In my opinion e-tickets are not a national standard

[infobleep]

Yep, by no means defending the advance system, just that's the reasoning someone from GWR told me. To be fair to them GWR doesn't control how advances work, so it is more of an issue at the government level.

This is why the DfT needs to be made aware of issues like this but TOCs as that surely must have some bearing in any ticket system in the future. Or doesn't the DfT care?

It's impossible to provide "broad information on where E-Tickets are available" and it'd be foolish to try. E-Ticket availability varies by both flow and ticket type.



Can confirm it isn't.



This map:

1. Has incorrect, outdated/plain wrong data
2. Is overly simplified - if you take it literally, it seems to be implying there are 5 ticket types which is nonsense
3. Refers to the TOC "Virgin Trains": "Valid only on Virgin Trains services" - seriously?

The entire site should be retired and thrown in the bin.

That list is wrong.

But at least it's official.

On a wider point following the discussion of the horribly outdated smart ticketing map: Does anyone actually care about *.nationalrail.co.uk? Has it had any investment in the last decade?

How are we at a point where the UK doesn't have a decent web presence for its own railway system and where you get better quality information from third-party retailers or TOCs?
Why have pages from the iKB somehow become available on the main National Rail site and indexed by Google?! You literally could not make this up.

It's all very poor.

Third-party Web Sites might be more accurate but they are not official.

I mean it has, but the progress appears to be quite slow.

New National Rail website

It seems that a new National Rail website is starting to roll out, some pages such as https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/on-the-train/ have changed over to the new design. As Great British Railways (GBR) is meant to replace the National Rail and TOC sites I thought we might have to wait for that but...

www.railforums.co.uk

The people who hold the purse strings perhaps don't care or if they do they just don't have a budget. Whoever controls the budget perhaps doesn't see it as important.

 

[Haywain]

But at least it's official

Is it?

Third-party Web Sites might be more accurate but they are not official.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Is it?

I think you missed the sarcasm font

 

[sheff1]

Is it?

"we are the definitive source of customer information for all passenger rail services on the National Rail network in England, Wales and Scotland."

Surely no one is suggesting the definitive source is wrong.

 

[Alex365Dash]

Surely no one is suggesting the definitive source is wrong.

The definitive source does not match the definitive industry data, RCS, of which formats a ticket can be fulfilled to.

Surely nobody is suggesting the definitive industry data is wrong…and the Trainline doesn’t count!

 

[Bletchleyite]

"we are the definitive source of customer information for all passenger rail services on the National Rail network in England, Wales and Scotland."

Surely no one is suggesting the definitive source is wrong.

Wouldn't be the first time.

 

[Haywain]

"we are the definitive source of customer information for all passenger rail services on the National Rail network in England, Wales and Scotland."

Surely no one is suggesting the definitive source is wrong.

I thought the list referred to was the one on the Trainline site.

 

[Alex365Dash]

I thought the list referred to was the one on the Trainline site.

It’s the NRE Smart Ticketing Map in post #774.

 

[Wallsendmag]

It’s the NRE Smart Ticketing Map in post #774.

No it was most definately Trainline who don't even use RCS

 

[Alex365Dash]

No it was most definately Trainline who don't even use RCS

On reflection, I think this conversation’s been muddled a bit and it’s unclear which one people are referring to!

The point is:
- Trainline’s list will be inaccurate because they don’t use RCS to determine which ticket formats they can sell
- NRE’s list is also inaccurate (one example is eTickets not being listed as available for Anytime tickets between Cardiff and Hereford) so we can infer the map doesn’t use RCS either

 

[jayah]

It's impossible to provide "broad information on where E-Tickets are available" and it'd be foolish to try. E-Ticket availability varies by both flow and ticket type.

It is perfectly possible. Trainline did it.

Some flows, all flows, most flows.
Advance tickets, off peak tickets, Anytime tickets.

Its not rocket science.

Of course if e-tickets were national and standard, it wouldn't be necessary.

 

[Adam Williams]

It is perfectly possible. Trainline did it.

Trainline is not really a shining example when it comes to E-Ticket availability, as others have previously explained.

Advance tickets, off peak tickets, Anytime tickets.

And what about when it's available on some Advances priced by TOC A and not others that happen to be priced by PTE B? What about where it's inconsistent across flows? How're you going to explain the different off-peak tickets available without referencing the ticket type codes and routes/origin/destination?

It will have to be a simplification, and it will give an inaccurate view of the realities of E-Ticket availability.

Of course if e-tickets were national and standard,

You seem to have a very strange definition of the word "standard". E-Tickets are standardised, implementers have to follow a set of rules to create and validate tickets.

I'm curious, do you think PRT is a "national and standard" fulfillment type?

 

[jayah]

Trainline is not really a shining example when it comes to E-Ticket availability, as others have previously explained.



And what about when it's available on some Advances priced by TOC A and not others that happen to be priced by PTE B? What about where it's inconsistent across flows? How're you going to explain the different off-peak tickets available without referencing the ticket type codes and routes/origin/destination?

It will have to be a simplification, and it will give an inaccurate view of the realities of E-Ticket availability.



You seem to have a very strange definition of the word "standard". E-Tickets are standardised, implementers have to follow a set of rules to create and validate tickets.

I'm curious, do you think PRT is a "national and standard" fulfillment type?

We were not discussing buying e-tickets, we were discussing how to get a view of how widely they were available. They way they presented that information is spot on, with disappearing into minute detail.

As you can see, e-tickets are not national, there are huge gaps in where they are offered.

E-tickets are a standard, but not the standard. More like ios vs android. Some very obscure products and interfaces in this world have rules and standards. That doesn't make them standard for customers.

M-tickets are in fact much more widely available than e-tickets, if you can find a retailer that sells them, but some people don't want acknowledge this. It is very difficult to compare the coverage of the two if you start at the lowest level of detail.

Debates about other matters e.g. PRT or the National Speed Limit are irrelevant.

 

[Adam Williams]

M-tickets are in fact much more widely available than e-tickets

But this is false. Alistair has told you this, based on an analysis of the flows enabled in the data in RCS. I 100% agree with him, based on the same dataset.

 

[MikeWh]

E-tickets are a standard, but not the standard. More like ios vs android.

So, what is the standard for rail ticketing?

And while we're about it, what is the standard for smartphone operating systems?

 

[jayah]

But this is false. Alistair has told you this, based on an analysis of the flows enabled in the data in RCS. I 100% agree with him, based on the same dataset.

Produce the evidence.

Based on the Trainline guide to digital ticket availability it is clear to me that m-tickets are more widely available.

It is noted that many 'flows' are enabled for e-tickets and m-tickets but only the former on certain tickets types like Advance that are not widely used.

 

[Wallsendmag]

It is perfectly possible. Trainline did it.

Some flows, all flows, most flows.
Advance tickets, off peak tickets, Anytime tickets.

Its not rocket science.

Of course if e-tickets were national and standard, it wouldn't be necessary.

Until very recently it was part of my role to control the eTicket enablement for LNER, listen when I say the Trainline list isn't correct or do you somehow know better? RSPS3030: 'Ticketing Specification - eTicket' would appear to be a national standard by most people's standards

 

[jayah]

So, what is the standard for rail ticketing?

And while we're about it, what is the standard for smartphone operating systems?

There should be one standard for QR code tickets, but there isn't there are m-tickets and e-tickets. They are different. Some websites sell one kind, some both.

Nor is there a standard smartphone OS and it would also be much better if there were.

It would be an improvement if we had a standard smartphone charging adaptor. But there isn't one of those either.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Produce the evidence.

Based on the Trainline guide to digital ticket availability it is clear to me that m-tickets are more widely available.

It is noted that many 'flows' are enabled for e-tickets and m-tickets but only the former on certain tickets types like Advance that are not widely use

Do you really think Advance tickets aren't widely used? Come and stand at the Newcastle gateline next weekend and see how many customers are holding Advance eTickets

There should be one standard for QR code tickets, but there isn't there are m-tickets and e-tickets. They are different. Some websites sell one kind, some both.

Nor is there a standard smartphone OS and it would also be much better if there were.

It would be an improvement if we had a standard smartphone charging adaptor. But there isn't one of those either.

You haven't seen the EU directive about USB-C then?

 

[jayah]

Until very recently it was part of my role to control the eTicket enablement for LNER, listen when I say the Trainline list isn't correct or do you somehow know better? RSPS3030: 'Ticketing Specification - eTicket' would appear to be a national standard by most people's standards

That is irrelevant to a customer. The beetamax video recorder will also have had a standard, with specifications etc... but it wasn't ever the standard.

The railway needs to stop talking to itself and start talking to its customers.

I can only work with the information I have, if you say the Trainline guide to digital ticket availability is wrong, produce evidence.

When I used the alternative website where you enter two stations they agreed that for Chester to Llandudno you could get m-tickets on all Anytime, Off Peak and Advance but e-tickets on Advance only. That is two sources saying the same thing.

You could even help the confused customer and put your information in the public domain, as Trainline appear to be the only ones who have even tried to untangle this incredible complexity at that level of detail (not minute).

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Could we perhaps agree to disagree? This is getting a little tedious.

 

[jayah]

Do you really think Advance tickets aren't widely used? Come and stand at the Newcastle gateline next weekend and see how many customers are holding Advance eTickets

If m-tickets are available on Anytime, Off Peak and Advance in Wales and e-tickets only on Advance, then to a customer rather than someone with a very weak argument, m-tickets are far more widely available.

If you can find a retailer who sells them of course, which rather illustrates the problem.

 

[Haywain]

M-tickets are in fact much more widely available than e-tickets, if you can find a retailer that sells them

You can't even agree with yourself. This is ludicrous!

 

[Adam Williams]

There should be one standard for QR code tickets, but there isn't there are m-tickets and e-tickets. They are different. Some websites sell one kind, some both.

Neither of these standards involve QR codes.

 

[alistairlees]

Produce the evidence.

Based on the Trainline guide to digital ticket availability it is clear to me that m-tickets are more widely available.

It is noted that many 'flows' are enabled for e-tickets and m-tickets but only the former on certain tickets types like Advance that are not widely used.

You need to get a grip on a few things:
- one page on one website is not something you can necessarily draw conclusions from
- I (and several other posters on here) have access to the actual raw data regarding ticket type fulfilment, so we know what we are talking about, and we are absolutely correct that eTickets are more widely available than m-tickets. We are not going to share the data publicly, though.
- public adoption, usage of and satisfaction with eTickets far outstrips that of any other ticket type now; an example of successful collaboration between independent retailers, TOCs and RDG.
- we are fully aware that there are gaps and issues and are working to fix those with industry partners. I have already explained the gaps, and how and when they are being filled, to you in previous posts.

 

[Jurg]

You need to get a grip on a few things:
- one page on one website is not something you can necessarily draw conclusions from
- I (and several other posters on here) have access to the actual raw data regarding ticket type fulfilment, so we know what we are talking about, and we are absolutely correct that eTickets are more widely available than m-tickets. We are not going to share the data publicly, though.
- public adoption, usage of and satisfaction with eTickets far outstrips that of any other ticket type now; an example of successful collaboration between independent retailers, TOCs and RDG.
- we are fully aware that there are gaps and issues and are working to fix those with industry partners. I have already explained the gaps, and how and when they are being filled, to you in previous posts.

You and your colleagues have done more than enough to explain the situation. Time to stop engaging with the troll.

 

[yorkie]

That is irrelevant to a customer. The beetamax video recorder will also have had a standard, with specifications etc... but it wasn't ever the standard.

I thought your view was that "debates about other matters e.g. PRT or the National Speed Limit are irrelevant"?

The railway needs to stop talking to itself and start talking to its customers.

My understanding is that there are many people in the rail industry who do listen to customers; the vast majority customers want e-tickets, not m-tickets or old style paper tickets.

Therefore, e-tickets are being implemented accordingly.

A few TOCs have been dragging their feet, which is frustrating to everyone. But my understanding is that all TOCs are now finally moving forward and agreeing to move to the e-ticket format.

Some of the worst offenders have been Scotrail, TfW, Greater Anglia and Merseyrail. I would suggest your frustration is directed towards those TOCs who have been resisting e-tickets.

I can only work with the information I have, if you say the Trainline guide to digital ticket availability is wrong, produce evidence.

The evidence is available in RCS, which is an industry system which people who work within the railway ticketing industry have access to.

I can vouch for the identity of most of the people you are disagreeing with as people who work within the industry; in contrast, you appear to be someone who is not familiar with industry systems and instead takes some basic text on one particular retailer's website out of context and as an authoritative list.

If you don't want to listen to what those within the industry have to say, then that is your choice; we are lucky to have so many experts and industry insiders on this forum and others reading this thread can make up their own minds as to who or what to believe.

You could even help the confused customer and put your information in the public domain, as Trainline appear to be the only ones who have even tried to untangle this incredible complexity at that level of detail (not minute).

If you are asking for RCS data to be put in the public domain, I suggest you direct that request to ATOC (trading as Rail Delivery Group).

M-tickets are in fact much more widely available than e-tickets, if you can find a retailer that sells them,...

You are contradicting yourself here.

The majority of tickets these days are issued as e-tickets. Not m-tickets (or paper roll tickets, for that matter).

 

[ainsworth74]

If m-tickets are available on Anytime, Off Peak and Advance in Wales and e-tickets only on Advance, then to a customer rather than someone with a very weak argument, m-tickets are far more widely available.

Apart from the fact that, er, they are available for flexible tickets for journeys in Wales on TfW...


(Image shows a booking page from RailUK tickets for the 1256 Cardiff to Swansea TfW service with a Off-Peak Day Return selected as the ticket type and a tooltip saying "E-Ticket available" showing)

 

[yorkie]

It's great to see those TOCs who have dragged their feet over e-tickets for the past few years finally adopting the standard

 

[ainsworth74]

You could even help the confused customer and put your information in the public domain, as Trainline appear to be the only ones who have even tried to untangle this incredible complexity at that level of detail (not minute).

What's complex? It seems like you're the only person that's having a problem (and I'm not sure why) and that's despite the efforts of multiple people who are intimately familar with what's being discussed taking time out to try and help you understand.