In which other countries is fare evasion criminal

[satinstaller]

As the subject says, are there any other countries that make not paying or having a ticket a criminal offence. I suspect that the Ex colonies and Ireland inherited this from the UK, but, I do not know of any other for example European Countries in which this is the case. Any information.

 

[mikeg]

In Ireland it definitely is, and is referred to in the Irish rail conditions of carriage, including for split ticketing which is banned over there.
A quick look on the net shows that certain US states class fare evasion on certain modes as a misdemeanor, whilst others do not.

 

[AlterEgo]

As the subject says, are there any other countries that make not paying or having a ticket a criminal offence. I suspect that the Ex colonies and Ireland inherited this from the UK, but, I do not know of any other for example European Countries in which this is the case. Any information.

Many parts of the USA have fare evasion as an offence.

 

[ta-toget]

In Norway, it does not appear to be a criminal offence, though the Railways do have the ability to levy a fee, and to detain someone until such time as their details (name, address, DOB) have been taken and verified. This fee is set by the appropriate level of government for the particular operation, and can be levied against children (I believe that ordinary debt is only for adults). The law states that children under 15 should not be detained.

In France, it appears to be illegal, and punishable with a fine (currently up to €450).

 

[contrex]

In France, you would get penalties of 50 euros (you have a ticket but it not composté), the same sum for travel without a ticket under 150 km. or 150 euros plus the price of the ticket if over 150 km. These sums are payable at once to the SNCF official. If you don't do that, you will get a procès-verbal (a criminal charge) and be liable to pay a fine. If you don't pay that with 3 months, it increased up to around 400 euros. If you have left multiple penalties unpaid, (5 or more in 12 months) it can move to a prosecution for habitual fraud (6 months in prison and 7,500 euros fine). If you give a false address or use fake ID, there's a 3,750 euro fine.

 

[185143]

In Ireland it definitely is, and is referred to in the Irish rail conditions of carriage, including for split ticketing which is banned over there.
A quick look on the net shows that certain US states class fare evasion on certain modes as a misdemeanor, whilst others do not.

How does that work if you want to extend your journey? Say you had a Limerick Junction-Dublun return and wanted to return to Cork? Or even had a season for part of the route.

 

[30907]

Here's an older thread:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-dealt-with-abroad-compared-to-the-uk.177639/
And another:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...he-harshest-in-the-world.194260/#post-4265214

 

[nanstallon]

Many parts of the USA have fare evasion as an offence.

The USA is an ex-British colony!

 

[Haywain]

The USA is an ex-British colony!

230 years ago - a long time before railways.

 

[mikeg]

How does that work if you want to extend your journey? Say you had a Limerick Junction-Dublun return and wanted to return to Cork? Or even had a season for part of the route.

Agreed it's a bonkers rule. Here's what the CoC has to say for Irish Rail:

11. Re-booking at intermediate stations 11.1 Except where specially authorised, passengers are not permitted to re-book at an intermediate station for the purpose of continuing their journey by the same train. Two or more tickets covering different portions of one journey are not available unless the fares paid for such tickets are equivalent in amount to the price of a single journey ticket between the same points. Any passenger using two or more tickets covering different portions of one journey will be liable to pay the full ordinary single fare for the journey made and he or she may be liable to prosecution.

I suppose since a season is more expensive than the single journey would be, this would just about be allowed. Maybe. Might actually depend on the T&Cs of the season itself, see the 'specially authorised'.

Not only that, but starting and finishing short is not allowed:

10. Using tickets from any other stations 10.1 Subject to Condition 8, any passenger using a ticket for any station, either beyond or short of that for which the ticket is valid will be liable to pay the full ordinary single fare for the journey made and he or she may be liable to prosecution.

Although the aforementioned condition 8 allows break of journey, provided the journey is completed within the same day. Irish Rail do seem quite backwards when it comes to customer service and as much as I'm pro-nationalisation, it dispels the myth that nationalised operations are automatically more passenger friendly when it comes to rights such as these.

If you're interested you can read the entire conditions here.

 

[AlterEgo]

The USA is an ex-British colony!

A small part of it is, yes.

 

[island]

How does that work if you want to extend your journey? Say you had a Limerick Junction-Dublun return and wanted to return to Cork? Or even had a season for part of the route.

You can get an excess fare if you find a suitably trained clerk.

Agreed it's a bonkers rule. Here's what the CoC has to say for Irish Rail:



I suppose since a season is more expensive than the single journey would be, this would just about be allowed. Maybe. Might actually depend on the T&Cs of the season itself, see the 'specially authorised'.

The rules aren't really enforced in practice and splitting tickets is rarely cheaper anyway, other than edge cases involving the maximum fare in the Dublin "short hop" zone.

IÉ clerks have been more than happy in the past to sell me a return ticket by way of extension to my season ticket. Indeed, one proactively offered me a split on an Enniscorthy to Belfast trip.

Not only that, but starting and finishing short is not allowed:

This is slightly more enforced in certain locations – for example, Heuston to Tipperary which must go via Limerick Junction is cheaper than Heuston to Limerick Junction, because Tipperary only gets 2 trains per day in each direction; and Cork to Rosslare Strand which must go via Dublin is cheaper than Cork to Dublin because the fare is calculated on the route via Campile which closed in 2010. An alert ticket inspector would probably pick up on someone travelling on a train that won't make the required connection.

Although the aforementioned condition 8 allows break of journey, provided the journey is completed within the same day. Irish Rail do seem quite backwards when it comes to customer service and as much as I'm pro-nationalisation, it dispels the myth that nationalised operations are automatically more passenger friendly when it comes to rights such as these.

If you're interested you can read the entire conditions here.

There is a substantial "ah you're grand" discount to be added to the conditions

 

[nanstallon]

...

This is slightly more enforced in certain locations – for example, Heuston to Tipperary which must go via Limerick Junction is cheaper than Heuston to Limerick Junction, because Tipperary only gets 2 trains per day in each direction; and Cork to Rosslare Strand which must go via Dublin is cheaper than Cork to Dublin because the fare is calculated on the route via Campile which closed in 2010. An alert ticket inspector would probably pick up on someone travelling on a train that won't make the required connection.

There is a substantial "ah you're grand" discount to be added to the conditions

So an enthusiast who just wants to travel all the lines would do well to book Cork to Rosslare, in terms of mileage for his money.

Other than that, a lot depends on whether there is a gate/manual ticket check on leaving a station where you've got off short of ticket destination.

 

[island]

So an enthusiast who just wants to travel all the lines would do well to book Cork to Rosslare, in terms of mileage for his money.

Probably. Or the 4 day trekker (all line rover) for €110, though I think that's been taken off sale until further notice to discourage discretionary travel.

Other than that, a lot depends on whether there is a gate/manual ticket check on leaving a station where you've got off short of ticket destination.

Indeed.

 

[The exile]

Back to the original question - Germany, though criminal proceedings are unlikely for the first offence.

 

[matt_world2004]

How does that work if you want to extend your journey? Say you had a Limerick Junction-Dublun return and wanted to return to Cork? Or even had a season for part of the route.

I suppose a split ticket wouldn't be detected if the train calls at the stop where you split.

 

[najaB]

As the subject says, are there any other countries that make not paying or having a ticket a criminal offence.

Not having a ticket and fare evasion are two different things. Deliberate fare evasion will be classified as fraud and treated as such pretty much everywhere.

I know someone who received a criminal record in Germany for "dishonestly obtaining public services" over an rail ticket incident.

 

[satinstaller]

Here's an older thread:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-dealt-with-abroad-compared-to-the-uk.177639/
And another:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...he-harshest-in-the-world.194260/#post-4265214

The focus of this query is perhaps been moved. In which countries will you get a criminal record for not traveling with a ticket. which is the offence. It is likely Ireland and the ex-colonies (except USA) will have inherited laws from the UK. But what about else where in Europe. We have one post concerning Germany, but, the offence is getting conflated with fraud.

 

[miklcct]

I suppose a split ticket wouldn't be detected if the train calls at the stop where you split.

It can be detected by requiring everyone who uses single journey tickets to pass through the ticket barrier to activate the ticket, but it may not prevent a passenger running out of a train at a station, getting out and in using two tickets, and running back to the train again, unless the station layout means that it is impossible to physically run from the platform to the ticket barrier and back in the dwell time of the train.

For example, in Hong Kong, tickets are encoded with the ticket value only, and split ticketing always require physically getting off the train, get through the barrier, and return again. For example, most long distance journeys starting at Lo Wu / Lok Ma Chau are cheaper splitting en-route, so in the past commuters generally prepare two Octopus cards, board at the correct carriage such that they can access the gates at platform level in the minimum time, and when the train stops at Sheung Shui, a crowd runs out of the train, touch out using one card and touch in using another card, and run back into the train. This can be done within the dwell time of 20 seconds. (The gate is programmed such that a touched-out card needs to wait for one minute to touch in again, which is too long to get back onto the same train)

If this is done with single journey tickets, it also require passing through gates as all stations are gated.

 

[matt_world2004]

It can be detected by requiring everyone who uses single journey tickets to pass through the ticket barrier to activate the ticket, but it may not prevent a passenger running out of a train at a station, getting out and in using two tickets, and running back to the train again, unless the station layout means that it is impossible to physically run from the platform to the ticket barrier and back in the dwell time of the train.

For example, in Hong Kong, tickets are encoded with the ticket value only, and split ticketing always require physically getting off the train, get through the barrier, and return again. For example, most long distance journeys starting at Lo Wu / Lok Ma Chau are cheaper splitting en-route, so in the past commuters generally prepare two Octopus cards, board at the correct carriage such that they can access the gates at platform level in the minimum time, and when the train stops at Sheung Shui, a crowd runs out of the train, touch out using one card and touch in using another card, and run back into the train. This can be done within the dwell time of 20 seconds. (The gate is programmed such that a touched-out card needs to wait for one minute to touch in again, which is too long to get back onto the same train)

If this is done with single journey tickets, it also require passing through gates as all stations are gated.

Does this happen in Ireland. From my experience very few stations have barriers.

 

[miklcct]

If that's true then the railway company needs to install them. If stations are barriered ticket evasion will be low anyway that we don't need a lot of people to check tickets, and short-faring can be mostly eliminated as well because ticket won't open the "out" barrier if it is not used at an "in" barrier.

In terms of safety, an unmanned station with barrier is designed in a way that CCTV operates and monitored remotely 24/7, a help phone with camera is located to resolve ticketing problems, an "emergency exit" button which releases all barriers and calls the police automatically, and designed in a way that the barrier will be left open in case of electricity or network outage, where staff can make the appropriate action to allow travelling without validated ticket for those affected.

Once all stations are barriered, ticket checks will focus on mainly travelling on wrong tickets (such as adult travelling with child ticket), and these are more serious offences which should be prosecuted anyway (as fraud), rather than careless mistakes (as it takes intent to buy a wrong ticket, rather than just mere negligence). Combined with making all physical railcard smart-cards, this can virtually eliminate all so-called "excuses" of forgetting to buy a ticket / forgetting to renew your railcard / etc.

Do the railway companies really think that the cost of installing one ticket vending machine (or a promise-to-pay machine for the smallest stations, where trains serving these stations will be operated as pay-trains) and two barriers at each exit in each small station to make the system fully barriered will be more than employing Revenue Protection Inspectors to check tickets on a significant proportion and the fare evaded? Although ticket checks will still be needed in First Class carriages.

 

[island]

Does this happen in Ireland. From my experience very few stations have barriers.

Actually, almost all Dublin stations as well as many intercity stations are barriered.

 

[The exile]

Not having a ticket and fare evasion are two different things. Deliberate fare evasion will be classified as fraud and treated as such pretty much everywhere.

I know someone who received a criminal record in Germany for "dishonestly obtaining public services" over an rail ticket incident.

There are plenty of areas (penalty fares areas here, Verkehrsverbuende in Germany) where they are treated the same. No ticket = (officially) fare evasion.

 

[berneyarms]

If that's true then the railway company needs to install them. If stations are barriered ticket evasion will be low anyway that we don't need a lot of people to check tickets, and short-faring can be mostly eliminated as well because ticket won't open the "out" barrier if it is not used at an "in" barrier.

In terms of safety, an unmanned station with barrier is designed in a way that CCTV operates and monitored remotely 24/7, a help phone with camera is located to resolve ticketing problems, an "emergency exit" button which releases all barriers and calls the police automatically, and designed in a way that the barrier will be left open in case of electricity or network outage, where staff can make the appropriate action to allow travelling without validated ticket for those affected.

Once all stations are barriered, ticket checks will focus on mainly travelling on wrong tickets (such as adult travelling with child ticket), and these are more serious offences which should be prosecuted anyway (as fraud), rather than careless mistakes (as it takes intent to buy a wrong ticket, rather than just mere negligence). Combined with making all physical railcard smart-cards, this can virtually eliminate all so-called "excuses" of forgetting to buy a ticket / forgetting to renew your railcard / etc.

Do the railway companies really think that the cost of installing one ticket vending machine (or a promise-to-pay machine for the smallest stations, where trains serving these stations will be operated as pay-trains) and two barriers at each exit in each small station to make the system fully barriered will be more than employing Revenue Protection Inspectors to check tickets on a significant proportion and the fare evaded? Although ticket checks will still be needed in First Class carriages.

The chances of all Irish Rail stations having barriers are zero.

They’re in place in Dublin and the surrounding areas, and in Cork, but the notion of rural stations like Cahir or Farranfore having barriers is ludicrous.

I would suggest that you need to expand your horizons significantly and actually understand what rural life is like is these islands!

 

[Haywain]

The chances of all Irish Rail stations having barriers are zero.

They’re in place in Dublin and the surrounding areas, and in Cork, but the notion of rural stations like Cahir or Farranfore having barriers is ludicrous.

I would suggest that you need to expand your horizons significantly and actually understand what rural life is like is these islands!

Yep, it's the same as large parts of Scotland and Wales and quite a lot of England.

 

[The exile]

If that's true then the railway company needs to install them. If stations are barriered ticket evasion will be low anyway that we don't need a lot of people to check tickets, and short-faring can be mostly eliminated as well because ticket won't open the "out" barrier if it is not used at an "in" barrier.

In terms of safety, an unmanned station with barrier is designed in a way that CCTV operates and monitored remotely 24/7, a help phone with camera is located to resolve ticketing problems, an "emergency exit" button which releases all barriers and calls the police automatically, and designed in a way that the barrier will be left open in case of electricity or network outage, where staff can make the appropriate action to allow travelling without validated ticket for those affected.

Once all stations are barriered, ticket checks will focus on mainly travelling on wrong tickets (such as adult travelling with child ticket), and these are more serious offences which should be prosecuted anyway (as fraud), rather than careless mistakes (as it takes intent to buy a wrong ticket, rather than just mere negligence). Combined with making all physical railcard smart-cards, this can virtually eliminate all so-called "excuses" of forgetting to buy a ticket / forgetting to renew your railcard / etc.

Do the railway companies really think that the cost of installing one ticket vending machine (or a promise-to-pay machine for the smallest stations, where trains serving these stations will be operated as pay-trains) and two barriers at each exit in each small station to make the system fully barriered will be more than employing Revenue Protection Inspectors to check tickets on a significant proportion and the fare evaded? Although ticket checks will still be needed in First Class carriages.

An expression involving sledgehammers and nuts comes to mind!