in any way improving their training.

While SIA has improved things, a lot of pub bouncers are as bad. We simply have a culture of cheapness, poor training and overassertive thuggery in our security industry - it isn't as bad as it was with regard to licensed establishments, but that just highlights that it was even more awful in years gone by. Contract security guards in mainland Europe, by contrast, while they aren't paid any more than ours so far as I know, are markedly more professional, better trained and more personable.

 

[SteveM70]

The worst one is the EMT/EMR service which I use every few weeks, which certainly doesn't display coach order although regulars will know that A/B are at the Liverpool end (except when they aren't) and usually have all the reservations. Also unlike TPE, they don't even put signs by the doors advising passengers which seat numbers this door is best for, which I think would make some difference given the narrow end doors of the 158 and the difficulty of getting down the aisle to the far end of the coach when others are doing likewise in the opposite direction.

Add into the mix incorrect announcements as to which of the front / rear two carriages are going through to Norwich and which are being detached at Nottingham.

Twice in three trips it’s been wrong, leading to a mad panic to retrieve my bag from the racks at one end of the carriage and my bike from the other before I got marooned at Nottingham

It can’t be that hard to get this sort of stuff right, can it?

 

[Bletchleyite]

It can’t be that hard to get this sort of stuff right, can it?

Again, VTWC manage it perfectly well, as do most other European railways. It isn't hard at all, no. It's just shoddy, incompetent and lazy, and sits in the same school of thought of "if the wheels turn, chuck it out into service". Crikey, the rest of Europe managed it in the days when it'd require lots of paperwork and telephone calls. Nowadays, this sort of thing is a VERY easy IT problem to solve - simply have the guard enter (and update if necessary) the formation into a mobile device as a required procedure when taking over the train and have that populate the relevant systems via interfaces.

Perhaps franchise agreements (or whatever they become) should include financial penalties for failure to deliver the "soft" aspects of the service like these properly? Didn't they used to be included in SQUIRE/TIRE regimes? (Sorry, I forget what those stand for).

 

[AMD]

I know I keep banging on about this, but it does seem that the TOCs, DfT etc simply don't get it - the North needs South East style train lengths now. My view would be an absolute minimum of 80m for regional services and an absolute minimum of 160m for InterCity, which would include TPE and the Nottingham services as well as Northern Connect (e.g. my proposal for 6.195 running to Barrow and Windermere each hour).

Unfortunately the demand doesn't support 10 or 12 car trains, nor does the infrastructure with most station platforms in the NW somewhere between 80m and 120m long, so there is no business case to do SE train lengths. As it stands the only booked 2 car trains are the TfW services from N Wales, everything else is 3 car (185/195) and 4 car (pacer & sprinter combos/ 319). So in the short to medium term train lengths won't be looked at, other than TPE getting new trains of 5 cars.

For those who talk about Virgin being able to get their trains the right way round, they have an advantage of having a 'linear' route ie London to Manchester or Glasgow, there is little chance of trains being turned in normal service, so it is easy for them to plan coach arrangements. Other operators, particularly TPE currently interwork units between routes, so set reversals happen more regularly. TPE have a plan in place to reduce this with the rollout of the Nova fleets as interworking between routes will be all but eliminated, and they have a plan that coach A will be at the Liverpool/ Manchester Airport end once fully rolled out.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Unfortunately the demand doesn't support 10 or 12 car trains

I think you're falling into the trap of thinking everything is 12-car in the SE - it's not, not even nearly. The most common train length by far is 8x20m, and I think the demand very much does need this (or 6x23m) up North on main routes - the overcrowding and generally poor service will be causing significant suppressed demand. I still predict the TPE sets will be overcrowded again within a year or two for this reason - upping the quality by that extent will attract people in droves provided they are not priced off.

I genuinely think the 2-car DMU has had its day other than on the very quiet branch lines like Ormskirk, Kirkby etc.

I suppose as 23/24m coaches are the norm up north, standardising on 6x24m would probably provide the requisite capacity, with 3-car sets operating at quieter times, binning off the 319s in favour of 323s as I believe is the plan now.

 

[Bletchleyite]

For those who talk about Virgin being able to get their trains the right way round, they have an advantage of having a 'linear' route ie London to Manchester or Glasgow, there is little chance of trains being turned in normal service, so it is easy for them to plan coach arrangements. Other operators, particularly TPE currently interwork units between routes, so set reversals happen more regularly.

I think you miss my point - getting the correct formation on the PIS once someone has seen that it's not as planned is really not a difficult technical/procedural problem.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

It seems to me that there's one really quick fix - and a couple of rather slower fixes. None of them would solve all the problems, but they might help?

1) (The quick fix) train the platform 13/14 staff so they actually know what they are trying to do, and how they are trying to do it
2) (Rather longer term) As far as I can tell outside of Northern Rail stock, there's a fair degree of consistency in the stock used on each service - TPE is 185 and (coming soon) various sorts of Novas, EMR is 158s, and so on. So where we know that the train is going to have slow boarding / unboarding, lets timetable in more platform time. This of course will impact on capacity - but up to a point isn't it better to deliver something reliably rather than be more ambitious and constantly fail
3) (Also rather long term, and potentially controversial) Make it matter less which bit of the train passengers get on - so for trains using platforms 13 and 14 that would mean abolishing seat reservations and first class. Counted seat reservations could be kept to manage load, and wheelchair users would still have to line up to the right part of the train for (e.g.) class 185s - but would this make bulk boarding easier?

 

[Bletchleyite]

For what it's worth, TPE are not doing seat reservations for a period of time over introduction of the new stock - from November for a period I don't quite know. Counted places are being issued instead. This will provide an interesting and useful trial as to whether this has any significant effect on boarding speeds on both the new and old stock.

 

[edwin_m]

How do counted reservations work if there are people with walk-up tickets who can board any train without a reservation and will probably just sit down in any free seat?

 

[Bletchleyite]

How do counted reservations work if there are people with walk-up tickets who can board any train without a reservation and will probably just sit down in any free seat?

They are used for Advance quotas and serve no other purpose - they do not entitle boarding of or a seat in any given train.

Sometimes they get issued in error with a walk-up ticket, in this case they mean nothing at all.

 

[Elecman]

Would I be correct in thinking that Manchester Piccadilly is a "major station" 'managed' by Network Rail?

Yes it is a Network Rail Managed Station

 

[sheff1]

the shouters need to know what the system is for.

Indeed, but that would require

someone with at least rudimentary social skills to explain this to the customers, politely.

Instead we get

people who have minimal knowledge just shouting angrily

Hence

The constant shouting also just means it's ignored.

The shouters do not give the impression they would understand what the system was for even if it was explained to them in simple language. In my view, the shouters add nothing positive to the station and should be removed asap.

As an aside, I passed through Terminal 3 at the Aiport a couple of weeks ago and the security queue shouters who used to be a feature (obviously a Manchester thing !) were noticeable by their absence ... and, shock horror, security worked just as it did when the shouters were in place with no hold ups due to the absence of shouting.