'Impossible' train times to keep to a clockface timetable

[jon0844]

Being bored, I was on OpenTrainTimes this morning and looking at various trains from Hatfield, only to notice that many trains in the day are (public) timetabled for times that are impossible to achieve based on the working timetable.

In some cases, a train is down on the WTT to arrive 1-1m30 'late' and leave late. And, that is exactly what does happen in reality too - as most of the semi-fast (usually xx25 and xx55) trains do London arrive 1-2 minutes late. I've always put this down to the train being held up through the viaduct, but now it seems the train might be running just fine.

I can only imagine that the variations are simply because of the pathing issues and FCC being unable to fit trains in to exactly match a regular clockface departure, but opting to show the trains at the same times anyway.

As the trains will never leave early, there's no chance of someone missing a train - simply having to wait a minute or so longer. With the padding, it will arrive at King's Cross on time or early anyway, so it's just a minor inconvenience for those alighting before KGX, but something nearly everyone will take into account if they're regular users.

However, people at Hatfield nearly always see these trains showing as running late. Even if only by a minute or two, I am sure this helps compound the image of FCC never being able to run trains on time - when the fact is, the train is running just fine, just not to the same schedule!

 

[Tomnick]

It makes it less likely that they'll miss their train though . Perhaps more usefully, it might mean that trains are less likely to be delayed (according to their WTT schedule - which is the one that matters as far as the 'big picture' of running the railway is concerned) by latecomers running onto the platform at the last minute.

I think there are (or were?) some quite substantial differences between PTT and WTT at Welwyn North (up to seven or eight minutes?) to allow trains to be run ahead of time through the bottleneck if the train they're booked to follow is late, leaving early Welwyn North early to WTT, rather than having to stand to let the late-runner through first.

 

[Ebore]

Off peak Nottingham - St Pancras HSTs are booked to depart Leicester and Market Harborough 2½ minutes later than in the PTT.

 

[A-driver]

Its long been debated between drivers and management where we stand on this.

Basically most of the mainline stoppers are booked 3min 'Late' into welwyn north, WGC and Hatfield. They will normally be even later as they are held at Woolmer green for an east coast and the cruiser to come by.

The issue is that when we are on time we can actually be at welwyn north 3 mins before we are diagrammed to leave, although if we sit there until our booked time we will appear to be 3 mins late according to the departure boards!

Its a stupid situation and to be honest I go by the station boards and will leave 3 mins early if I'm on time according to the station boards.

Its all a bit of a mess really-not only that issue but also a number of impossible timings on those services to. The time given to get from finsbury park to potters bar for example is at least a minute less than needed. Even with a good unit and very confident braking at potters bar you will arrive a minute or so late.

 

[jon0844]

I have to assume it's to maintain the clockface timetable, as at some times during the day the trains will be almost on time. Of course, it does make you wonder why they don't just change the xx55 at Hatfield to be xx56 throughout the day? I expect there's some issue with scheduling elsewhere if that's done?

I met the man back in 2006 who worked on timetabling, and we sat down to look at why there was such a gap in service between 0844 and 0925. And, later on, FCC managed to get me (okay, maybe not just for me) a train at 0902 starting from Hitchin!

There's certainly no harm to me as a passenger, especially when the KGX arrival time can still be made (or even beaten) but it actually makes FCC look bad unnecessarily. That's why I am surprised there are such timings put in the public timetable that will result in the public moaning - which we all know they like to do!

 

[A-driver]

I don't think FCC loose any sleep over 'looking bad' to be honest! I can't see much they could do to make themselves look good the the public at all really!

 

[jon0844]

You're probably right there!

I guess if I worked in their PR department, I'd do a lot of things differently though - and that would certainly mean trying to ensure that passengers weren't unnecessarily told about delayed trains when they aren't.

 

[tbtc]

Interesting idea.

Going off topic, I know, but i wonder what the relationship is between the priority that passengers put on a train's departure and its arrival at their destination.

For example, would they be more annoyed at a train that departed a minute late and arrived a minute late or a train that departed five minutes late and arrived on time? Do people notice the departure time as much?

 

[jon0844]

I am not sure everyone knows when their train is due to arrive at their destination, and their own watch/phone might not be the same as railway time (or is but they don't know it is) so they won't know either way. You also often see people tutting and sighing if the train sits outside King's Cross waiting for a platform because it's early.

My gut says people would be more concerned by the train arriving late at their starting station, with people then assuming it will stay late from then on. What's more, if you aren't going to the final stop, you might really arrive late, as there's no padding at this stage.

 

[30907]

Its a stupid situation and to be honest I go by the station boards and will leave 3 mins early if I'm on time according to the station boards.

WTTs used to say "trains should leave at the advertised time where possible" - or some such.

 

[A-driver]

Cambridge is worse than Hatfield with the up Lynn cruisers. They are advertised as the xx45 but our diagrams read them as the xx48. They often don't reach Cambridge to attach until xx43/44 and I've had complaints before that its late again. When I explained that it was actually not booked to depart until xx48 but would still arrive into London at the advertised time I got lots if confused head scratching looks! And this from supposedly some of the finest minds in the country...!

 

[plymothian]

Interesting idea.

Going off topic, I know, but i wonder what the relationship is between the priority that passengers put on a train's departure and its arrival at their destination.

For example, would they be more annoyed at a train that departed a minute late and arrived a minute late or a train that departed five minutes late and arrived on time? Do people notice the departure time as much?

People definitely are get more annoyed with a late departure, regardless of an on time arrival. Because they've been made to wait longer in the first place (in the rain/cold/snow/with 3 children/elderly), they won't notice any time made up come arrival.

 

[David Barrett]

WTTs used to say "trains should leave at the advertised time where possible" - or some such.

Do you mean this one?

 

[The Planner]

The note now quotes

Trains must leave at the advertised time whenever practicable but, when booked to set down only, may depart as soon as station duties have been completed. Where the advertised departure time of passenger trains are slightly earlier than those shown in the Working Timetable, the former must be used in all quotations to the public.

 

[185143]

The 13:50 (Public Timetable) Virgin Service from London Euston is Sheduled in the WTT to get into Manchester at 13:45, which it must do as I got off that and got on the 13:48 Northern Service to Stoke!

 

[The Planner]

+5 public diff. at destination is pretty standard fare for the long distance TOCs.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Since the Working Time Table includes half-minutes, I think the platform signs that say 'train doors will be locked 30 seconds before departure' should be done away with. The train doors would then locked at the time it gives in the public timetable with the train waiting another 30secs before the off (specified in the working timetable as being 30secs later than the time in the public timetable).

In responce to the title of this topic, I think I've read on this fourm that the Wrexham - Bidston service is operated using a single unit. However, the public timetable shows it arriving in Wrexham Central two minutes after it was supposed to have left there.

 

[edwin_m]

Wrexham-Bidston is a very tight working so this may just be an effect of the difference between public and working arrival times. Central is only a siding so there is no chance of more than one train being there.

 

[D1009]

Its long been debated between drivers and management where we stand on this.

Basically most of the mainline stoppers are booked 3min 'Late' into welwyn north, WGC and Hatfield. They will normally be even later as they are held at Woolmer green for an east coast and the cruiser to come by.

The issue is that when we are on time we can actually be at welwyn north 3 mins before we are diagrammed to leave, although if we sit there until our booked time we will appear to be 3 mins late according to the departure boards!

Its a stupid situation and to be honest I go by the station boards and will leave 3 mins early if I'm on time according to the station boards.

Its all a bit of a mess really-not only that issue but also a number of impossible timings on those services to. The time given to get from finsbury park to potters bar for example is at least a minute less than needed. Even with a good unit and very confident braking at potters bar you will arrive a minute or so late.

The reason that FCC trains were advertised in advance of WTT time at Welwyn North was to provide for the situation that they would not be held waiting time at Welwyn North if the train they were booked to follow from Digswell or Woolmer Green wasn't there for any reason. Welwyn North is not a place you would want trains blocking the line for no reason. Are the instructions now that trains must not depart before their WTT times even if advertised to leave earlier?

 

[Tomnick]

I saw a delay, where a Driver had waited to his WTT time at Welwyn North (and further delayed a following late runner), being disputed in TRUST. It sounds exactly like the situation described above, hence my earlier post suggesting the same - makes sense to me!

 

[LE Greys]

I think FCC may be forgetting that not everyone they serve is a commuter. And even if they are, not all of them are going to London. I do Hitchin-Sandy an awful lot, and the fact that the train often runs a minute or two behind (except for the times I'm running behind, according to Murphy's Law) is more than a little annoying. That timetable has been shaken up and re-cast at least three times in the last decade, and they still can't get it right. Really, it all comes down to having to deal with the pinch points (Huntingdon-Fletton and Woolmer Green-Welwyn) that Railtrack promised to get rid of. Still waiting...