Incident at Rotherham Central 06/04

[DanTrain]

Hi, just heard this from a friend who was on the 2C74 Hull to Sheffield Northern service. Apparently on arrival at Rotherham Central the platform was full of Notting Forest supporters who had just lost at Rotherham.

The guard didn’t initially release the doors and the Forest supporters started banging on the train demanding to be let on. Bearing in mind this was a pacer and these were large football fans, this was quite frightening on the inside.

The guard took the decision not to open the doors and after around 5 mins gave the right away, not letting anyone off either on safety grounds.

The police were standing at the top of the steps watching, apparently one officer asked the guard to open the doors but the guard stood his ground.

Not only was this a frightening experience for many on the train, it also delayed/inconvenienced a lot of people, largely due to the inadequate/non-existant policing. Interested what people think?

 

[Andyh82]

In what way was today’s fixture different from any of the other ones that will take place every other Saturday at Rotherham and presumably generates heavy numbers of passengers?

 

[yorkie]

In what way was today’s fixture different from any of the other ones that will take place every other Saturday at Rotherham and presumably generates heavy numbers of passengers?

I don't think there was anything "different" about today's fixture.

 

[Jonfun]

The police were standing at the top of the steps watching

One of the biggest complaints from traincrew is when faced with gangs of football hooligans that the police just stand back and watch. If the police can't control them on a station then one conductor on their own won't be able to on the train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If he gave the right away, did he do so with them near or in contact with the train? While his options were limited, that seems a high-risk choice.

 

[Mag_seven]

Not only was this a frightening experience for many on the train, it also delayed/inconvenienced a lot of people, largely due to the inadequate/non-existant policing.

I would agree that some sort of crowd control procedure should have been in place.

 

[DanTrain]

If he gave the right away, did he do so with them near or in contact with the train? While his options were limited, that seems a high-risk choice.

Apparently so...the crowd were still banging on the windows as the train left. I agree that sounds high risk but then what else would have been better in that situation?

 

[DanTrain]

One of the biggest complaints from traincrew is when faced with gangs of football hooligans that the police just stand back and watch. If the police can't control them on a station then one conductor on their own won't be able to on the train.

I would agree that some sort of crowd control procedure should have been in place.

The police should have controlled entrance to the station...sounded like a risk to the fans if no-one else, should never have let so many on the platform. Really BTP should be traveling without crowds like that, particularly on such a short run as Rotherham to Sheffield.

 

[ALEMASTER]

I'd be interested to know what happened next. The next Northern train looks like it was delayed at rotherham central too, however in the meantime a Sheffield bound Supertram service arrived and departed on time.

 

[221129]

Apparently so...the crowd were still banging on the windows as the train left. I agree that sounds high risk but then what else would have been better in that situation?

Sounds like a guard with a no biscuits meeting on the way.

 

[NoOnesFool]

Hi, just heard this from a friend who was on the 2C74 Hull to Sheffield Northern service. Apparently on arrival at Rotherham Central the platform was full of Notting Forest supporters who had just lost at Rotherham.

The guard didn’t initially release the doors and the Forest supporters started banging on the train demanding to be let on. Bearing in mind this was a pacer and these were large football fans, this was quite frightening on the inside.

The guard took the decision not to open the doors and after around 5 mins gave the right away, not letting anyone off either on safety grounds.

The police were standing at the top of the steps watching, apparently one officer asked the guard to open the doors but the guard stood his ground.

Not only was this a frightening experience for many on the train, it also delayed/inconvenienced a lot of people, largely due to the inadequate/non-existant policing. Interested what people think?

I think the Guard was correct to stand their ground. If these people are banging on the doors, it obviously shows intent to cause damage (not that a human fist could damage a toughened train door). If the Guard felt alarmed by the obviously threatening behaviour of these 'fans', then the police had no right to argue about letting them onboard.

 

[DanTrain]

Sounds like a guard with a no biscuits meeting on the way.

Feel sorry for him if so, what else could he have done...it’s his train after all.

I think the Guard was correct to stand their ground. If these people are banging on the doors, it obviously shows intent to cause damage (not that a human fist could damage a toughened train door). If the Guard felt alarmed by the obviously threatening behaviour of these 'fans', then the police had no right to argue about letting them onboard.

I agree...his train his call, if the police can’t handle a few football fans then it makes you worry...

 

[221129]

Feel sorry for him if so, what else could he have done...it’s his train after all.

I agree...his train his call, if the police can’t handle a few football fans then it makes you worry...

If people are making contact with the train then you do NOT allow it to move. That's just common sense.

 

[DanTrain]

If people are making contact with the train then you do NOT allow it to move. That's just common sense.

Fair point, but what should the guard have done? Call the police...who were standing there not doing anything? Stay put, delaying the railway and increasing the anxiety of those on the train (and I wouldn’t be sure a pacer would stand a good thumping anyway)?

 

[221129]

Fair point, but what should the guard have done? Call the police...who were standing there not doing anything? Stay put, delaying the railway and increasing the anxiety of those on the train (and I wouldn’t be sure a pacer would stand a good thumping anyway)?

Absolutely that's what the guard should have done. You do NOT move a train that has people in contact with it. (Unless you fancy a few years in prison)

 

[JN114]

Ultimately the people on the train were safe, even if they didn't particularly feel it at the time. On the face value of the account given here no, the train shouldn't have been moved. If it caused a riot on the platform then it may have spurred the police into acting.

To compromise safety for the pursuit of performance is unforgivable in my book. The train can sit there all night if it has to - safety, then performance. If something can't be done safely, it can't be done.

 

[Jonny]

Absolutely that's what the guard should have done. You do NOT move a train that has people in contact with it. (Unless you fancy a few years in prison)

I seem to recall that happened to a Merseyrail guard (Christopher McGee).

 

[221129]

I seem to recall that happened to a Merseyrail guard (Christopher McGee).

Precisely.

 

[Tom Quinne]

Absolutely that's what the guard should have done. You do NOT move a train that has people in contact with it. (Unless you fancy a few years in prison)

I would argue (as a former guard) that in a situation where there is a real risk of disorder, injury to passengers onboard or damage to the train leaving the platform at EXTREME caution as slow as walking pace with the Crew or at least driver watching out the cab window is the best way to proceed.

I’d uiu ban any movement of the train when anyone is in contact you open the door to potentially mass disruption by any idiot who wants to make a point ie, I’ll stand next to the train with my hand touching the closed door for a few hours at East Croydon in the rush hour!

 

[tsr]

If interlock is not broken then dispatch is not normally required on power-door stock. If this was a Pacer then it's entirely possible that the guard observed proceedings were unsafe from the cab window or inside the saloon, and that not so much as even their "local" door was opened. The train simply stopped on the platform; a decision was made not to call (which is a guard's prerogative if the platform is unsafe for any reason); train continued.

I'm absolutely not saying it's the safest thing in the world, or especially to be recommended - but if you want a change, then change the procedure for a train potentially coming to a stand at a platform alongside some lunatics who think it's OK to try to hammer the windows of anything that stops.

 

[Crossover]

(not that a human fist could damage a toughened train door)

I have seen a Pacer door get broken by a group of thugs (for want of a better term) - granted, it was closing at the time, but it took the crew some time to get it shut and locked and allow the train to move again

 

[Andyh82]

From reading the account above, I can't see why the conductor didn't let them on.

Yes, it would probably have been unpleasant on board, but no more so than any other football journey, and at least they'd all be off again in about 10 minutes.

It's not exactly unusual that if a train pulled in and didn't open the doors for a while, the passengers, especially those in high spirits, might start knocking on the doors, I don't think that means they were about to vandalise the train.

 

[tsr]

It's not exactly unusual that if a train pulled in and didn't open the doors for a while, the passengers, especially those in high spirits, might start knocking on the doors, I don't think that means they were about to vandalise the train.

Reading some of the reports from various quarters tonight, I wouldn't be surprised... almost every TOC appears to have had some football crowd violence.

 

[Tom Quinne]

None of us know how the incident unfolded, we don’t know what circumstances where nor if there were even any instructions from control not to open the doors etc.

10/10 to the guard for his/her actions.

 

[bunnahabhain]

I've had a very similar situation before. It was August bank holiday Sunday a few years ago, I had a strengthened train, originated from Mansfield Woodhouse and filled about 50% of the seats, the rest all gone by Mansfield, people were turned away at Sutton Parkway, and subsequently pull into Kirkby in Ashfield to see the length of the platform about 5 deep, easily 150-200 people there. So I opened my local door, shouted I can't possibly get anybody else on and to wait for the next train, and off we went. I made the decision that it would be unsafe to release, and provided my reasoning when questioned. Subsequently we now have an AM and a PM relief around the busiest trains to accommodate anybody left behind by the first train.

 

[Tom Quinne]

I've had a very similar situation before. It was August bank holiday Sunday a few years ago, I had a strengthened train, originated from Mansfield Woodhouse and filled about 50% of the seats, the rest all gone by Mansfield, people were turned away at Sutton Parkway, and subsequently pull into Kirkby in Ashfield to see the length of the platform about 5 deep, easily 150-200 people there. So I opened my local door, shouted I can't possibly get anybody else on and to wait for the next train, and off we went. I made the decision that it would be unsafe to release, and provided my reasoning when questioned. Subsequently we now have an AM and a PM relief around the busiest trains to accommodate anybody left behind by the first train.

Exactly, all very safe professionals doing a professional job.

 

[philthetube]

My gut feeling is that the guard should have opened the doors as instructed, and then if he felt that the behaviour was inappropriate, or there was a safety risk, either to himself or passengers, refused ti let the train proceed without appropriate police presence.

 

[43096]

None of us know how the incident unfolded, we don’t know what circumstances where nor if there were even any instructions from control not to open the doors etc.

10/10 to the guard for his/her actions.

Including you. You don’t know how the incident actually unfolded yet you jump to conclusions like everyone else on this thread.

 

[Harpers Tate]

Regardless of the rights and wrongs of the guard's actions (and I am in no position to offer any kind of judgement) there are, in my view, two sadnesses about this event as described:
1) The fact that it seems no attempt is ever made to blame the "football crowd" culture that plagues such events. It seems almost uniquely to surround football; is far more rare at other sports and/or (for example) when a music concer turns out.
2) The fact that Northern, who must surely have been possessed of the knowledge of the match, were either unwilling or unable (and it matters not which) to provide sufficient capacity. And that does extend to all sorts of other, predictable occasions when traffic is known, in advance, to be likely to highly exceed norms.

 

[DanTrain]

Regardless of the rights and wrongs of the guard's actions (and I am in no position to offer any kind of judgement) there are, in my view, two sadnesses about this event as described:
1) The fact that it seems no attempt is ever made to blame the "football crowd" culture that plagues such events. It seems almost uniquely to surround football; is far more rare at other sports and/or (for example) when a music concer turns out.
2) The fact that Northern, who must surely have been possessed of the knowledge of the match, were either unwilling or unable (and it matters not which) to provide sufficient capacity. And that does extend to all sorts of other, predictable occasions when traffic is known, in advance, to be likely to highly exceed norms.

Agreed on both counts. None of these people would act this way if they weren’t a) intoxicated and b) in a mob, and if they did they’d be arrested, so why does it become ok when they’ve been to a football match!?

As for Northern, they should be strengthening services, but it’s probably not all that easy. They’d struggle to get much in the way of extra services across the single track chord from Meadowhall and their units aren’t exactly lying around on a Saturday. Maybe a fee more tram-trains might have helped, but you’d have had to allow NR tickets on them, which might be too much cooperation between different companies!