Inefficiency of London Victoria - West Croydon services.

[PGAT]

I've been travelling on this train a couple of times, and I've wondered why its so inefficient.

For context, when this train arrives at Norwood Junction it waits at Platform 6 for 9 1/2 minutes before going to West Croydon. You would be better walking off the train and going to Platform 5 where an Overground train leaves 3 minutes before. Not only that but it goes into the turnback sidings at West Croydon for nearly 20 minutes. In all of that time, that train could have gone to Coulsdon Town and back whilst requiring no extra units.

Current Timetable:

NWD: 1242 1251 1/2
WCY: 1257 1300
West Croydon Turnback: 1303 1317
--------------------------------------
West Croydon Turnback: 1303 1317
WCY: 1320 1325
NWD: 1331 1/2 1333

What COULD be done in that same time:

NWD: 1242 1243
ECR: 1247 1248
SCY: 1250 1251
PUO: 1253 1/2 1254
PUR: 1257 1258
RHM: 1300 1300 1/2
CDN: 1303
------------------------
CDN: 1311
RHM: 1314 1314 1/2
PUR: 1317 1318
PUO: 1321 1321 1/2
SCY: 1324 1325
ECR: 1327 1328
NWD: 1331 1/2 1333

So my main question is, why don't Southern do the latter?

Edit: Yes, I checked, there aren't any conflicting movements at East Croydon, Purley or Coulsdon Town.

 

[JonathanH]

On the face of it, this looks inefficient, particularly in the light of Southern's retraction of service. However, it is presumably deemed that West Croydon is the appropriate destination for this service.

On conflicts, I don't think that the train is going to easily squeeze through southbound between the Peterborough - Horsham (xx16 at East Croydon) and London Bridge - Uckfield (xx22 at East Croydon) southbound once the former moves to the slow lines from December. In the up direction, the Caterham / Tattenham Corner to London Bridge runs only three minutes ahead from December with the Reigate up behind. A bit pointless to have another Purley train in succession.

Going back to West Croydon, it doesn't seem possible to schedule it there any more efficiently without the stops at Norwood Junction and the London Overground service gets precedence. The ideal of course would be to save the units from one cycle of this service, but there isn't 30 minutes of dwell in total.

Finally, I don't think Coulsdon Town can turn a 10-car train, which West Croydon can.

 

[PGAT]

On conflicts, I don't think that the train is going to easily squeeze through southbound between the Peterborough - Horsham (xx16 at East Croydon) and London Bridge - Uckfield (xx22 at East Croydon) southbound once the former moves to the slow lines from December.

The Peterborough-Horsham train doesn't stop until Coulsdon South so it will gain quite a big gap on the service. This timetable is a bit generous so times could be pushed forward or back a bit, or either of the trains can be diverted to Platform 5 (if a terminating train isn't there). The London Bridge - Uckfield train leaves 20 minutes before and diverges after South Croydon so that won't be a problem.

My point isn't that trains should be terminating at Coulsdon Town specifically: that was just an example. My point was that going to West Croydon is inefficient and unnecessary and you could go much further and have a more frequent service for others.

 

[JonathanH]

My point isn't that trains should be terminating at Coulsdon Town specifically: that was just an example. My point was that going to West Croydon is inefficient and unnecessary and you could go much further and have a more frequent service for others.

Yes, but I think my point is that there isn't really anywhere better to send it than West Croydon despite the inefficiency, because there are already trains on the Purley corridor close to that time.

 

[Surreytraveller]

And how reliable are these West Croydon services? Remove the 'inefficiencies', and you remove the reliability

 

[swt_passenger]

Wasn’t there a proposal by TfL a few years ago to make room for more LO services by running the SN services further down the route to a new turnback at Wallington? (Is that where there’s a gap between up and down lines just past the station?) I suppose it’s overtaken by events by now…

 

[PGAT]

Wasn’t there a proposal by TfL a few years ago to make room for more LO services by running the SN services further down the route to a new turnback at Wallington? (Is that where there’s a gap between up and down lines just past the station?) I suppose it’s overtaken by events by now…

Yes there is, although it's not to make room for more LO trains.

 

[IKB]

I've been travelling on this train a couple of times, and I've wondered why its so inefficient.

For context, when this train arrives at Norwood Junction it waits at Platform 6 for 9 1/2 minutes before going to West Croydon. You would be better walking off the train and going to Platform 5 where an Overground train leaves 3 minutes before. Not only that but it goes into the turnback sidings at West Croydon for nearly 20 minutes. In all of that time, that train could have gone to Coulsdon Town and back whilst requiring no extra units.

Current Timetable:

NWD: 1242 1251 1/2
WCY: 1257 1300
West Croydon Turnback: 1303 1317
--------------------------------------
West Croydon Turnback: 1303 1317
WCY: 1320 1325
NWD: 1331 1/2 1333

What COULD be done in that same time:

NWD: 1242 1243
ECR: 1247 1248
SCY: 1250 1251
PUO: 1253 1/2 1254
PUR: 1257 1258
RHM: 1300 1300 1/2
CDN: 1303
------------------------
CDN: 1311
RHM: 1314 1314 1/2
PUR: 1317 1318
PUO: 1321 1321 1/2
SCY: 1324 1325
ECR: 1327 1328
NWD: 1331 1/2 1333

So my main question is, why don't Southern do the latter?

Edit: Yes, I checked, there aren't any conflicting movements at East Croydon, Purley or Coulsdon Town.

The stations you mention - CDN, RHM, PUR, PUO, SCY - already have a half hourly service during the daytime, and loadings from those stations (particularly CDN, RHM, PUO) out of peak hours are quite light. Vast majority of passengers want to go to Victoria or London Bridge. They will either board the 1Pxx services from Caterham/Tatt or change at ECR for Victoria. Windmill Bridge and ECR still only just about work now, adding more trains will impact reliability.

The West Croydons have lots of padding the schedules yes, and are frustrating to drive with all the waiting time. The trains main purpose is providing a half hourly service from Norwood/Crystal Palace to/from Victoria via Streatham Hill. West Croydon is useful place to turn it around. If you're between Vic and Balham and want to go to West Croydon you would board a 2Bxx Sutton train which is quicker. In the down direction not that many people who get on the train actually go to West Croydon. There's a big exodus at S.Hill, West Norwood, Gipsy Hill and Crystal Palace - after that passenger numbers onboard rapidly tail off. By the time the train empties out at West Croydon (certainly off-peak) there are not that many people on it.

The timed wait at Norwood (some journeys it's ten minutes, sometimes is three) is to regulate movements at Gloucester Road junction and to work around the other LOROL and Southern services through West Croydon.There are already plenty of services between Norwood and West Croydon, so if you view the the trip from Norwood to the Turnaround Siding as a massive shunt movement if perhaps makes a little more sense. Thus, when the journey resumes in the 'up' direction from Norwood it is 99% of the time "on time", which is where the important part of the journey begins serving stations via Crystal Palace. If that train began its trip south of Purley, it then has to negotiate South Croydon junction, East Croydon and Cottage Bridge junction and by the time it gets onto the Palace line punctuality will have suffered.

 

[London Trains]

Is the Norwood Junction to West Croydon part of the service even necessary with the issues with units Southern are having? I could think of more important uses for an extra unit.

To be honest, I would just cut the service between Norwood Jct and West Croydon, give the service a 21 minute turnaround in Norwood Jct P6, and then run back towards Victoria on the previous service to the one the unit would form nowadays, therefore saving a unit (going in and out of P6 from the Crystal Palace direction can be done entirely self-contained from the BML).

Then I would cut the Watford Jct to East Croydon service back to Clapham Jct, with a 6 minute turnaround in Clapham Jct P17 (which is fine as it has a 30 minute turnaround at Watford Jct), again saving a unit as it would form the service in the previous hour to the one it currently does.

Then I would use these 2 units, as well as one extra to fully reinstate the Victoria to Epsom stopping services and remove the extra stops from the Victoria to Dorking/Horsham services - reinstating this service only requires 3 more units than now as the current pattern of 2tph Victoria to Dorking/Horsham all stops requires 6 units, and the original pattern of 2tph Victoria to Dorking/Horsham fast and 2tph Victoria to Epsom stopping required 9 units.

 

[IKB]

To be honest, I would just cut the service between Norwood Jct and West Croydon, give the service a 21 minute turnaround in Norwood Jct P6, and then run back towards Victoria on the previous service to the one the unit would form nowadays, therefore saving a unit (going in and out of P6 from the Crystal Palace direction can be done entirely self-contained from the BML).

The signalling at Norwood Junction does not allow what you are suggesting. Platforms 4, 5 and 6 are signalled in the 'down' direction only, nor does the point-work exist to go from those platforms to the 'up' spur towards Bromley Junction/Crystal Palace. If you are suggesting making the 'down' spur bi-directional between Bromley Junction and platform 6, that would require a substantial outlay of dosh which won't happen.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Is the Norwood Junction to West Croydon part of the service even necessary with the issues with units Southern are having? I could think of more important uses for an extra unit.

To be honest, I would just cut the service between Norwood Jct and West Croydon, give the service a 21 minute turnaround in Norwood Jct P6, and then run back towards Victoria on the previous service to the one the unit would form nowadays, therefore saving a unit (going in and out of P6 from the Crystal Palace direction can be done entirely self-contained from the BML).

Then I would cut the Watford Jct to East Croydon service back to Clapham Jct, with a 6 minute turnaround in Clapham Jct P17 (which is fine as it has a 30 minute turnaround at Watford Jct), again saving a unit as it would form the service in the previous hour to the one it currently does.

Then I would use these 2 units, as well as one extra to fully reinstate the Victoria to Epsom stopping services and remove the extra stops from the Victoria to Dorking/Horsham services - reinstating this service only requires 3 more units than now as the current pattern of 2tph Victoria to Dorking/Horsham all stops requires 6 units, and the original pattern of 2tph Victoria to Dorking/Horsham fast and 2tph Victoria to Epsom stopping required 9 units.

You can't turn a train around in Norwood junction platform 6.

 

[Trainfan344]

Norwood junction isn't a station you want blocked for 20 minutes at a time

 

[PGAT]

Terminating at Norwood Junction would only be possible if the plans to open Platform 7 went ahead.

 

[cle]

Terminating at Norwood Junction would only be possible if the plans to open Platform 7 went ahead.

That seems very dead, correct? A shame as I thought it had good benefits, even without the broader Windmill works (which also seem unlikely now)

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Terminating at Norwood Junction would only be possible if the plans to open Platform 7 went ahead.

How though? How would you send trains back towards Crystal Palace?

 

[cactustwirly]

The signalling at Norwood Junction does not allow what you are suggesting. Platforms 4, 5 and 6 are signalled in the 'down' direction only, nor does the point-work exist to go from those platforms to the 'up' spur towards Bromley Junction/Crystal Palace. If you are suggesting making the 'down' spur bi-directional between Bromley Junction and platform 6, that would require a substantial outlay of dosh which won't happen.

Even if it was bi-di, you wouldn't want to have it cross over the flat junctions every half an hour at such a congested area.

 

[30907]

Even if it was bi-di, you wouldn't want to have it cross over the flat junctions every half an hour at such a congested area.

6 to the Down Spur doesn't conflict, to be fair, but the other problems remain.
It isn't at all obvious why this service (but not the one on the opposite half hour) is held back at NWD most of the day.

Arguably it would be better to run this service to ECR, as this would improve connectivity from LO stations at NWD but the turnback in P5 is already occupied.
Also, the London-bound path ideally needs to be 15min later to give a decent spread of ECR-NWD departures (the down path is tolerable in that respect)*.
This suggests that a turnback at South Croydon P4 (as happened a few years back) or Purley P5/6 would work - but the problem is still pathing the trains through ECR.

(Note - 1. I haven't checked whether you can shift the LBG-WNW-VIC by 15min but it shouldn't be too difficult. 2. I wouldn't stop at Purley Oaks - nor probably S Croydon).

 

[PGAT]

Arguably it would be better to run this service to ECR, as this would improve connectivity from LO stations at NWD but the turnback in P5 is already occupied.
Also, the London-bound path ideally needs to be 15min later to give a decent spread of ECR-NWD departures (the down path is tolerable in that respect)*.
This suggests that a turnback at South Croydon P4 (as happened a few years back) or Purley P5/6 would work - but the problem is still pathing the trains through ECR.

That was my suggestion as well.

 

[Thebaz]

Even if it was bi-di, you wouldn't want to have it cross over the flat junctions every half an hour at such a congested area.

You could run it back back up the down Palace spur and then wrong line to Crystal Palace where there is apparently a crossover in the facing direction. Or, instal a crossover between Bromley Junction and CP. Anyway - moot point, it isn't going to happen.

 

[Sm5]

Might it make sense to close the whole line from, Selhurst and West Norwood through to Sutton ?

Reading these posts, suggest everything is about improving service on other lines. There are huge numbers of passengers on the Wallington line in peak hours, but the issue seems to be poor frequency and short trains, which the railway is simply too expensive to operate efficiently.

However, turning this whole line over to Tramlink maybe beneficial.
Trams could easily run out of Norwood Junction through West Croydon up to Sutton, go up on the street across the town centre, and drop onto the Wimbledon line through and take over to P9 at Wimbledon.

Thameslink on Sutton loop could be abandoned.
Southern services to West Croydon could be abandoned.
Southern could re route Epsom Downs via Carshalton, Streatham and Clapham High Street to Victoria. (that is if Epsom Downs isnt closed).


At West Croydon, level the whole station.
It could become a much larger tram / bus interchange.
The bridge over the wallington line no longer needed, and trams routed via West Croydon in both directions.

Trams running up to Sutton could include new stops at the old site of Bandon halt, Plough lane, stanley park and Kings lane.

As side of the Wallington line, I think Caterham is a candidate for closure, as is Merstham, Coulsdon South (and those close this whole line, and string across a connection from the Quarry lines to Redhill at Merstham)., thus saving the need for Reigate services too.

Separately, why on earth would they need a turn back at Wallington ? Sutton is good as any, p4 only has one every 30 minutes. In the old pre-covid days I would have said finishing the construction of Cheam’s centre platforms would make most sense.

 

[PGAT]

Might it make sense to close the whole line from, Selhurst and West Norwood through to Sutton ?

Reading these posts, suggest everything is about improving service on other lines. There are huge numbers of passengers on the Wallington line in peak hours, but the issue seems to be poor frequency and short trains, which the railway is simply too expensive to operate efficiently.

However, turning this whole line over to Tramlink maybe beneficial.
Trams could easily run out of Norwood Junction through West Croydon up to Sutton, go up on the street across the town centre, and drop onto the Wimbledon line through and take over to P9 at Wimbledon.

Thameslink on Sutton loop could be abandoned.
Southern services to West Croydon could be abandoned.
Southern could re route Epsom Downs via Carshalton, Streatham and Clapham High Street to Victoria. (that is if Epsom Downs isnt closed).


At West Croydon, level the whole station.
It could become a much larger tram / bus interchange.
The bridge over the wallington line no longer needed, and trams routed via West Croydon in both directions.

Trams running up to Sutton could include new stops at the old site of Bandon halt, Plough lane, stanley park and Kings lane.

As side of the Wallington line, I think Caterham is a candidate for closure, as is Merstham, Coulsdon South (and those close this whole line, and string across a connection from the Quarry lines to Redhill at Merstham)., thus saving the need for Reigate services too.

Separately, why on earth would they need a turn back at Wallington ? Sutton is good as any, p4 only has one every 30 minutes. In the old pre-covid days I would have said finishing the construction of Cheam’s centre platforms would make most sense.

Turning the Wallington line into a tram line is a bad idea. For a start, you would need to rip up all the 3rd rail and convert them to pantographs, remodel the stations, lower the platforms and buy a whole new fleet of trams. What happens at Norwood Junction? There’s no space for new platforms unless you bulldoze the tracks and sidings at Selhurst Depot.

Trams and trains can’t co-exist at Sutton since one will have to cross over the other and share the same platforms.

This idea doesn’t help anyone, since the Wallington line won’t have any direct trains to London, and those trams will be overcrowded. It will also force all the Wallington line passengers into London-bound trains at Norwood Junction, Wimbledon and Sutton which are all already struggling.

And when the line is converted to allow trams, the whole system is blocked for at least a couple of years.

And is it really worth it? Not really. While I agree the services could be improved they’re running fine enough for now.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Might it make sense to close the whole line from, Selhurst and West Norwood through to Sutton ?

Reading these posts, suggest everything is about improving service on other lines. There are huge numbers of passengers on the Wallington line in peak hours, but the issue seems to be poor frequency and short trains, which the railway is simply too expensive to operate efficiently.

However, turning this whole line over to Tramlink maybe beneficial.
Trams could easily run out of Norwood Junction through West Croydon up to Sutton, go up on the street across the town centre, and drop onto the Wimbledon line through and take over to P9 at Wimbledon.

Thameslink on Sutton loop could be abandoned.
Southern services to West Croydon could be abandoned.
Southern could re route Epsom Downs via Carshalton, Streatham and Clapham High Street to Victoria. (that is if Epsom Downs isnt closed).


At West Croydon, level the whole station.
It could become a much larger tram / bus interchange.
The bridge over the wallington line no longer needed, and trams routed via West Croydon in both directions.

Trams running up to Sutton could include new stops at the old site of Bandon halt, Plough lane, stanley park and Kings lane.

As side of the Wallington line, I think Caterham is a candidate for closure, as is Merstham, Coulsdon South (and those close this whole line, and string across a connection from the Quarry lines to Redhill at Merstham)., thus saving the need for Reigate services too.

Separately, why on earth would they need a turn back at Wallington ? Sutton is good as any, p4 only has one every 30 minutes. In the old pre-covid days I would have said finishing the construction of Cheam’s centre platforms would make most sense.

This is one of the worst ideas I've ever read.

 

[Sm5]

Turning the Wallington line into a tram line is a bad idea. For a start, you would need to rip up all the 3rd rail and convert them to pantographs, remodel the stations, lower the platforms and buy a whole new fleet of trams. What happens at Norwood Junction? There’s no space for new platforms unless you bulldoze the tracks and sidings at Selhurst Depot.

P6 wouldnt be needed, P7 is extant and unused for decades.

Trams and trains can’t co-exist at Sutton since one will have to cross over the other and share the same platforms.

not if they went to street level, moving the pway huts and up the quite wide side street..trams do roads too.

This idea doesn’t help anyone, since the Wallington line won’t have any direct trains to London, and those trams will be overcrowded. It will also force all the Wallington line passengers into London-bound trains at Norwood Junction, Wimbledon and Sutton which are all already struggling.

most of them have to change anyway., Victoria -Epsom downs is a very slow service.
London Bridge -Epsom is only every 30 minutes and insufficient, it ends very early and passengers often end up changing at East Croydon anyway.

Sutton loop Thameslink is a pityfully poor service with magnificent cancelations, weekends has all but stopped.

Overground forces a change at West Croydon anyway.

Remove those and have more stop at NWD Jn, or passengers take a fast to East Croydon, and Tram may well see faster journey times than today.

The whole line is heading downhill. A tram every 5 minutes would be very welcome

And when the line is converted to allow trams, the whole system is blocked for at least a couple of years.

Rubbish, Manchester - Bury Metrolink took less than 7 months to convert… and that was greenfield conversion, all new infrastructure… Croydon thameslink is already established with facilities etc.

And is it really worth it? Not really. While I agree the services could be improved they’re running fine enough for now.

I take it you dont use that line then. Its becoming the withered arm.

The other option is turn the West Croydon carriage sidings into a terminating set of 4 bay platforms, level the old station to road level. let the trams take over P1, 2, 4 .. the whole station could be a Bus, Tram, Train interchange completely step free.
Plenty of oppourtunity & space there

 

[PGAT]

I take it you dont use that line then. Its becoming the withered arm.

I have been travelling from Selhurst - Sutton everyday for most of the year. It’s shallow of you to make assumptions about me just because I think it’s a bad idea.

P6 wouldnt be needed, P7 is extant and unused for decades.

To get to Platform 7 you would need to cross every other track on a busy mainline, or build expensive and disruptive flyovers.

most of them have to change anyway., Victoria -Epsom downs is a very slow service.

Not really, Wallington to London Victoria is about 40 minute journey, which is typical for a Zone 5 station. Because this is the name of the thread I might as well use this example; Victoria - West Croydon via Crystal Palace takes 45 minutes.

Rubbish, Manchester - Bury Metrolink took less than 7 months to convert…

Still would have catastrophic effects on the route.

Overground forces a change at West Croydon anyway.

That’s a very flimsy point. The Wallington line ALREADY has direct trains to Victoria and London Bridge. The Overground is completely irrelevant in this scenario. West Croydon is step free, with just a walk to the other side of the platform with a train waiting for you already. At Norwood Junction, you would have to walk either from the tram stop to the main station, or walk from Platform 7 all the way under the crowded and non-step free underpass to the other side of the station.

not if they went to street level, moving the pway huts and up the quite wide side street..trams do roads too.

Go on. Show me on a map where that would be feasible.

Also final point: 12 tph between West Croydon and Sutton? Sod that. There is nowhere near the amount of demand to justify that. For reference, pre-pandemic the maximum peak service was 8tph (and 2 of them skipped Waddon, Wallington and Carshalton Beeches).
There’s 6tph in the peak now, and they cope absolutely fine with the capacity. If they really sorely needed more capacity they wouldn’t spend at least 7 months making everything worse.

 

[Sm5]

I have been travelling from Selhurst - Sutton everyday for most of the year. It’s shallow of you to make assumptions about me just because I think it’s a bad idea.

we must be seat neighbours then.

To get to Platform 7 you would need to cross every other track on a busy mainline, or build expensive and disruptive flyovers.

no, use the existing, or at worst, over 1 track (from p6), like with Mitcham Junction

Not really, Wallington to London Victoria is about 40 minute journey, which is typical for a Zone 5 station. Because this is the name of the thread I might as well use this example; Victoria - West Croydon via Crystal Palace takes 45 minutes.

slow, painfully slow.
There used to be fasts to Victoria, rerouted before covid to Carshalton instead.
The service today is slower than the 1960s and the 1930’s. (I have the timetables).

Still would have catastrophic effects on the route.

no, it would become a tramline, not a ghetto.
A large number of commuters are just going to Croydon from up the line, delivering them directly to their office (and closer to additional tram stops on the way home) would be immensely popular, and a vote winner. It would also solve the issues of poor service to Sutton.

That’s a very flimsy point. The Wallington line ALREADY has direct trains to Victoria and London Bridge. The Overground is completely irrelevant in this scenario.

but it shouldnt be. LO should never imo terminated at WCY But continued to at least Sutton P4, or Belmont for the hospital (i’d rather not have LO at all as the units are unpleasant)

West Croydon is step free, with just a walk to the other side of the platform with a train waiting for you already. At Norwood Junction, you would have to walk either from the tram stop to the main station, or walk from Platform 7 all the way under the crowded and non-step free underpass to the other side of the station.

or use East Croydon and take a tram direct to sutton from there (because now you would be able to). You could also take a fast trip from Waterloo to Wimbledon, and take a regular tram service that could drop you closer to home than an unreliable TL, or take a Northern line straight to Sutton…

Northern has late night tubes thrown in too.. meaning a night out in London doesnt have to end at 1030pm for Suttons residents to get home before the station closes.

Go on. Show me on a map where that would be feasible.

just look at the car park exit / p4 at Sutton… go up that side street and onto the road, over / infront of the station and off round the town to either West Sutton or Rosehill ( as per the umpteen submitted plans in the past). It could use the Wimbledon line, to P9 (take away from NR), and continue to Tooting maybe a useful Tram feed to Wimbledon on its way towards Sutton. A new stop by the A24 could feed to the Northern line too, Streatham could close.

or Ideally Northern could take over the TL to Sutton from Morden, though admittedly theres only room for 1 bay platform at Sutton, and a small narrow bridge would need replacing, so the tram could go the street level route to Rosehill, join the existing Tramlink route at Merton Road.

That would hugely improve Suttons connectivity from the poor rail service it has, and reliance on buses from Morden, West Croydon to serve what is a large neighbourhood, but with poorly located stations.

Also final point: 12 tph between West Croydon and Sutton? Sod that. There is nowhere near the amount of demand to justify that. For reference, pre-pandemic the maximum peak service was 8tph (and 2 of them skipped Waddon, Wallington and Carshalton Beeches).

trams arent trains. It neednt be a 10 coach misery, or a 4 coach at weekends.
West Croydon to Wimbledon was a misery line before Tramlink, today its thriving.

Wimbledon to Sutton, Sutton to Epsom Downs are rundown today, and the CSB line is declining. Caterham could go too. As could Merstham, Coulsdon South and the slow Quarry lines, and Vic to Reigate services. Tattenham could be single tracked, 2 platform at Tattenham, and Coulsdon Town as a peak hour turnback.

Not sure Purley Oaks and Reedham are really needed either.

Lots of potential for Beeching round 2 to clean up Southern a bit.

All that could go.
Dont need staff for a tram halt, and more stops offers better options for passengers.

There’s 6tph in the peak now, and they cope absolutely fine with the capacity. If they really sorely needed more capacity they wouldn’t spend at least 7 months making everything worse.

I disagree. Maybe my seat is a different view towards the passengers.

Sutton and vicinity has amongst the worst public transport links in London, in terms of populace.
.

 

[Thebaz]

we must be seat neighbours then.

slow, painfully slow.
There used to be fasts to Victoria, rerouted before covid to Carshalton instead.
The service today is slower than the 1960s and the 1930’s. (I have the timetables).

no, use the existing, or at worst, over 1 track (from p6), like with Mitcham Junction


slow, painfully slow.
There used to be fasts to Victoria, rerouted before covid to Carshalton instead.
The service today is slower than the 1960s and the 1930’s. (I have the timetables).



no, it would become a tramline, not a ghetto.
A large number of commuters are just going to Croydon from up the line, delivering them directly to their office (and closer to additional tram stops on the way home) would be immensely popular, and a vote winner. It would also solve the issues of poor service to Sutton.



but it shouldnt be. LO should never imo terminated at WCY But continued to at least Sutton P4, or Belmont for the hospital (i’d rather not have LO at all as the units are unpleasant)

or use East Croydon and take a tram direct to sutton from there (because now you would be able to). You could also take a fast trip from Waterloo to Wimbledon, and take a regular tram service that could drop you closer to home than an unreliable TL, or take a Northern line straight to Sutton…

Northern has late night tubes thrown in too.. meaning a night out in London doesnt have to end at 1030pm for Suttons residents to get home before the station closes.



just look at the car park exit / p4 at Sutton… go up that side street and onto the road, over / infront of the station and off round the town to either West Sutton or Rosehill ( as per the umpteen submitted plans in the past). It could use the Wimbledon line, to P9 (take away from NR), and continue to Tooting maybe a useful Tram feed to Wimbledon on its way towards Sutton. A new stop by the A24 could feed to the Northern line too, Streatham could close.

or Ideally Northern could take over the TL to Sutton from Morden, though admittedly theres only room for 1 bay platform at Sutton, and a small narrow bridge would need replacing, so the tram could go the street level route to Rosehill, join the existing Tramlink route at Merton Road.

That would hugely improve Suttons connectivity from the poor rail service it has, and reliance on buses from Morden, West Croydon to serve what is a large neighbourhood, but with poorly located stations.


trams arent trains. It neednt be a 10 coach misery, or a 4 coach at weekends.
West Croydon to Wimbledon was a misery line before Tramlink, today its thriving.

Wimbledon to Sutton, Sutton to Epsom Downs are rundown today, and the CSB line is declining. Caterham could go too. As could Merstham, Coulsdon South and the slow Quarry lines, and Vic to Reigate services. Tattenham could be single tracked, 2 platform at Tattenham, and Coulsdon Town as a peak hour turnback.

Not sure Purley Oaks and Reedham are really needed either.

Lots of potential for Beeching round 2 to clean up Southern a bit.

All that could go.
Dont need staff for a tram halt, and more stops offers better options for passengers.


I disagree. Maybe my seat is a different view towards the passengers.

Sutton and vicinity has amongst the worst public transport links in London, in terms of populace.
.

Admins pls delete this post which I posted in error - I don't seem to be able to either edit it or delete it.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Might it make sense to close the whole line from, Selhurst and West Norwood through to Sutton ?

Reading these posts, suggest everything is about improving service on other lines. There are huge numbers of passengers on the Wallington line in peak hours, but the issue seems to be poor frequency and short trains, which the railway is simply too expensive to operate efficiently.

However, turning this whole line over to Tramlink maybe beneficial.
Trams could easily run out of Norwood Junction through West Croydon up to Sutton, go up on the street across the town centre, and drop onto the Wimbledon line through and take over to P9 at Wimbledon.

Thameslink on Sutton loop could be abandoned.
Southern services to West Croydon could be abandoned.
Southern could re route Epsom Downs via Carshalton, Streatham and Clapham High Street to Victoria. (that is if Epsom Downs isnt closed).


At West Croydon, level the whole station.
It could become a much larger tram / bus interchange.
The bridge over the wallington line no longer needed, and trams routed via West Croydon in both directions.

Trams running up to Sutton could include new stops at the old site of Bandon halt, Plough lane, stanley park and Kings lane.

As side of the Wallington line, I think Caterham is a candidate for closure, as is Merstham, Coulsdon South (and those close this whole line, and string across a connection from the Quarry lines to Redhill at Merstham)., thus saving the need for Reigate services too.

Separately, why on earth would they need a turn back at Wallington ? Sutton is good as any, p4 only has one every 30 minutes. In the old pre-covid days I would have said finishing the construction of Cheam’s centre platforms would make most sense.

I think there are far to many passengers for trams to work. Trams have less capacity than a four car EMU (80m). You could not operate 80 metre length trams trough Sutton or any other road. Many of the services are longer than four car, 8 or 10 car iirc. The conversion of the West Croydon to Wimbledon line to trams was because the old train service was very infrequent and carried very few people. This is not the case with the lines you are talking about.

 

[cle]

How about the 'fast' services from Epsom to London Bridge via West Croydon? Absurd idea.

Wimbledon - Sutton as a tram, potentially. It's not well-used or frequent - and has better options nearby. And all trains via Mitcham would be a good service down a busy route. Trams via Wallington - would never happen.

 

[PGAT]

Wimbledon - Sutton as a tram, potentially. It's not well-used or frequent - and has better options nearby.

Practically that wouldn’t work, because the other loop line platform would have to be taken which would leave Haydons Road and Tooting with no service.

 

[JonathanH]

How about the 'fast' services from Epsom to London Bridge via West Croydon? Absurd idea.

The suggestion above was to bin them. Epsom to London Bridge could go via Tulse Hill if the connection needs to be maintained.