Incorrect Penalty Fares information on LNR website

[Bletchleyite]

Looking at the LNR site on the new PF scheme I found this:

What if the station has no ticket office?​

If you arrive at a station that has no ticket office, or Ticket Vending Machines available, you must purchase a ticket on our website or via our free app, before the commencement of your journey.

How on earth is such badly incorrect information out there on an important legal matter like this?

Penalty fares

Don’t risk a fine, get your ticket before you go.

www.londonnorthwesternrailway.co.uk

 

[Class800]

Might be company policy? But it's certainly controversial. They also say on the same page

What if the ticket office is closed and the Ticket Vending Machine is out of order?​

You can purchase a ticket on our website or via our free app, before the commencement of your journey

 

[Bletchleyite]

They can encourage it, but the Penalty Fares rules don't allow "the computer at home" to be considered a passed opportunity to purchase so far as I am aware.

 

[AlterEgo]

Looks badly drafted. In the example in the OP, the website uses “must” as an imperative. Should, or can, would be more appropriate.

In the next expandable box down they correct themselves and say “can”.

What if the ticket office is closed and the Ticket Vending Machine is out of order?​

You can purchase a ticket on our website or via our free app, before the commencement of your journey.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That latter one should also say "you can also purchase a ticket at the first opportunity during your journey".

 

[AlterEgo]

That latter one should also say "you can also purchase a ticket at the first opportunity during your journey".

That would be a “must” though, not a can, as it’s a legal imperative.

 

[Haywain]

I wonder how they would deal with the person who reads that, finds the circumstances described and then buys a One Day Travelcard* online but can't collect it because the TVM is out of order?!


*Or various other ToD only tickets.

 

[Watershed]

That would be a “must” though, not a can, as it’s a legal imperative.

I think the important thing is that it should say something to the effect of:

"Otherwise, you can board the train and buy your ticket at the earliest opportunity. This could be from the Senior Conductor as they pass through the train, or at the ticket office at your destination or any station where you change trains (if there is enough time). If you don't buy your ticket at the earliest opportunity, you could be issued with a Penalty Fare".

 

[Class800]

I wonder how they would deal with the person who reads that, finds the circumstances described and then buys a One Day Travelcard* online but can't collect it because the TVM is out of order?!


*Or various other ToD only tickets.

Looks like that company's policy would be a penalty fare.

I don't think it's fair. But as we've discussed in other threads, there is poor regulation of TOCs

 

[Bletchleyite]

Looks like that company's policy would be a penalty fare.

I don't think it's fair. But as we've discussed in other threads, there is poor regulation of TOCs

Penalty Fares are not a matter of company policy. They are a matter of law.

 

[Class800]

Penalty Fares are not a matter of company policy. They are a matter of law.

But with a weak ombudsman service and DfT being generally pro TOC, how would we proceed if we consider the company policy is in breach? Would have to be court of law with all its uncertainty and expense?

 

[Kilopylae]

Might be company policy? But it's certainly controversial. They also say on the same page

Company policy does not override the Penalty Fare Regulations (or if, god forbid, they tried a prosecution on the basis of not purchasing an e-Ticket, the by-laws).

But with a weak ombudsman service and DfT being generally pro TOC, how would we proceed if we consider the company policy is in breach? Would have to be court of law with all its uncertainty and expense?

At the level of the individual, an appeal quoting the relevant rules might work. I suppose we won't know until someone tries.

 

[CentralTrainer]

Looks badly drafted. In the example in the OP, the website uses “must” as an imperative. Should, or can, would be more appropriate.

In the next expandable box down they correct themselves and say “can”.

What if the ticket office is closed and the Ticket Vending Machine is out of order?​

You can purchase a ticket on our website or via our free app, before the commencement of your journey.

I was just about to come here and ask about this - as I've only just seen that on the website - thinking "Oh, so the days of buying on board from the Conductor when no facilities were available are now over".

Have to ask the question thought - if that was their policy above - how would that cover the percentage of the population who use very old mobile phones that can't get the app - or have a "dumbphone" (Nokia 3310 etc.) or no mobile phone at all?

 

[Kilopylae]

Have to ask the question thought - if that was their policy above - how would that cover the percentage of the population who use very old mobile phones that can't get the app - or have a "dumbphone" (Nokia 3310 etc.) or no mobile phone at all?

Or people like myself who choose not to bring a smartphone on many leisure trips.

 

[sheff1]

This is exactly the sort of thing an effective regulator would be down on like a ton of bricks.

 

[SteveM70]

I've just tweeted them about it, the twitter person seems to accept the word "must" is wrong, and will apparently "be sure to feed this back". Don't suppose they'll change it though

 

[wilbers]

I've just tweeted them about it, the twitter person seems to accept the word "must" is wrong, and will apparently "be sure to feed this back". Don't suppose they'll change it though

Why don't you expect they will change it? Just looks like an oversight.

 

[SteveM70]

Why don't you expect they will change it? Just looks like an oversight.

Because there generally seems to be a pretty big disconnect between the people on twitter and the people doing the doing. I can’t imagine it’ll be seen as a priority

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Because there generally seems to be a pretty big disconnect between the people on twitter and the people doing the doing. I can’t imagine it’ll be seen as a priority

The WMT twitter team is actually closely aligned with the Exec team through the Head of Comms, we have raised similar things through Head of Onboard which have been rectified pretty quickly. I can assure you that it will be raised into the next weekly meeting if not dealt with beforehand. I will raise from onboard too as that needs amending pronto

 

[SteveM70]

The WMT twitter team is actually closely aligned with the Exec team through the Head of Comms, we have raised similar things through Head of Onboard which have been rectified pretty quickly. I can assure you that it will be raised into the next weekly meeting if not dealt with beforehand. I will raise from onboard too as that needs amending pronto

That's really good, thanks. Serves me right for basing it on Northern

 

[njr001]

See also https://www.westmidlandsrailway.co.uk/tickets-discounts/penalty-fares It would appear that West Midlands Railway are adopting the same policy from 23 January 2023 including the removal of Permit to Travel tickets/ machines

 

[Snow1964]

See alsohttps://www.westmidlandsrailway.co.uk/tickets-discounts/penalty-fares It would appear that West Midlands Railway are adopting the same policy from 23 January 2023 including the removal of Permit to Travel tickets/ machines

It’s even more messy with WMT policy from January, pay a different company (IRCAS) online or post or by phone to pay penalty

But if want to appeal, do that to different organisation (Appeals service), online or post, but no phone service this time. And to appeal must produce no less than 5 bits of information.

Your appeal should include:​

• A copy of your Penalty Fare.
• Why you could not produce a valid ticket or authority to travel when requested.
• Where you started your rail journey.
• The time and date you were travelling.
• Any other information or document relevant to your appeal, i.e. tickets, railcard, Oyster record.

Appeals must be in writing or online and cannot be made by telephone. You should explain why you did not produce a valid ticket or another authority to travel and provide any further information you have to support your explanation.

So if railway makes it difficult to buy a ticket, and as far as I can see from bylaws etc, still entitled to buy at first opportunity, and be able to pay cash if you want. You now have to deal with an external company at your time and expense to untangle it. Why a gutless rail regulator has allowed this just suggests the regulator is unfit for purpose.

When I was in Southern Italy recently, they were removing ticket machines from some stations, but only where a tabac corner shop was located on station forecourt, and had installed the ticket terminals in there, so they had an all stations / all ticket machine like ticket offices instead, not no ticket buying available. And if got on at minor station, conductor/guard sold you a ticket, not automatically jump to penalty. Some had mobile tickets, but wasn’t expected. So why WMT expects mobile tickets when it can’t be bothered to sell tickets at journey start point is unacceptable in my view.

 

[CentralTrainer]

See alsohttps://www.westmidlandsrailway.co.uk/tickets-discounts/penalty-fares It would appear that West Midlands Railway are adopting the same policy from 23 January 2023 including the removal of Permit to Travel tickets/ machines

I've not seen a Permit to Travel ticket on WMR ever since they removed the old style car park PERTIS machines.

Still got some of the old tickets in a box somewhere.

 

[BJames]

I see this has now been corrected.

What if the station has no ticket office?​

If you arrive at a station that has no ticket office, or Ticket Vending Machines available, you can purchase a ticket on our website or via our free app, before the commencement of your journey, or at your earliest opportunity.

 

[Birmingham]

I feel this is still quite poor. While it at least no longer says you ‘must’ use the app, I don’t think it makes it particularly clear that you don't need to. I think the man on the Clapham omnibus could quite easily still read that as that’s what you need to do if there’s no open ticket office or TVM.

How difficult would it have been to say ‘If you arrive at a station that has no ticket office or Ticket Vending Machines available, you must purchase a ticket at your earliest opportunity: on board the train from the Senior Conductor, during an interchange at a station, or at your destination. You may also choose to…’

 

[Feuillesmortes]

Their previous penalty fares leaflet mentioned quite a few "Pay Train" stations.

Can it be assumed that there are now ticket machines at every station on their network?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Can it be assumed that there are now ticket machines at every station on their network?

Given that Kempston Hardwick does, I suspect there are, yes. Of course they may be broken.

The Marston Vale was a "Paytrain" though not using that term (they'd even let you through Bletchley gateline if you were a bit last minute and said that's what you were doing) but the slow door operation of the 230s has put, er, paid to that, and TVMs have been installed.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Their previous penalty fares leaflet mentioned quite a few "Pay Train" stations.

Can it be assumed that there are now ticket machines at every station on their network?

Not at all stations, request stops on the North Warwick will probably never get them. Few others that don't either but not many.

 

[yorkie]

Might be company policy?

I suspect not! But if it is, they are in breach of the NRCoT and Ticketing Settlement Agreement!

Even the DfT (who normally do not seem to care if TOCs mistreat customers) may take an interest in that.

I feel this is still quite poor. While it at least no longer says you ‘must’ use the app, I don’t think it makes it particularly clear that you don't need to. I think the man on the Clapham omnibus could quite easily still read that as that’s what you need to do if there’s no open ticket office or TVM.

How difficult would it have been to say ‘If you arrive at a station that has no ticket office or Ticket Vending Machines available, you must purchase a ticket at your earliest opportunity: on board the train from the Senior Conductor, during an interchange at a station, or at your destination. You may also choose to…’

It's not in the interest of companies like West Midlands Trains to be clear and honest to customers.

Who is going to make them do this?

See also https://www.westmidlandsrailway.co.uk/tickets-discounts/penalty-fares It would appear that West Midlands Railway are adopting the same policy from 23 January 2023 including the removal of Permit to Travel tickets/ machines

WMR and LNR are merely brand names of the train operating company called West Midlands Trains (WMT).

Why a gutless rail regulator has allowed this just suggests the regulator is unfit for purpose.

The DfT will likely say it is a matter for the ORR, while the ORR will likely say it is a matter for the DfT.

I've neither the time nor willpower to try to get either of them to do anything; if anyone wants to try, it will be interesting to hear how you get on!