Improvements to Cleethorpes

[Jorge Da Silva]

If I was in charge of rail services I’d probably do the following to Cleethorpes:

• Provide an hourly Sheffield-Cleethorpes via Brigg service
• Redouble the line between Grimsby Town and Cleethorpes
• Reopen Platform 4 at Cleethorpes
• Extend a Lincoln-Nottingham services every 2 hours to Cleethorpes
• 4 trains per day to Kings Cross via Grimsby Town, Habrough, Barnetby, Scunthorpe, Crowle, Doncaster and London Kings Cross
• Provide a rail link between Hull and Cleethorpes calling at Grimsby Town, Habrough, New Holland and Hull
• Extend Lincoln services to Cleethorpes

In Summary the timetable would be:

• 1 train per hour Manchester Airport-Cleethorpes service
• 4 trains per day between Cleethorpes and London Kings Cross (via Doncaster) as planned by Grand Central
• 1 train per hour between Hull and Cleethorpes Via New Holland
• 1 train per 2 hours between Nottingham and Cleethorpes
• 1 train per 2 hours between Newark Northgate and Cleethorpes (hourly Lincoln-Cleethorpes provided with Nottingham service)
• 1 train per 2 hours between Barton-on-Humber and Cleethorpes
• 1 train per hour between Sheffield and Cleethorpes via Gainsborough and Brigg

EDIT:

After some suggestions about doing this, is it worth extending the existing Doncaster-Scunthorpe stopper to Cleethorpes via all stations providing a 30-minute service between Doncaster and Cleethorpes?

 

[adrock1976]

How would you get across the Humber from New Holland to Hull?

Also, as it is planned to have some of the Sheffield - Retford trains continue to Gainsborough Central, there could be a train extended every 2 hours to Cleethorpes via Brigg.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

How would you get across the Humber from New Holland to Hull?

Also, as it is planned to have some of the Sheffield - Retford trains continue to Gainsborough Central, there could be a train extended every 2 hours to Cleethorpes via Brigg.

I’ve heard that an hourly between Sheffield and Gainsborough Central which could be extended to Cleethorpes in the future will begin in December 2018. New Holland to Hull would run from the West of New Holland to the former yard near St Andrews Quay.

 

[HumberSprinter]

I'd rather have a 30 minute frequency to Doncaster than 4 trains to London. But this plan sounds awesome, it's almost like... 1970.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

I'd rather have a 30 minute frequency to Doncaster than 4 trains to London. But this plan sounds awesome, it's almost like... 1970.

I did think maybe a peak service between Doncaster and Cleethorpes. I’ve been on the service and it can busy around Doncaster on the Manchester to Cleethorpes service.

 

[johnnychips]

I’ve heard that an hourly between Sheffield and Gainsborough Central which could be extended to Cleethorpes in the future will begin in December 2018. New Holland to Hull would run from the West of New Holland to the former yard near St Andrews Quay.

I thought that there were not going to be any significant changes in Dec 18 as the timetablers are too busy sorting other stuff out.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

I thought that there were not going to be any significant changes in Dec 18 as the timetablers are too busy sorting other stuff out.

Okay it was planned for December 2018 now since been postponed to May 2019 (or later)

 

[johnnychips]

Still not sure how you would get from New Holland to Hull? A ship or a new bridge?

Your competition is the hourly Stagecoach 'Humber Flyer' which takes 1.5 hours from Grimsby to Hull; nearly 2 hours from Cleethorpes to Hull.

I certainly agree that the single-tracking between Cleethorpes and Grimsby is a limit on possible train services. Was it always so, or has it been single-tracked later than its opening as an economy?

 

[4-SUB 4732]

I would offer different options.

- 1tph Cleethorpes to Nottingham / Derby via Lincoln
- 1tph Barton on Humber to Grimsby Town
- 1tph Sheffield to Grimsby Town via Brigg
- 1tph Cleethorpes to Manchester via Scunthorpe

Easy and simple.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Still not sure how you would get from New Holland to Hull? A ship or a new bridge?

Your competition is the hourly Stagecoach 'Humber Flyer' which takes 1.5 hours from Grimsby to Hull; nearly 2 hours from Cleethorpes to Hull.

I certainly agree that the single-tracking between Cleethorpes and Grimsby is a limit on possible train services. Was it always so, or has it been single-tracked later than its opening as an economy?

It was singled in the 80’s. In fact you can still see the evidence of the second track.

 

[Harpers Tate]

How would you get across the Humber from New Holland to Hull?

If one were to arrange such a thing then the right way to go about it is to use a bus. But not a bus that is operated separately to and independently from trains as at presnt; a bus that is operated by the incumbent Train Operator as part of the advertised and ticketed train service - much as the ferry was years ago. Not run as a stage carriage service; not available at huge numbers of roadside stops en route, and not open to ENCTS pass holders etc. Not operated under traditional bus traffic rules (eg where late running may incur penalties) but as an extension to the Barton train service, with buses awaiting train arrivals where necessary. This is a method of working that I think we don't explore here as much as we might. Compare, for example, to Amtrak ThruWay connections in the USA. There are quite possibly many places where there is no rail route (either ever, or more probably from past closures) where such a scheme might be of benefit. Scarborough <> Whitby also comes to mind.

 

[HumberSprinter]

4-Sub's hourly route plan sounds good to me.
The Humber Flyer bus is dead slow compared to what it once was.
I remember reading about buses that had train wheels that allowed them to use tracks and roads, maybe the Barton line is a good example.
On a side note, a tunnel under the Humber has just been built near Goxhill, it's for a gas pipe, but from what I've seen it's large enough for a train to fit through, clearly a tunnel is feasible on the Humber, maybe a metro line in Hull should be added to the big wishlist?

 

[Killingworth]

4-Sub's hourly route plan sounds good to me.
The Humber Flyer bus is dead slow compared to what it once was.
I remember reading about buses that had train wheels that allowed them to use tracks and roads, maybe the Barton line is a good example.
On a side note, a tunnel under the Humber has just been built near Goxhill, it's for a gas pipe, but from what I've seen it's large enough for a train to fit through, clearly a tunnel is feasible on the Humber, maybe a metro line in Hull should be added to the big wishlist?

Work on the River Humber pipeline replacement project began in 2017 and is due to be completed in 2019. The tunnel runs from Goxhill to Paull and will be 4 metres wide, big, but a lot smaller than needed for a railway, and the pipeline to be laid in it will be 1.05 metres in diameter. A rail link from the area of New Holland and Goxhill to near Saltend and Paull would require a much bigger tunnel. Nice idea if money was available but upgrading the existing railways at both sides of the Humber might cost as much again to provide a 21st century rail service.

If this were Norway they'd just do it!

 

[Aictos]

I'd rather have a 30 minute frequency to Doncaster than 4 trains to London. But this plan sounds awesome, it's almost like... 1970.

A daily London service would be nice to have as a simple extension of the Lincoln to Kings Cross/St Pancras Int services as to a 30 minute frequency to Doncaster yes this would also be good and is depending on if the existing Doncaster to Scunthorpe service can be extended to start/terminate at Cleethorpes instead of Scunthorpe.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

A daily London service would be nice to have as a simple extension of the Lincoln to Kings Cross/St Pancras Int services as to a 30 minute frequency to Doncaster yes this would also be good and is depending on if the existing Doncaster to Scunthorpe service can be extended to start/terminate at Cleethorpes instead of Scunthorpe.

There is a daily service which extends from Scunthorpe to Cleethorpes calling at all stations. Making this regular may be a solution but I think double tracking between Grimsby Town and Cleethorpes is required before we can provide an hourly Doncaster-Clee service and a Clee-Sheffield service via Gainsborough.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

On a side note, a tunnel under the Humber has just been built near Goxhill, it's for a gas pipe, but from what I've seen it's large enough for a train to fit through, clearly a tunnel is feasible on the Humber, maybe a metro line in Hull should be added to the big wishlist?

A rail tunnel under the Humber would clearly be a very expensive project, and is not currently on the cards. But if it were built, I imagine it would quickly find itself serving much more than the 1tph to Cleethorpes that Jorge Da Silva has suggested: Most obviously, you'd want to provide at least an hourly (possibly half-hourly) service Hull to Scunthorpe, probably extended to Doncaster - this might lead to a reduction in Doncaster-Hull via Goole services. I could also foresee some services from Hull running down to Lincoln and further South - possibly that might even become the default route from Hull to London. And possibly, if the track geometry allows it, Barton services might end up off running to Hull rather than Cleethorpes, with intermediate stations now served by a Hull-Grimsby hourly stopper instead.

Such a tunnel would certainly be the catalyst for a lot of changes to train services in the area (and it's possible Grimsby and Cleethorpes might lose out slightly from that in terms of fewer services to the South and West, as some of those services get diverted to Hull).