Impossible to use fare route?

alistairlees

Established Member
Joined
29 Dec 2016
Messages
1,750
For a journey from Moorthorpe to Saxilby there are two fare routes:
1. Any Permitted
2. LNER & Connections

As Moorthorpe and Saxilby share a routeing point (Doncaster) in common, then the only permitted routes are:
1. direct train to Doncaster and direct train from Doncaster
2. the shortest route (or within 3 miles), whether it goes via Doncaster or not

The shortest route is actually Moorthorpe - Swinton - Doncaster - Saxilby. It's about 41 miles.

There are no LNER trains on this route.

To go on an LNER train you'd need to go from Doncaster to Retford (Moorthorpe - Swinton - Doncaster - Retford - Saxilby), wgich is about 49.5 miles, so not valid according to the routeing guide. An alternative would be LNER from Wakefield Westgate to Doncaster - but, again, this would be longer than the shortest route.

Is it basically impossible to use an LNER & connections fare on this route?

One reason for asking is that the SVS (Off-Peak Single) fare from Moorthorpe to Saxilby is a somewhat eye-watering £42.80 (over £1 a mile!). The LNER & Connections fares range from £8.00 to £26.00. A solution would obviously be to split tickets (one ticket from Moorthorpe to Wakefield Westgate; then the LNER & Connections fare from Wakefield Westgate to Saxilby (it's the same fare)).

But, other than splitting tickets, is there a way to use the LNER & Connections fare? Or does the routeing guide requirement to use the shortest journey, as the two stations have a routeing point (Doncaster) in common, override this, thus making it impossible to use?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

JB_B

Member
Joined
27 Dec 2013
Messages
908
You're correct, no mapped routes and the shortest route is via Swinton (though RGD and railmiles diverge ~46.5m / ~41m - maybe some freight-only there? )

However, route:00430 ( LNER & CONNECTNS ) doesn't mandate use of LNER - you just need to avoid travel by Grand Central and by Hull Trains and you need to avoid travelling through Bury St Edmunds, Thetford and Wellingborough.
 
Last edited:

kieron

Established Member
Joined
22 Mar 2012
Messages
2,479
Location
Connah's Quay
railmiles is using the Moorthorpe-Fitzwilliam-Doncaster-Saxilby route, but reverses at South Kirkby Junction instead of going all the way to Fitzwilliam. It doesn't follow the rules in the routeing guide.

The 00430 route code doesn't require you to use LNER, but most of the ticket codes which are used with it (including all of the advance tickets) do require you to use them for at least part of the journey.

The reason why the fares are there is, unsurprisingly, because they're defined for a much larger flow, one which covers routes such as Leeds-Newark North Gate, and no-one cares enough to block them out for journeys for which they can't be used.
 
Last edited:

JB_B

Member
Joined
27 Dec 2013
Messages
908
...
The 00430 route code doesn't require you to use LNER, but most of the ticket codes which are used with it (including all of the advance tickets) do require you to use them for at least part of the journey.
...
Thanks - I should have spotted that - that's a good point.
 

Adam0984

Member
Joined
18 Feb 2014
Messages
757
Go down the road to South Elmsall for a train to Doncaster instead of using Moorthorpe and having to double back at Fitzwilliam or Swinton
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Associate Staff
Events Co-ordinator
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
14,798
Location
Manchester
This is a reasonably common occurrence. It reminds me of Shrewsbury to Wrexham General tickets routed Avanti West Coast.
 

sheff1

Established Member
Joined
24 Dec 2009
Messages
4,801
Location
Sheffield
Am I missing something ? The only fares I can see from Moorthorpe to Saxilby are Advance fares. Advance fares can be offered via any route the relevant TOC(s) agree. There are many cases where Advance tickets are offered on routings which are not allowed wth walk up 'Any Permiited' tickets - an example often mentioned on here is Sheffield to London 'LNR & XC only'.
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
48,319
Location
Yorkshire
Am I missing something ? The only fares I can see from Moorthorpe to Saxilby are Advance fares. Advance fares can be offered via any route the relevant TOC(s) agree. There are many cases where Advance tickets are offered on routings which are not allowed wth walk up 'Any Permiited' tickets - an example often mentioned on here is Sheffield to London 'LNR & XC only'.
Yes but there needs to be some underlying data to permit it.
 

alistairlees

Established Member
Joined
29 Dec 2016
Messages
1,750
Am I missing something ? The only fares I can see from Moorthorpe to Saxilby are Advance fares. Advance fares can be offered via any route the relevant TOC(s) agree. There are many cases where Advance tickets are offered on routings which are not allowed wth walk up 'Any Permiited' tickets - an example often mentioned on here is Sheffield to London 'LNR & XC only'.
The Sheffield to London Euston question is a good one. There is no mapped route from Sheffield to London Group that would enable travel via Tamworth, and there are no direct trains and nor is it the shortest route. And there are no positive easements that I can see that would allow it.

So it is not a permitted route, and tickets from Sheffield to London Euston that are route 00370 or 00460 (see http://www.brfares.com/#expert?orig=SHF&dest=EUS for details) cannot be sold.

Trying a few journey planners does indeed suggest that is the case.

Derby to London Euston, for the same route codes, works perfectly well, as that's all on map TV.
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
48,319
Location
Yorkshire
Sheffield to London Group was mapped via Tamworth but Virgin Trains objected to this (simply because there was a short period of time when Sheffield to Tonbridge tickets were priced at 10% of their usual cost!) and told Rail Delivery Group to remove all permitted routes (including via Doncaster) apart from the Midland Mainline route. The other permitted routes were reinstated after the matter was brought to the attention of LNER, who were the owner of the "Any Permitted" flow, who had not been consulted.

You really couldn't make it up.
 

sheff1

Established Member
Joined
24 Dec 2009
Messages
4,801
Location
Sheffield
The Sheffield to London Euston question is a good one. There is no mapped route from Sheffield to London Group that would enable travel via Tamworth, and there are no direct trains and nor is it the shortest route. And there are no positive easements that I can see that would allow it.

So it is not a permitted route, and tickets from Sheffield to London Euston that are route 00370 or 00460 (see http://www.brfares.com/#expert?orig=SHF&dest=EUS for details) cannot be sold.

Trying a few journey planners does indeed suggest that is the case.
Any idea when it became impossible to buy these tickets ? I have certainly bought them previously but not for at least a year.
 

ForTheLoveOf

Established Member
Joined
7 Oct 2017
Messages
6,007
The Sheffield to London Euston question is a good one. There is no mapped route from Sheffield to London Group that would enable travel via Tamworth, and there are no direct trains and nor is it the shortest route. And there are no positive easements that I can see that would allow it.

So it is not a permitted route, and tickets from Sheffield to London Euston that are route 00370 or 00460 (see http://www.brfares.com/#expert?orig=SHF&dest=EUS for details) cannot be sold.

Trying a few journey planners does indeed suggest that is the case.

Derby to London Euston, for the same route codes, works perfectly well, as that's all on map TV.
I think it has to be inferred that any ticket that is sold is valid via the shortest route compliant with the route/TOC restriction. Obviously that is not written anywhere in the NRCoT but it simply common sense - clearly you cannot be sold a (travel) ticket that is totally invalid to travel. In this case I understand there is (or at least, was) a route-specific positive easement in place allowing travel via Tamworth.
 

kieron

Established Member
Joined
22 Mar 2012
Messages
2,479
Location
Connah's Quay
Any idea when it became impossible to buy these tickets ? I have certainly bought them previously but not for at least a year.
The BY+TV map combination (which gives a route via Tamworth) stopped being available for Sheffield-London in June 2014, but I don't know if there have been any more recent relevant changes.

Looking on nre.co.uk*, though, they will offer tickets on the route via Tamworth (and you can buy them a third party). They only offer first class any permitted tickets, though, for some reason.

The restrictions on "LNR AND XC ONLY" tickets include "must go via Nuneaton (NUN) and Tamworth (TAM)", so I don't know why it doesn't offer those instead.

* You may need to delete any nationalrail.co.uk cookies you have for this link to open correctly.
 

JB_B

Member
Joined
27 Dec 2013
Messages
908
The Sheffield to London Euston question is a good one. There is no mapped route from Sheffield to London Group that would enable travel via Tamworth, and there are no direct trains and nor is it the shortest route. And there are no positive easements that I can see that would allow it.

The route via Tamworth is the shortest route from Sheffield to Euston (using the RG data) .

At least one retailer is offering the £60 route 00370 SVS.

shf_eus.png
 

Top