Improving the 'North West Express' services and Castlefield

[Philip]

Do you think it would be a good idea if one of the Northern Man Airport-Blackpool services switched to starting from Victoria and thus free up a path through Castlefield, whilst also switching its Salford Crescent, Lostock, Horwich & Buckshaw Parkway calls onto the Northern Man Airport-Cumbria service, to give these stations a wider range of direct connections (so 1tph to Blackpool & 1tph to Lancaster/Cumbria)? The Man Vic-Blackpool could then take the current fast Cumbria service stopping pattern.

This is how it used to be for many years until TPE took over the Scotland services which then ran in the path of the Cumbria service and started skipping Salford and the stations between Bolton and Preston. It would be a lot more useful if the intermediate stations between Manchester & Preston had a direct connection to Lancaster, but currently both the Scotland and the TPE Cumbria services only call at Bolton (with some Cumbria services stopping at Chorley, but not all).

 

[Bletchleyite]

No. As a whole it's better to consolidate given routes on one station.

 

[Philip]

No. As a whole it's better to consolidate given routes on one station.

Why? Why does Salford Crescent need 2 Blackpool services? Surely a Blackpool and a Barrow/Windermere would be of more useful for connections, especially considering this is is what it was like for decades beforehand?

 

[randyrippley]

It's slow enough getting from Lancaster and Barrow to Manchester as it is, we don't need any more delays by adding stops

 

[faltskog36abba]

No. As a whole it's better to consolidate given routes on one station.

Like Southport?.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Like Southport?.

My preference would be to consolidate both of those on Oxford Road, yes. The consolidation on Piccadilly when the Windsor Link opened was broadly a good thing as it improved connectivity significantly, and at that point Southport had only two Victoria trains per day, a peak extra each way. The only problem was that it didn't come with the necessary additional infrastructure of Piccadilly P15/16 and quadding of the whole of Castlefield before buildings were shoved up in the way.

 

[AlastairFraser]

It would be a lot more useful if the intermediate stations between Manchester & Preston had a direct connection to Lancaster,

Swapping the termini isn't an outlandish idea while they sort out Castlefield, but there's barely any demand from suburban stations in Central/South Lancs and the outskirts of GM to Lancaster and beyond.

In any case, if people from these areas do need to make the occasional trip beyond Preston, they're much more likely to travel to Chorley or Bolton by bus or car and access the Cumbrian services there.

 

[faltskog36abba]

My preference would be to consolidate both of those on Oxford Road, yes. The consolidation on Piccadilly when the Windsor Link opened was broadly a good thing as it improved connectivity significantly, and at that point Southport had only two Victoria trains per day, a peak extra each way. The only problem was that it didn't come with the necessary additional infrastructure of Piccadilly P15/16 and quadding of the whole of Castlefield before buildings were shoved up in the way.

I was thinking The Southport's would be better off going into Victoria. Ok the Connections would be lost but it cuts down Caslefield Congestion.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I was thinking The Southport's would be better off going into Victoria. Ok the Connections would be lost but it cuts down Caslefield Congestion.

I am well aware of that - it is a long held bugbear of several people on here one way or the other. My personal experience is that people on that line would prefer an hourly 6.195 to Oxford Road or ideally the airport over twice an hour to Vic, though Vic isn't the backwater it once was as the city centre has moved that way a bit (but is still an utterly horrible station unfit for England's 2nd/3rd city).

My personal view was that the Windsor Link was the right thing to do, as was consolidating on Picc, but that there was a massive failure to build the required infrastructure so it worked (and indeed infrastructure was built that worsened it in the form of the Ordsall Chord, a massive waste of money). Vic meanwhile is better off just taking local services which are mostly used for wholly self contained journeys, though Metrolink has taken over most of these.

 

[Greybeard33]

My personal experience is that people on that line would prefer an hourly 6.195 to Oxford Road or ideally the airport over twice an hour to Vic, though Vic isn't the backwater it once was as the city centre has moved that way a bit (but is still an utterly horrible station unfit for England's 2nd/3rd city).

It is impractical to routinely turn back a 6.195 formation at Oxford Road because of platform length restrictions (taking account of signal locations). The only platforms long enough are P2 and P4, which are both needed for through services (some of which are 6-car). A 5.195 could turn back from P3, but use of this through platform would reduce resilience in case of perturbation. A 4.195 could fit in the P5 bay, but would offer little more capacity than the current 769 or 4.15x services, which are supplemented by the hourly Southport - Stalybridge via Victoria.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is impractical to routinely turn back a 6.195 formation at Oxford Road because of platform length restrictions (taking account of signal locations). The only platforms long enough are P2 and P4, which are both needed for through services (some of which are 6-car). A 5.195 could turn back from P3, but use of this through platform would reduce resilience in case of perturbation. A 4.195 could fit in the P5 bay, but would offer little more capacity than the current 769 or 4.15x services, which are supplemented by the hourly Southport - Stalybridge via Victoria.

I'm not actually suggesting this, it was figurative to express just how much passengers from the likes of Burscough want Castlefield more than Victoria in that I very firmly believe they'd trade down to hourly to get a Castlefield service. But it's something that could have been achieved if the Windsor Link had been accompanied with the major infrastructure improvements it really needed to give something a bit more like the very comparable (but 4 tracked) Altonaer Verbindungsbahn in Hamburg. (Dammtor is basically Oxford Road to a tee - a 4 tracked and fairly busy intermediate placed to serve the university and related parts of the city).

 

[Philip]

I'm not actually suggesting this, it was figurative to express just how much passengers from the likes of Burscough want Castlefield more than Victoria in that I very firmly believe they'd trade down to hourly to get a Castlefield service. But it's something that could have been achieved if the Windsor Link had been accompanied with the major infrastructure improvements it really needed to give something a bit more like the very comparable (but 4 tracked) Altonaer Verbindungsbahn in Hamburg. (Dammtor is basically Oxford Road to a tee - a 4 tracked and fairly busy intermediate placed to serve the university and related parts of the city).

Even if both Southport services went into Victoria, it would still be an easy change at either Bolton or Salford to connect to Piccadilly or the Airport, so I don't see why the direct service from Southport is so imperative?

In relation to the original point of this thread, I'm not suggesting having the Barrow/Windermere stopping at Blackrod, Adlington and Leyland, but it really should not be skipping Salford Crescent at all, because it serves a large inner suburb area; serves the university and because of the available rail connections. Ideally a couple of peak services should also stop at Horwich & Buckshaw, because of the park & ride, and the large catchment area these stations serve.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Even if both Southport services went into Victoria, it would still be an easy change at either Bolton or Salford to connect to Piccadilly or the Airport, so I don't see why the direct service from Southport is so imperative?

Because it isn't Switzerland (nor does it have the frequency of the Tube or Metrolink) so connections can't be trusted.

In CH, Salford Crescent would be two islands, one for each direction, with flyovers as necessary so each half hour a Blackpool to Airport via Bolton would pull into P2 simultaneously to a Southport to Vic via Atherton pulling into P1, both spacious six to eight car electric trains. They'd pause for a couple of minutes to exchange passengers both ways, then depart together to their destination. The same in the other direction from Picc/Vic in 3/4.

Then, and only then, we could sensibly move away from the Northern "hourly direct from everywhere to everywhere" model.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Even if both Southport services went into Victoria, it would still be an easy change at either Bolton or Salford to connect to Piccadilly or the Airport, so I don't see why the direct service from Southport is so imperative?

In relation to the original point of this thread, I'm not suggesting having the Barrow/Windermere stopping at Blackrod, Adlington and Leyland, but it really should not be skipping Salford Crescent at all, because it serves a large inner suburb area; serves the university and because of the available rail connections. Ideally a couple of peak services should also stop at Horwich & Buckshaw, because of the park & ride, and the large catchment area these stations serve.

Problem is, Phillip, that the units on the Cumbrian services are already overcrowded as it is. There aren't any spare Class 195s to extend them either. Perhaps if Carnforth to Barrow/Oxenholme to Windermere was electrified, it would work because there are spare EMUs around.
But without that, it's going to be near impossible.

 

[cle]

I prefer pairing - so if 2tph go to Blackpool, do it from the same station. Most of the demand is to Manchester and so frequency is more important than Horwich having both Oxenholme and Barrow or Blackpool services. But then maybe the Scotland and the Cumbria need to be together too. Except they are quite different stock, traction etc - and if via Wigan, maybe a call could be dropped from another WCML service to speed that up.

Preston-Bolton-Manchester could stand up a 2tph shuttle, beyond services to Blackpool and Blackburn.

Southport is the least important pair/pattern.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Via Wigan is considerably slower so sending the Cumbria that way wouldn't be a good idea.

The main thing that was needed has happened (but sadly seems will partly unhappen on the Blackpools) - to max out the train lengths. The only other thing I'd look to do is tweak timetables on the Cumbria services to fit with what passengers want - for instance, it's silly that the first Manchester-Windermere is 0850 arriving at 1053 - that's way too late for a decent day out. It'd be better having the 0750 go to Windermere instead rather than doggedly sticking to a three hour pattern (which is too common on infrequent services - I've posted before that on the Conwy Valley a more useful timetable could easily be designed that actually has one fewer round trip - Takt only makes sense on services that are hourly or better.

 

[Some guy]

I’m all for that Preston and Manchester Victoria being or even further to Rochdale open up more direct services between them or if possible could extend further into West Yorkshire

 

[BrianW]

My personal view was that the Windsor Link was the right thing to do, as was consolidating on Picc, but that there was a massive failure to build the required infrastructure so it worked (and indeed infrastructure was built that worsened it in the form of the Ordsall Chord, a massive waste of money). Vic meanwhile is better off just taking local services which are mostly used for wholly self contained journeys, though Metrolink has taken over most of these.

Pre-echos (?) of HS2 in Ordsall Curve/ Castlefield // to Handsacre and not beyond?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Pre-echos (?) of HS2 in Ordsall Curve/ Castlefield // to Handsacre and not beyond?

I'd say so. If you don't do it all you just create problems for later. In IT we call it "technical debt" - borrowing development time from the future by doing a partial or slapdash solution for short term gain, and the interest is costly!

 

[Senex]

Pre-echos (?) of HS2 in Ordsall Curve/ Castlefield // to Handsacre and not beyond?

Very much so — but rather typical of modern Britain for many years now.

 

[RAPC]

Even if both Southport services went into Victoria, it would still be an easy change at either Bolton or Salford to connect to Piccadilly or the Airport, so I don't see why the direct service from Southport is so imperative?

In relation to the original point of this thread, I'm not suggesting having the Barrow/Windermere stopping at Blackrod, Adlington and Leyland, but it really should not be skipping Salford Crescent at all, because it serves a large inner suburb area; serves the university and because of the available rail connections. Ideally a couple of peak services should also stop at Horwich & Buckshaw, because of the park & ride, and the large catchment area these stations serve.

I'm reliably informed by Northern staff at Leyland, that on the engineering days when the Barrow/Windermere services start from Bolton and stop all stations, Leyland has the most ticket sales for stations north of Preston. There has also been a shift back in passengers from Buckshaw to Leyland after parking charges were implemented recently.
The biggest challenge with Leyland stops has always been around fitting a stop in to the WCML timetable. Northern managed to restore the last few Blackpool services that didn't stop there ex-Manchester, so now Leyland, Buckshaw and Horwich work to the same stopping pattern.