Increasingly sad state of London Underground trains - graffiti and disrepair

[sad1e]

Recently I haven’t seen a single Bakerloo and Central Line train that hasn’t been full of graffiti! Those lines having no CCTV on board will be hard to catch who’s done the graffiti, although I feel like TfL are giving up with the state of these trains!

Although I feel the the BTP needs to take some action and hop on a few Central and Bakerloo line trains and to track down graffiti artists if they are doing it on the train in my opinion.

Really makes you wonder how bad it will get, with the bakerloo line not even having a hope of getting new trains for at least 10 years. I wonder what the reliability rate of the 72ts will be like by then, I can't imagine the amount of stock cannibalisation.

At least the 1992ts is being actively refurbished and given CCTV. So logically within the next few years when the majority of the fleet is refurbished the amount of vandalism should decrease on them a fair amount.

From what I've seen though the vandalism on the central line is nowhere near as bad as the bakerloo , that said I don't take the central nearly as often though so maybe I've been lucky with the 92ts I've been on.

 

[Thirteen]

The 1972 stock should be replaced by the end of the decade, there's no chance it'll be able to get to a state where the Bakerloo Line could end up closed

 

[Nym]

The 1972 stock should be replaced by the end of the decade, there's no chance it'll be able to get to a state where the Bakerloo Line could end up closed

There's some good reasons why the 1972TS isn't getting CCTV, the internal displays were a higher priority for RVAR compliance.

 

[Silent]

Really makes you wonder how bad it will get, with the bakerloo line not even having a hope of getting new trains for at least 10 years. I wonder what the reliability rate of the 72ts will be like by then, I can't imagine the amount of stock cannibalisation.

At least the 1992ts is being actively refurbished and given CCTV. So logically within the next few years when the majority of the fleet is refurbished the amount of vandalism should decrease on them a fair amount.

From what I've seen though the vandalism on the central line is nowhere near as bad as the bakerloo , that said I don't take the central nearly as often though so maybe I've been lucky with the 92ts I've been on.

Really I thought they were getting new trains after the Piccadilly line gets 24ts.

The Bakerloo line are also being refurbished. People on this forum have said central line refurbs actually look underwhelming. So I view both refurbs as almost the same visually, minus cctv and new motors for the 1972 stock. Just being more compliant in terms of being accessible.

 

[xtmw]

It is worth noting the 92TS refurbishment isn't just a cosmetic refurbishment, it's also a replacement of vital parts/systems that are in dire need of replacement/renewal

 

[philosopher]

Really makes you wonder how bad it will get, with the bakerloo line not even having a hope of getting new trains for at least 10 years. I wonder what the reliability rate of the 72ts will be like by then, I can't imagine the amount of stock cannibalisation.

At least the 1992ts is being actively refurbished and given CCTV. So logically within the next few years when the majority of the fleet is refurbished the amount of vandalism should decrease on them a fair amount.

From what I've seen though the vandalism on the central line is nowhere near as bad as the bakerloo , that said I don't take the central nearly as often though so maybe I've been lucky with the 92ts I've been on.

At the moment the Bakerloo Line has severe delays due to train cancellations. For much of this week it has had delays due to train cancellations. Now the train cancellations may have nothing to do with the age of the 1972 stock, but I suspect it does. So I do wonder how much longer it is before TfL have to cut back the Bakerloo line to Queens Park to maintain a reasonable decent service on the rest of the Bakerloo Line.

Tube, Overground, Elizabeth line, DLR & Tram status updates - Transport for London

tfl.gov.uk

Bakerloo​

Severe delays
Entire line

Bakerloo Line: Severe delays due to train cancellations. Tickets are being accepted on London Buses.

 

[Silent]

It is worth noting the 92TS refurbishment isn't just a cosmetic refurbishment, it's also a replacement of vital parts/systems that are in dire need of replacement/renewal

Yes indeed, but visually I imagine the refurb looks similar to Bakerloo’s refurb, from a passengers perspective.

 

[sad1e]

At the moment the Bakerloo Line has severe delays due to train cancellations. For much of this week it has had delays due to train cancellations. Now the train cancellations may have nothing to do with the age of the 1972 stock, but I suspect it does. So I do wonder how much longer it is before TfL have to cut back the Bakerloo line to Queens Park to maintain a reasonable decent service on the rest of the Bakerloo Line.

Tube, Overground, Elizabeth line, DLR & Tram status updates - Transport for London

tfl.gov.uk

I remember seeing somewhere on this forum that due to the unreliability of the 72ts TfL was considering cutting it back to Queen's Park and leasing a 319 from Porterbrook or using a D stock to run a shuttle between Queen's park and Harrow.

I have no idea if TfL is still considering Doing that though , from an enthusiasts perspective i hope they do. it would be nice to be able to ride on some 319s on D stock again.

 

[Snow1964]

Really I thought they were getting new trains after the Piccadilly line gets 24ts.

It is an aspiration, and the Business case has been formulated and submitted.

From TfL Board minutes, it is fairly obvious, all depends on the Government spending review (due 11 June). There is even a TfL Board meeting same day.

Looking at the TfL papers (link) whole section (agenda item 13) on Bakerloo upgrade, and funds are being spent in preparation to get details ready. But more tellingly is the minutes of previous meeting where it is clear there are serious concerns about keeping existing trains going

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/pic-20250305-part-1-agenda-pack-corrected-website.pdf

 

[Dstock7080]

At the moment the Bakerloo Line has severe delays due to train cancellations. For much of this week it has had delays due to train cancellations. Now the train cancellations may have nothing to do with the age of the 1972 stock, but I suspect it does.

At present (yesterday) it isn’t:

The line advertised delays at various times throughout the day, due to the unavailability of Train Operators.

 

[Thirteen]

The Bakerloo Line upgrade has been mentioned in previous funding settlements which makes me think that funding will likely be approved, it's really a necessity rather than a nice to have given that the 1972 stock is already life expired.

Not to mention the option for extra 2024 stock expires next year so I would imagine from a cost perspective, it's cheaper to approve funding now than down the line

 

[Nym]

I remember seeing somewhere on this forum that due to the unreliability of the 72ts TfL was considering cutting it back to Queen's Park and leasing a 319 from Porterbrook or using a D stock to run a shuttle between Queen's park and Harrow.

I have no idea if TfL is still considering Doing that though , from an enthusiasts perspective i hope they do. it would be nice to be able to ride on some 319s on D stock again.

You did, and TfL ceased considering that well over 10 years ago now.

 

[Wolfie]

At present (yesterday) it isn’t:

Hmmm... Rather assumes that public announcements are fully accurate... After almost 40 years of working for Government l have my doubts...

Not to mention the option for extra 2024 stock expires next year so I would imagine from a cost perspective, it's cheaper to approve funding now than down the line.

Logically l agree but having worked for HMG for almost 40 years and dealt with HMT rather too often...

 

[Blindtraveler]

At what point next year does the 24 stock additional option expire? They presumably want to get a handful of them in traffic first just to make sure they're not complete sheds before committing themselves to a whole load more, which would be a PR disaster of monumental proportion even by transport for London standards and it's not as if they're showering themselves in glory with the introduction of the DLR b23 fleet at the moment. So again, no doubt someone in the public relations end is busy pickling their liver as a stress relief of how to get out of that one

 

[Mawkie]

Hmmm... Rather assumes that public announcements are fully accurate

They used to say "... due to a lack of available train operators" until the great British public started abusing train operators standing at changeover points. So LU were convinced to change the wording slightly.

 

[sad1e]

At what point next year does the 24 stock additional option expire? They presumably want to get a handful of them in traffic first just to make sure they're not complete sheds before committing themselves to a whole load more, which would be a PR disaster of monumental proportion even by transport for London standards and it's not as if they're showering themselves in glory with the introduction of the DLR b23 fleet at the moment. So again, no doubt someone in the public relations end is busy pickling their liver as a stress relief of how to get out of that one

I personally don't understand why TFL prioritised new stock for the DLR over the Bakerloo line. The oldest stock is the DLR fleet is only from 1991 and a good part of it is from the early 2000s so by all means it has a younger fleet on average then most London underground lines.

Meanwhile the bakerloo line has to continue using 53 year old stock. I have no idea why TFL prioritised the b23 stock over new stock for the Bakerloo line.

 

[Thirteen]

Light rail stock doesn't have as long a life compared to their train and Tube counterparts, it's why the CR4000s are planned to be replaced as well but also the cost is lower since in the case of the Trams, they don't need to be bespoke

 

[F Great Eastern]

At the moment the Bakerloo Line has severe delays due to train cancellations. For much of this week it has had delays due to train cancellations. Now the train cancellations may have nothing to do with the age of the 1972 stock, but I suspect it does. So I do wonder how much longer it is before TfL have to cut back the Bakerloo line to Queens Park to maintain a reasonable decent service on the rest of the Bakerloo Line.

Tube, Overground, Elizabeth line, DLR & Tram status updates - Transport for London

tfl.gov.uk

Not been a great day on the Bakerloo to be honest.

Te various other line closures today and the various cancellations on Bakerloo due to shortages of trains and an earlier evacuation of Waterloo Underground station due to a fire that led to a huge backup of passengers and the hot weather in London led to a hideous environment on many of the trains, which lets face it, are a poor environment at the best of times with their intense heat, sofa seating that backs are so low they are only good for dwarves and being generally full of graffiti inside and out. It badly needs new stock.

At what point next year does the 24 stock additional option expire? They presumably want to get a handful of them in traffic first just to make sure they're not complete sheds before committing themselves to a whole load more, which would be a PR disaster of monumental proportion even by transport for London standards and it's not as if they're showering themselves in glory with the introduction of the DLR b23 fleet at the moment. So again, no doubt someone in the public relations end is busy pickling their liver as a stress relief of how to get out of that one

I doubt they will be shed of disaster to be honest, the Inspiro is a proven platform and has direct variants and also indirect variations of it running around Europe. If it was produced in Derby however, I would certainly be worried.

 

[Recessio]

I personally don't understand why TFL prioritised new stock for the DLR over the Bakerloo line. The oldest stock is the DLR fleet is only from 1991 and a good part of it is from the early 2000s so by all means it has a younger fleet on average then most London underground lines.

Meanwhile the bakerloo line has to continue using 53 year old stock. I have no idea why TFL prioritised the b23 stock over new stock for the Bakerloo line.

Early microelectronics and computers (1980s/1990s stock) can age worse than older electromechanical stuff - which in some ways often hadn't really changed since the 1940s, and was relatively quite simple. There also tends to be lots of spare parts lying around or was relatively easy to manufacture new parts.

Meanwhile the microelectronics were novel when built, often very specific to the company that built them, and obsolete thanks to advancements in the 90s and 2000s - meaning it's very difficult, if not impossible, to get parts nowadays, and also expertise to repair or remanufacture if the people who worked on these systems 30/40 years ago are now approaching retirement.

This is why we can see 80s/90s trains getting decommissioned before older 70s trains.

 

[announcements]

Yes and on that note, and as has been mentioned elsewhere, perhaps they should have stuck to a plan floated around a few years back to have the '24 stock replace the '92 stock first - would mean no need to spend on CLIP. The Picc line train interiors still feel modern to me and I also don't find they get too hot to warrant an urgent need for air conditioning. Anyway we digress!

I am not sure what the solution is for the Bakerloo line vandalism. Every Bakerloo train without fail I have taken recently has had tags, as have most of the Central line trains. As we have already commented numerous times, CCTV doesn't appear to make a difference.

 

[vuzzeho]

The Picc line train interiors still feel modern to me and I also don't find they get too hot to warrant an urgent need for air conditioning.

Really?

Either way, the Picc trains are too old to even keep around. So though you might find them modern (which surprises me) - they're far too old to keep around. And they'll eventually start to show their age, by failing.

 

[bramling]

At the moment the Bakerloo Line has severe delays due to train cancellations. For much of this week it has had delays due to train cancellations. Now the train cancellations may have nothing to do with the age of the 1972 stock, but I suspect it does.

Personally I wouldn’t be placing too bigger bet on the latter. Bearing in mind last week was half-term, and the generally precarious state of crewing on LU nowadays, it is more likely to be down to lack of drivers.

 

[announcements]

Really?

Either way, the Picc trains are too old to even keep around. So though you might find them modern (which surprises me) - they're far too old to keep around. And they'll eventually start to show their age, by failing.

The interiors are late '90s, meet disability regulations and feel spacious, airy and just as 'new' as the 95/96ts. New moquette since covid too. Perhaps in need of a deep clean, yes, but that is only because they are in managed decline.

On the other hand, the 1972 and 1992 stock interiors from the early '90s feel so dated and are not compliant.

Yes, the Picc trains will eventually start to show their age, but it's the lesser of two evils to keep them on a few more years than to have to spend an awful lot of money on CLIP (and the knock-on-effect it is having on timetable). By the time CLIP is complete, the '92s would need replacing.

 

[FrontSideBus]

Realistically, TFL staff have been instructed not to challenge fare dodgers, so what do you think they have been told to do about those vandals tagging the trains?
It's open season for these people!

 

[Chriso]

TfL do seem now to be cleaning the 92 stock interiors from what I have seen over the last week. There are still some stains but not as bad as it was.

Unable to comment on the Bakerloo line as have not used it over the last week

 

[Russel]

TfL do seem now to be cleaning the 92 stock interiors from what I have seen over the last week. There are still some stains but not as bad as it was.

Unable to comment on the Bakerloo line as have not used it over the last week

Yes, I've seen a couple of Reddit posts commenting on Central line trains being cleaned up.

I hope we've turned a corner.

 

[sh24]

5 Bakerloo rides over the weekend. 2 looked terrible, 2 looked better (a few tags, not many) and 1 looked fine if very very tired.

 

[Thirteen]

Really?

Either way, the Picc trains are too old to even keep around. So though you might find them modern (which surprises me) - they're far too old to keep around. And they'll eventually start to show their age, by failing.

Wasn't it said that while they look okay externally, they are harder to maintain due to their age.

 

[erikvd28]

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/tra...-support-survey-london-councils-b1229906.html
At least there is great public support for the Bakerloo extension. Even if they buy 40 new trains, should they buy at least 60 for the extension for later?

 

[Silent]

The interiors are late '90s, meet disability regulations and feel spacious, airy and just as 'new' as the 95/96ts. New moquette since covid too. Perhaps in need of a deep clean, yes, but that is only because they are in managed decline.

On the other hand, the 1972 and 1992 stock interiors from the early '90s feel so dated and are not compliant.

Yes, the Picc trains will eventually start to show their age, but it's the lesser of two evils to keep them on a few more years than to have to spend an awful lot of money on CLIP (and the knock-on-effect it is having on timetable). By the time CLIP is complete, the '92s would need replacing.

The 73ts interiors feel older to me than 96 stock despite being similar. I think it’s probably small things like the materials, doors. When I’ve ridden in them, which isn’t much, but recently enough. The train feel a bit worn out although they obviously still work.