Incorrect fare, what charge am I facing here and should I pay for a solicitor.

[Jonhardcastle]

Ill keep it brief as I can. I bought a ticket on the Trainline app from Amersham to Marylebone but got on the train sooner, a fare difference if £6.40. 1 way ticket. On the way out I was pulled aside. I gave him my details and told him what I had done. He told me to expect a letter and that they may prosecute, then looked at me and said ‘You can afford it’ disdainfully. I was boarding a flight that same day and pretty anxious about missing it so didn’t argue and was completely cooperative.

That was June 1st. I have now just received a letter. Essentially it says data from thetrainline app shows I may have avoided my rail fare on other occasions, from a period of January 1st to June 1st. It doesn’t tell me what that evidence is, or what that occasion is. It asks me to state on what days I travelled in these circumstance. I cannot answer this, I don't remember the trains I took upward of 8 months ago, let alone dates. It concludes evidence does exist to warrant a prosecution and that further action will be taken in 21 days.

How bad will my criminal record be? I am a masters student, I want to go into a career of surveying. Will this legitimately damage my prospect of a job here, that I must admit to being prosecuted for incorrect train fairs? Is there any hope of me settling here? Why haven’t they told me what evidence they have and what they’re charging me with?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Welcome to the forum! I think there are two issues here: whether this will end up in court, and if so what the impact will be on your career.

To start with whether it will end up in court, you must have some idea of whether the time you were caught was your only time short faring or whether there have been other occasions. And as well as that, if the railway can look at your old Trainline transactions, then so can you. So go back through your history for this year and see what tickets you bought. Then think hard about whether those were actually the journeys you made. Consider what evidence you might have of what you did. This will give you some idea of how much the railway might think you were cheating, and how much (if at all) you really were cheating. This in turn will give you some idea of whether your response to the railway will be to admit everything or challenge them on the facts - although from what you say you were caught and must accept that you were fare dodging on 1 June.

It’s probably obvious, but the more you have been doing this, the more likely it is to end up in court. But from what we see from posts here, if you co-operate with the railway and convince them that you will pay the right fare going forward, they may be prepared to agree to let you settle this out of court. That will typically involve you paying the fares you should have paid, plus an ‘admin fee’ of a few hundred pounds. @Hadders has some excellent advice on how best to seek an out of court settlement, and they may be along shortly to let you know what that advice is.

But if the worst happens and this does go to court, what then? You would face a fine, plus compensation, plus court costs - almost certainly amounting to more than any out of court settlement. You will also have to tell anyone who has a good reason to ask about your conviction, although for most purposes this only lasts a year or so (note for the experts here - this is my summary of the rehabilitation of offenders rules. I appreciate that there’s much more detail in it). As to whether this will affect your planned career: probably not. You may have to explain to your university and potential employers about the mistake you made, but generally it’s accepted that people make some mistakes. As long as you’ve learnt not to make that mistake again, it should be taken as something that happened and which you’ve moved on from.You should also look to see what your professional body thinks (I think there’s one for surveyors). Start by looking at their website. If that doesn’t reassure you (and if they provide services to students) then see if you can ask someone.

It’s better not to have a conviction for fare dodging. But it shouldn’t be the end of the world.

 

[Jonhardcastle]

Thank you for the information and being realistic about my situation. I looked back at my Trainline purchases in the time period they specified. There is one in February that they might find suspicious, because it is a reverse of the single I bought when they detained me. I don’t see what else it could be. But I don’t see either how that alone is evidence of cheating? Nor do I see what evidence I can provide to the contrary

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm kind of confused why anyone would be pulled aside for a ticket from Amersham to Marylebone on Chiltern, they must sell thousands of those a day. Yes, Wembley Stadium would raise heckles (and the gateline may well be set to reject it), but Amersham?

Is there something else to this that hasn't been shared with us, such as that you arrived on a train that didn't stop at Amersham, thus making it really quite obvious you hadn't come from there?

If it's just one other ticket *to* Amersham I don't think I'd admit anything, just state on that occasion you travelled to Amersham. As you might well have done.

Where, in the original case, did you actually board?

(By the way, if you're actually going from Aylesbury and don't use a Network Railcard there's a split that will save you a few pence and all trains call at the station concerned - Trainline will find it, then you can obviously buy it where you like)

 

[Jonhardcastle]

I'm kind of confused why anyone would be pulled aside for a ticket from Amersham to Marylebone on Chiltern, they must sell thousands of those a day. Yes, Wembley Stadium would raise heckles (and the gateline may well be set to reject it), but Amersham?

Is there something else to this that hasn't been shared with us, such as that you arrived on a train that didn't stop at Amersham, thus making it really quite obvious you hadn't come from there?

If it's just one other ticket *to* Amersham I don't think I'd admit anything, just state on that occasion you travelled to Amersham. As you might well have done.

Where, in the original case, did you actually board?

(By the way, if you're actually going from Aylesbury and don't use a Network Railcard there's a split that will save you a few pence and all trains call at the station concerned - Trainline will find it, then you can obviously buy it where you like)

I understand how that’s confusing. Simply, when I bought the ticket on Trainline app, I was not given an online ticket. Instead, I was given a code for which I had to print out a ticket at one of the machines. So I could not exit the gate at Marylebone even though I had bought the ticket. I was explaining to the lady at the help desk, she was literally moments away from printing me a ticket, when this man pulled me aside, saying immediately “I know what you’ve done” etc.

I boarded at Stoke Mandeville.

 

[kacper]

I'm kind of confused why anyone would be pulled aside for a ticket from Amersham to Marylebone on Chiltern

That journey is available on contactless/oyster, maybe that's why they'd question an actual ticket sale for it

 

[Bletchleyite]

That journey is available on contactless/oyster, maybe that's why they'd question an actual ticket sale for it

There'll be plenty, because Network and Two Together Railcards. Just like when contactless reaches Bletchley I'll continue buying e-tickets because I'm not paying a third more to save five seconds tapping on my phone display.

The OP has explained why.

I understand how that’s confusing. Simply, when I bought the ticket on Trainline app, I was not given an online ticket. Instead, I was given a code for which I had to print out a ticket at one of the machines. So I could not exit the gate at Marylebone even though I had bought the ticket. I was explaining to the lady at the help desk, she was literally moments away from printing me a ticket, when this man pulled me aside, saying immediately “I know what you’ve done” etc.

I boarded at Stoke Mandeville.

For future reference if you buy a ticket that is for collection you must print it before boarding. There actually isn't technically even an exception for a non-working or absent* TVM at the origin in this case (you're entitled in that case to purchase a ticket at the first opportunity, not to print one already purchased), though most staff (such as the one who started printing it) are reasonable about it if so.

You could thus theoretically have been in the same position even if you'd actually boarded at Amersham (and I suspect they knew you hadn't by the fact that you'd likely not have been able to as Amersham is gated).

I'm surprised that one isn't sold as an e-ticket but it's probably to do with it being a shared route with the Tube, though tickets from further north are sold as e-tickets.

* According to the Trainline app, there is no TVM that does collection at Amersham, presumably because the one that is present is a London Underground one.

 

[WesternLancer]

It's worth the OP bearing in mind ref the accusation of other occasions, that the railway have 'got you over a barrel' here in as much as:

They have evidence (and possibly your admission) of one ticketing infringement - that is all they need to go to court and they will win on that case, the court fine, costs, criminal record etc will cost you a higher sum than if they offer to settle the matter out of court for a sum that includes other times they think you may have evaded the fare.

But

It's far better for you to aim for the least worst outcome here, which in my view is to achieve an out of court settlement offer from Chiltern or their agent (usually TI Ltd - TIL) - Chiltern do take a firm line and getting those settlements can often seem to take 2 or 3 attempts from what we see here (look over a few other thread here involving Chiltern to get an idea).

But plenty of advice will be available for you here as to how to progress this to get best outcome you can.

by the way @Jonhardcastle - if your username is actually your name you may want to get the mods to change this so you can remain anonymous as it is often suggested the railway might keep an eye on these threads.

 

[Jonhardcastle]

It's worth the OP bearing in mind ref the accusation of other occasions, that the railway have 'got you over a barrel' here in as much as:

They have evidence (and possibly your admission) of one ticketing infringement - that is all they need to go to court and they will win on that case, the court fine, costs, criminal record etc will cost you a higher sum than if they offer to settle the matter out of court for a sum that includes other times they think you may have evaded the fare.

But

It's far better for you to aim for the least worst outcome here, which in my view is to achieve an out of court settlement offer from Chiltern or their agent (usually TI Ltd - TIL) - Chiltern do take a firm line and getting those settlements can often seem to take 2 or 3 attempts from what we see here (look over a few other thread here involving Chiltern to get an idea).

But plenty of advice will be available for you here as to how to progress this to get best outcome you can.

by the way @Jonhardcastle - if your username is actually your name you may want to get the mods to change this so you can remain anonymous as it is often suggested the railway might keep an eye on these threads.

Thanks. I mean it’s not my name but I already gave enough details (as per instructions) that I think they would recognise my case if they were watching the thread..

So I write back and ask for a settlement? It’s a case of admit to another instance or get taken to court? I’d be afraid of admitting to something I didn’t do only to get taken to court anyway on a worse charge. Why would they give me an option to write down another instance instead of just telling me the instance they suspect and asking whether I cheated? Seems like a twisted game. Do they have no evidence hence they want an admission? Sorry it’s so many questions I just don’t know what to do.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Thanks. I mean it’s not my name but I already gave enough details (as per instructions) that I think they would recognise my case if they were watching the thread..

So I write back and ask for a settlement? It’s a case of admit to another instance or get taken to court? I’d be afraid of admitting to something I didn’t do only to get taken to court anyway on a worse charge. Why would they give me an option to write down another instance instead of just telling me the instance they suspect and asking whether I cheated? Seems like a twisted game. Do they have no evidence hence they want an admission? Sorry it’s so many questions I just don’t know what to do.

Look at it from the railway's point of view. You have already acknowledged one occasion of fare dodging. The railway have looked at your ticket purchasing history, and given that they know you have dodged one fare, they think that (at least some of) the other tickets that you have bought could have been for part journeys with fare dodging.

If I understand you correctly, you know you did not fare dodge <edit> on other occasions</edit>. So you now need to show why your tickets were for the full journeys.

Someone will be along in a moment to point out that if the matter goes to court, it's for the prosecution (the railway) to prove that the defendant (you) are guilty, not for you to prove that you are innocent. But you probably want to avoid this going to court. So what you want to do is to convince the railway that what they think is damning evidence is in fact in your favour and not theirs. So that means identifying all the train tickets you bought and the legitimate journeys that you made with them.

 

[fandroid]

The logic for evidence of further offences doesn't really stack up. You were caught because you'd been trapped by no e-ticket being provided, just a code for ticket collection. That indicates your lack of experience in fare -cheating! It seems from cases we have seen that they are really hot at Marylebone on trapping short fare attempts, so even if you'd done the same thing before, you would have been very lucky to have got away with it.

 

[island]

The logic for evidence of further offences doesn't really stack up. You were caught because you'd been trapped by no e-ticket being provided, just a code for ticket collection. That indicates your lack of experience in fare -cheating! It seems from cases we have seen that they are really hot at Marylebone on trapping short fare attempts, so even if you'd done the same thing before, you would have been very lucky to have got away with it.

It should also be noted that as Trainline automatically refunds uncollected ToD bookings once the ticket expires, many people have got wise to this and “pretend” that they thought it was “one of those QR code tickets [sic]” because they think if challenged the worst that’ll happen is they get told to collect the ticket and continue on their way.

 

[Danberto]

Look at it from the railway's point of view. You have already acknowledged one occasion of fare dodging. The railway have looked at your ticket purchasing history, and given that they know you have dodged one fare, they think that (at least some of) the other tickets that you have bought could have been for part journeys with fare dodging.

If I understand you correctly, you know you did not fare dodge <edit> on other occasions</edit>. So you now need to show why your tickets were for the full journeys.

Someone will be along in a moment to point out that if the matter goes to court, it's for the prosecution (the railway) to prove that the defendant (you) are guilty, not for you to prove that you are innocent. But you probably want to avoid this going to court. So what you want to do is to convince the railway that what they think is damning evidence is in fact in your favour and not theirs. So that means identifying all the train tickets you bought and the legitimate journeys that you made with them.

I think the key point to understand is that at this stage it is not a court matter and so the requirement to prove guilt that the TOC would need to do does not exist.

The amount asked for regarding evaded fares is what the TOC believes. If the person accused of fare dodging thinks the sum to not be correct they can either not pay the settlement or dispute the amount by convincing the TOC by providing evidence that particular items should not be included. In effect, they have to prove their innocence. The requirements in an informal situation are not the same as those in a formal situation.

 

[Jonhardcastle]

Can somebody let me know if this response covers everything? Is it okay to send?

 

[WesternLancer]

View attachment 143256

Can somebody let me know if this response covers everything? Is it okay to send?

I think if you can make it shorter that might help. They probably have to read lots of these.

Often on here people say do not admit other offences but you have gone down a route of being clear in order to make it clear other travel had the correct ticket, so maybe that is an OK way to go.

Tone seems good to me - ie feels genuine, fwiw.

Not a big issue but I would maybe use the word 'legitimate' for the the travel that is correct. You could say 'this was the correct ticket for the journey I took' perhaps. Tho I realise that makes it longer when I am saying to make it shorter....I suppose you could do it as a list for them which may be clearer for 'at a glance' reading eg

The following tickets relate to travel I made and the correct ticket was held:
- 26 March x - to y
- 17 April a-b
I have card purchase receipts that demonstrate I spent time in those locations if you wish to see them


Good luck with this.

 

[Jonhardcastle]

Hi guys, this is the response I received. Is there anything else for me to really do here but accept the conviction? I saw another thread here where I man had literally hundreds of confirmed occasions of dodging paying the proper fare and he still managed to get a settlement- so I’m not sure what I’m doing wrong here.

 

[furlong]

You just reply again, basically saying the same as before but using different words.
It's common to get a reply like that and to have to write again.

 

[Jonhardcastle]

You just reply again, basically saying the same as before but using different words.
It's common to get a reply like that and to have to write again.

Okay, thanks.

Also, they sent this letter to the wrong address (my old address where I lived with my parents), even though I explicitly told them in my response that my address has changed. I live in a different city in student accommodation. So I’m only reading this now even though it was delivered on September 28. I’m worried as my parents are going on holiday and may well not be home if they send the next letter to their address again. Who’s responsibility is it to get the letter?

 

[30907]

Okay, thanks.

Also, they sent this letter to the wrong address (my old address where I lived with my parents), even though I explicitly told them in my response that my address has changed. I live in a different city in student accommodation. So I’m only reading this now even though it was delivered on September 28. I’m worried as my parents are going on holiday and may well not be home if they send the next letter to their address again. Who’s responsibility is it to get the letter?

It's yours. If someone is checking up on your parents' place while they are away, could you ask them to look out for any post?

 

[Hadders]

It's quite normal for Transport Investigations Limited to send this letter in response to an initial reply. You need to send another reply - basically re-write your original reply to them. It's as though they want people to beg for a settlement.

It's poor that they sent the reply to your old address. I would point this out to them in your reply but do try and make arrangements for someone to check for post at your parents while they are away.

If you pop a copy of your draft reply in this thread we'll proof read it for you.

 

[Jonhardcastle]

It's yours. If someone is checking up on your parents' place while they are away, could you ask them to look out for any post?

No there isn’t. If they are purposefully sending letters to an address where they know I no longer live, how can I be responsible for that? Or are these letters a ‘courtesy’ that they have no obligation to send, so it doesn’t matter to them?

 

[AlterEgo]

No there isn’t. If they are purposefully sending letters to an address where they know I no longer live, how can I be responsible for that? Or are these letters a ‘courtesy’ that they have no obligation to send, so it doesn’t matter to them?

They don’t have an obligation to send them. The only document that really matters is the summons to court.

Regardless of whose responsibility it is, you absolutely need to keep an eye on your parents’ post situation in case anything else comes there. You aren’t in the strong position here, you got caught deliberately fiddling your fares and unfortunately Chiltern are one of the more prosecution-happy train companies when it comes to this sort of thing.

As @Hadders has mentioned, you should write again, but reword and re-structure the letter taking into account their reply.

 

[WesternLancer]

No there isn’t. If they are purposefully sending letters to an address where they know I no longer live, how can I be responsible for that? Or are these letters a ‘courtesy’ that they have no obligation to send, so it doesn’t matter to them?

If not other option consider a Royal Mail redirect for your post (see their website) - obv at a cost to you. But I can imagine that post received and security in a student hall of residence may not be ideal even if you get it redirected there.

 

[Jonhardcastle]

Just to conclude the thread, they fined my £100 on top of the original cost of the ticket. They didn't even read the first mitigation letter I sent to them. What a big was of time panicking over this. And what a big waste of money

 

[30907]

Just to conclude the thread, they fined my £100 on top of the original cost of the ticket. They didn't even read the first mitigation letter I sent to them. What a big was of time panicking over this. And what a big waste of money

Thanks for the update.

£100 "costs" (not a fine) and only the original fare you avoided is the least you could have expected and perhaps shows that they have noted your explanations about other fares.

 

[JBuchananGB]

And what a big waste of money

Agreed. You tried to evade paying £6.40 and it cost you over £100. Now you know how important it is ALWAYS to have paid the proper fare and have the ticket in your possession before you get on a train. That is the effect Chiltern wish to achieve.

 

[Jonhardcastle]

Thanks for the update.

£100 "costs" (not a fine) and only the original fare you avoided is the least you could have expected and perhaps shows that they have noted your explanations about other fares.

They didn’t read the explanation about other fares. In the follow up letter they said they found no evidence of me dodging other fares- even though I literally admitted it in my mitigation letter. It’s also why they still sent the second letter to my old address. They didn’t bother to read it.