Inside European Sleeper’s turbulent first season of night trains

[Adlington]

From the Euronews, with the lead: "Europe's night trains face cut-throat competition from budget airlines":

European Sleeper, a Dutch-Belgian startup whose launch in May is part of a renaissance of night train travel [...] says there's demand for such services, which offer a lower-emissions alternative to airplanes for climate-conscious travellers, while bringing back some of the romance of an older and slower form of travel.

European Sleeper said it endured a time-consuming back and forth with national train operators to agree on timetables for its Brussels-to-Berlin service. The company also spent a year-and-a-half scouring Europe for second-hand sleeper train coaches to rent. The refurbished couchettes had cases of faulty power sockets and broken toilets. In extreme cases, last-minute technical faults forced the company to downgrade some passengers to overnight seats or cancel their tickets altogether.

Years of decline in Europe's night train network coincided with the rise of low-cost airlines. Today, a night train from Berlin to Zurich costs around €160 and takes over 12 hours. An easyJet flight between the two cities is much quicker, even including airport security, and costs less than half that. Calculations by the Norwegian government underscore the profitability challenge. Last year it dampened hopes for a new route from Oslo to Copenhagen, saying it would have to spend up to €3.8 million a year in subsidies to offer tickets at a rate that travellers are prepared to pay.

Cost pressures aside, night train operators must navigate Europe's ageing network of mismatched gauge systems and different languages.
At night, trains compete with freight traffic and construction works, and during the busy morning hours they vie for arrival slots at stations with commuter services.

The article starts and ends with rather positive comments on the journey by two female students travelling from Brussels to Berlin.
Personally I see night trains as something for hardcore rail fans and backpackers.

 

[AlbertBeale]

From the Euronews, with the lead: "Europe's night trains face cut-throat competition from budget airlines":


The article starts and ends with rather positive comments on the journey by two female students travelling from Brussels to Berlin.
Personally I see night trains as something for hardcore rail fans and backpackers.

I see them as something for people preferring a civilised, comfortable and time-effective way to travel, with the significant bonus of not trashing our ecosystem. I see that as common sense, not hardcore.

 

[Krokodil]

Personally I see night trains as something for hardcore rail fans and backpackers.

Have you ever actually been on one?

I've shared compartments with all sorts of people. Never met a rail fan in one, occasionally get backpackers, but have also had a middle-aged woman and her elderly mother, a couple in their twenties (presumably coming back from a romantic weekend on a budget), groups of young men going on weekends away.

 

[railfan99]

Have you ever actually been on one?

I've shared compartments with all sorts of people. Never met a rail fan in one, occasionally get backpackers, but have also had a middle-aged woman and her elderly mother, a couple in their twenties (presumably coming back from a romantic weekend on a budget), groups of young men going on weekends away.

I had a late 30s German mother and 12yo son sharing with my wife and I in a four-berth couchette from Salzburg to Rome last year (although they'd joined at Munich IIRC).

I've never seen other railfans on board, including within the last month when I was on one from Milano Centrale to Palermo, and two nights later, Palermo to Rome. Most seemed to be middle class (or higher), often travelling with children: hardly any backpackers.

 

[rvdborgt]

I've never seen other railfans on board

The same is true for me. In all of my night train journeys (2-4 each year since about 1995), I never met other railfans.

 

[ivanhoe]

I’ve been following Midnight Trains vision through its weekly newsletter. They are finding lack of availability of suitable sleeper stock. They dropped the ‘bombshell ‘this week of having to put on hold any services from London & Edinburgh, as well as commitments to Lisbon and questioning the route to Copenhagen. It will be a Paris Centric start up with routes to Milan, Barcelona , Madrid and Rome.
I wish any proposal well but am unsure of current demand but fully aware of future potential for reasons already stated here,

 

[AlbertBeale]

I’ve been following Midnight Trains vision through its weekly newsletter. They are finding lack of availability of suitable sleeper stock. They dropped the ‘bombshell ‘this week of having to put on hold any services from London & Edinburgh, as well as commitments to Lisbon and questioning the route to Copenhagen. It will be a Paris Centric start up with routes to Milan, Barcelona , Madrid and Rome.
I wish any proposal well but am unsure of current demand but fully aware of future potential for reasons already stated here,

Bringing back a sleeper between Paris and Italy seems a no-brainer - it always seemed quite well patronised over many many years; I found it very useful when it existed. It's a pretty obvious gap in routes that made up the international overnight network for years pre-Covid, but still await reinstatement. Is there any other such significant connection (outside the Iberian peninsula) which disappeared in recent years but hasn't come back yet in some form?

 

[Krokodil]

The permanent loss of Thello sleepers during the pandemic was certainly a significant blow

 

[Bald Rick]

They dropped the ‘bombshell ‘this week of having to put on hold any services from London & Edinburgh

Possibly the smallest and yet most expected ‘bombshell‘ on the subject!

 

[JonasB]

Bringing back a sleeper between Paris and Italy seems a no-brainer - it always seemed quite well patronised over many many years; I found it very useful when it existed. It's a pretty obvious gap in routes that made up the international overnight network for years pre-Covid, but still await reinstatement. Is there any other such significant connection (outside the Iberian peninsula) which disappeared in recent years but hasn't come back yet in some form?

Night trains from Copenhagen.

 

[RT4038]

The permanent loss of Thello sleepers during the pandemic was certainly a significant blow

I used this service (both business and leisure) many times - it was awfully unreliable, both punctuality and equipment. Each morning a surprise to find out where you were and therefore how late! Couldn't rely on any connection without a suitably large buffer. On the northbound journey disturbance at Modane in the early hours, whilst border police scrutinise the passengers for potential illegals. On my observation patronage was patchy, some nights full, others empty. Hardly a pleasurable experience for most, just an endurance.

 

[Fragezeichnen]

delete

 

[mike57]

Personally I see night trains as something for hardcore rail fans and backpackers.

I think they have a place, there are those who dont like flying, and they can provide link between areas which do not have easy access to international airports. If the quality is good they can provide an alternative to night in a hotel and/or an early start. And this is before you get into the green agenda.

I think if they can get established they will grow and prosper.

As for extending the network to the UK, well that seems like a step too far at the moment. Loading gauge issues and border control issues are going to be hurdles which whilst they COULD be overcome, will probably be out of reach of a commercail operation currently.

 

[notverydeep]

I think they have a place, there are those who don't like flying, and they can provide link between areas which do not have easy access to international airports. If the quality is good they can provide an alternative to night in a hotel and/or an early start. And this is before you get into the green agenda.

I think if they can get established they will grow and prosper.

The number of people who do not like flying is actually quite large. There have been a variety of studies over the years and it is hard to pin down the original research and of course there is a range from 'do not enjoy' up to 'terrified by' the experience - which are not always disaggregated in surveys. One study read a number of years ago suggested that the population (of at least the developed world) can be characterised as dividing into three broad categories and gave rough percentages for each one: 40% have no issues with flying, 40% dislike it or become anxious or stressed by it to varying degrees but 'grin and bear it' because of the opportunity that it gives them and 20% avoid it completely.

If you think the last group is too large, bear in mind that most of these are people who just make choices that mean that they never have to contemplate flying - they don't ever go on the kind of holidays that require flying, they don't apply for jobs where it might be required and they turn down invitations to visit that would mean flying. This group clearly contains those who are consciously too afraid of flying to contemplate it, but they are likely less than a quarter of this group.

This does mean that up to 60% of the population might be prefer overnight trains to short haul flights as long as they are more pleasant or at least less stressful than flying, especially where such links are comfortable, reasonable value, convenient and straight forward, even if they are more time consuming overall.

That said I wouldn't your breath for any new overnight routes between Europe and the UK sadly...

 

[takno]

The number of people who do not like flying is actually quite large. There have been a variety of studies over the years and it is hard to pin down the original research and of course there is a range from 'do not enjoy' up to 'terrified by' the experience - which are not always disaggregated in surveys. One study read a number of years ago suggested that the population (of at least the developed world) can be characterised as dividing into three broad categories and gave rough percentages for each one: 40% have no issues with flying, 40% dislike it or become anxious or stressed by it to varying degrees but 'grin and bear it' because of the opportunity that it gives them and 20% avoid it completely.

If you think the last group is too large, bear in mind that most of these are people who just make choices that mean that they never have to contemplate flying - they don't ever go on the kind of holidays that require flying, they don't apply for jobs where it might be required and they turn down invitations to visit that would mean flying. This group clearly contains those who are consciously too afraid of flying to contemplate it, but they are likely less than a quarter of this group.

This does mean that up to 60% of the population might be prefer overnight trains to short haul flights as long as they are more pleasant or at least less stressful than flying, especially where such links are comfortable, reasonable value, convenient and straight forward, even if they are more time consuming overall.

That said I wouldn't your breath for any new overnight routes between Europe and the UK sadly...

I don't mind flying, but if I'm doing it more than a half a dozen times a year then I'm actively looking for alternatives, even relatively extreme ones like 12 hour train journeys. Obviously there are things which help, like lounges and business class, but they don't solve the whole problem and come at some cost which often removes arguments about planes being cheaper. Overall that probably puts me in one of your 40%s

My mum will never say she's afraid of flying, but she will also never go abroad without really detailing why. As far as I'm aware has only been in a plane 5 times and on one of those she threw herself out of it, so definitely in the 20%

 

[ac6000cw]

I don't think I've come across other railfans on night trains either.

I think they have a place, there are those who dont like flying, and they can provide link between areas which do not have easy access to international airports. If the quality is good they can provide an alternative to night in a hotel and/or an early start. And this is before you get into the green agenda.

I think if they can get established they will grow and prosper.

I don't think overnight trains have ever been more than a niche activity (compared to the frequency of daytime trains on busy long-distance passenger routes). There were more of them 50 years ago, as they often carried other traffic like mail and parcels (which improved their economics) and because daytime trains were slower back then. Also most long-distance passenger trains were loco-hauled, so some of the international overnight 'trains' were actually just a few through carriages (or just one sometimes) attached to a variety of night and day trains en-route - I remember reading some pretty lengthy itineraries listed on carriage-side route boards on 1979/1980 Interail trips.

I can completely understand why (until very recently) European night trains were in steady decline, in the face of much faster and more frequent daytime trains, plus the economics of operating them getting worse as staff costs increased.

Like those who dislike flying, there's also plenty of people who dislike overnight travel (regarding it as something to be endured rather than enjoyed).

 

[mike57]

This does mean that up to 60% of the population might be prefer overnight trains to short haul flights as long as they are more pleasant or at least less stressful than flying, especially where such links are comfortable, reasonable value, convenient and straight forward, even if they are more time consuming overall.

If I were a provider of sleeper service I would be looking at total passenger numbers between the locations by all modes of transport v rail journeys. If the rail proportion was low, say 5% then I would see that as an opportunity, as one could double the rail share just by convincing another 5% to swap, and that doesnt feel like a big hurdle.

Also worth noting that if your SWMBO dislikes flying then you will try and avoid flying, so you get two for the price of one

 

[Bald Rick]

This does mean that up to 60% of the population might be prefer overnight trains to short haul flights as long as they are more pleasant or at least less stressful than flying, especially where such links are comfortable, reasonable value, convenient and straight forward, even if they are more time consuming overall.

That is quite a leap of logic. By the same logic, they might also prefer day trains, driving or coaches - whcih experience shows us they do.

 

[Krokodil]

I used this service (both business and leisure) many times - it was awfully unreliable, both punctuality and equipment. Each morning a surprise to find out where you were and therefore how late! Couldn't rely on any connection without a suitably large buffer. On the northbound journey disturbance at Modane in the early hours, whilst border police scrutinise the passengers for potential illegals. On my observation patronage was patchy, some nights full, others empty. Hardly a pleasurable experience for most, just an endurance.

Having arrived 4hr28mins late on a NightJet recently (had a couple of two hour delays with Caledonian Sleeper too, though both were attributable to Network Rail) I expect a few delays. Paris to Italy is definitely a significant gap in the network.

As for extending the network to the UK, well that seems like a step too far at the moment. Loading gauge issues and border control issues are going to be hurdles which whilst they COULD be overcome, will probably be out of reach of a commercail operation currently.

London-Europe would be a start, but it really needs a pro-rail government in Westminster (like "Amtrak Joe" Biden or Macron who has reinstated several Intercities de Nuit) to get the operation set up.

There have been a variety of studies over the years and it is hard to pin down the original research and of course there is a range from 'do not enjoy' up to 'terrified by' the experience - which are not always disaggregated in surveys. One study read a number of years ago suggested that the population (of at least the developed world) can be characterised as dividing into three broad categories and gave rough percentages for each one: 40% have no issues with flying, 40% dislike it or become anxious or stressed by it to varying degrees but 'grin and bear it' because of the opportunity that it gives them and 20% avoid it completely.

Flying is unpleasant for the most part. People don't fly Ryanair for pleasure, they do it because it's a cheap and quick way to get to where they're going. Rail has an opportunity to provide an alternative here.

I remember reading some pretty lengthy itineraries listed on carriage-side route boards on 1979/1980 Interail trips.

You just missed out on Paris to Istanbul which ceased in 1977, while Paris to Athens ceased the year before. Am I right in thinking that the only two-night sleeper left in Europe pre-pandemic was the Paris-Moscow one? Kept more for political reasons more than anything (SZD operated a number of sleepers to Western Europe primarily for the benefit of its diplomats, the one to Madrid requiring two bogie swaps en route). The pandemic suspended the service and sanctions have continued this state of affairs.

That is quite a leap of logic. By the same logic, they might also prefer day trains, driving or coaches - which experience shows us they do.

It's not extreme to say that 60% of people are potential customers, there waiting to be convinced. No one is suggesting that more than a tiny proportion are going to actually take the bait, we're just saying that there is a big sea to fish from.

 

[AlbertBeale]

I used this service (both business and leisure) many times - it was awfully unreliable, both punctuality and equipment. Each morning a surprise to find out where you were and therefore how late! Couldn't rely on any connection without a suitably large buffer. On the northbound journey disturbance at Modane in the early hours, whilst border police scrutinise the passengers for potential illegals. On my observation patronage was patchy, some nights full, others empty. Hardly a pleasurable experience for most, just an endurance.

I never used it in its later years when it was run by Thello; but when I travelled that route years before, it was reasonably punctual, and seemed quite well-loaded from what I can remember.

Bringing back a sleeper between Paris and Italy seems a no-brainer - it always seemed quite well patronised over many many years; I found it very useful when it existed. It's a pretty obvious gap in routes that made up the international overnight network for years pre-Covid, but still await reinstatement. Is there any other such significant connection (outside the Iberian peninsula) which disappeared in recent years but hasn't come back yet in some form?

Night trains from Copenhagen.

Ah yes - one I forgot. Were they still running regularly pre-Covid then? I only ever did that route overnight on a chartered train from Paris and Brussels (more than a decade ago I guess), so have no memory of regular overnight services on that route...

I don't think overnight trains have ever been more than a niche activity (compared to the frequency of daytime trains on busy long-distance passenger routes). There were more of them 50 years ago, as they often carried other traffic like mail and parcels (which improved their economics) and because daytime trains were slower back then. Also most long-distance passenger trains were loco-hauled, so some of the international overnight 'trains' were actually just a few through carriages (or just one sometimes) attached to a variety of night and day trains en-route - I remember reading some pretty lengthy itineraries listed on carriage-side route boards on 1979/1980 Interail trips.

Well, the mix-and-match en route night trains do still exist (eg the Paris/Brussels to/from Berlin/Vienna Nightjets swap carriages during the night); and even attaching part of a multi-destination sleeper to a very late or very early day train still happens too - eg the through Zurich-Prague carriage on one of the Zurich to all-points-east overnight services gets dropped off around Linz during the night and travels the last leg to Prague attached to the first northbound Linz-Prague train around 6am or so.

You just missed out on Paris to Istanbul which ceased in 1977, while Paris to Athens ceased the year before. Am I right in thinking that the only two-night sleeper left in Europe pre-pandemic was the Paris-Moscow one? Kept more for political reasons more than anything (SZD operated a number of sleepers to Western Europe primarily for the benefit of its diplomats, the one to Madrid requiring two bogie swaps en route). The pandemic suspended the service and sanctions have continued this state of affairs.

No - the Nice (via Austria) to Moscow route was also a two-nighter. In fact it was longer - I think the Paris-Berlin-Moscow was little more than a night and a day and a night, whilst the Riviera-Moscow was a full two days and two nights (or two nights and two days in the opposite direction). I remember getting off a train at Nice station a few years back, and seeing a swish-looking train on the adjacent platform; it was apparent it was a sleeper, and an up-market-looking one at that. Then I saw the electronic route and destination sign on the side of the train flashing up Ницца, and I clicked! (The Russian name for Nice being interesting evidence that Russians first spent much time in that area during the brief period in the mid-19th century when Nice was part of Italy - or, strictly, part of one of the kingdoms that later came together to form Italy - and so the town became know in Russian by its Italian-language name [Nizza], transliterated into Russian Cyrillic of course.)

 

[Bald Rick]

It's not extreme to say that 60% of people are potential customers, there waiting to be convinced. No one is suggesting that more than a tiny proportion are going to actually take the bait, we're just saying that there is a big sea to fish from.

Theres a 7 million people sized sea to fish in for London to Edinburgh / Glasgow, of which the sleeper takes about 2%, and that requires a lot of subsidy.

 

[zero]

"Backpackers" generally want to travel as cheaply as possible and sleeper trains are rarely cheap.

Trains which travel overnight can be cheap. In past years I used the German overnight trains between NRW and Berlin / BW a number of times, which used to be sleeper trains, then for a year or two they were just ordinary IC/ICE and now have regular coaches attached to sleeper coaches; plenty of backpackers on the normal coaches for which I've never paid more than €25. Meanwhile the sleeper section has what appear to be more middle class passengers including elderly.

 

[mike57]

Theres a 7 million people sized sea to fish in for London to Edinburgh / Glasgow, of which the sleeper takes about 2%, and that requires a lot of subsidy.

Is that because loading is poor or because income from fares on a fully loaded service still does not meet operating costs?

 

[Krokodil]

Theres a 7 million people sized sea to fish in for London to Edinburgh / Glasgow, of which the sleeper takes about 2%, and that requires a lot of subsidy.

Yet Nightjet is profitable. Economies of scale undoubtedly help there. I'm sure that Caledonian Sleeper isn't helped by being a self-contained operation these days, unlike when crews and AC locos were hired from Virgin West Coast. The Night Riviera was said to be breaking even after they got rid of the Plymouth portion working. Caledonian Sleeper certainly isn't short of passengers.

 

[takno]

Theres a 7 million people sized sea to fish in for London to Edinburgh / Glasgow, of which the sleeper takes about 2%, and that requires a lot of subsidy.

The Scotland to London sleepers run pretty much continually full, so they clearly can't be taken as a sign that there's no larger market for then.

If they wanted to take more or run at a lower subsidy then we'd have to deal with some of our curiously British obsessions with wildly overspeccing fire safety, not allowing anybody to share with strangers, and wasting the subsidy on providing a traveling 3 star hotel instead of using the space on transport.

Freed from those limitations, our loading gauge, and our heavily used network with its dependence on overnight possessions, you may well be able to get an interesting and reasonably priced product going in Europe

 

[RT4038]

Yet Nightjet is profitable.

Maybe, maybe not.

 

[Krokodil]

Maybe, maybe not.

‘We are not becoming a billionaire with the night train business, but we are making a very little profit.‘

If they wanted to take more or run at a lower subsidy then we'd have to deal with some of our curiously British obsessions with wildly overspeccing fire safety, not allowing anybody to share with strangers, and wasting the subsidy on providing a traveling 3 star hotel instead of using the space on transport.

Indeed, in Europe single travellers always share with strangers unless they pay to book the entire compartment, just as you used to be able to do on CS. Removing that choice is a bizzare retrograde step in my view. The new CS sets should also have come with at least one couchette coach in each portion to provide a higher capacity budget option that still allowed you to sleep properly. Probably four berth rather than six, because of the loading gauge.

 

[mike57]

ndeed, in Europe single travellers always share with strangers unless they pay to book the entire compartment, just as you used to be able to do on CS. Removing that choice is a bizzare retrograde step in my view. The new CS sets should also have come with at least one couchette coach in each portion to provide a higher capacity budget option that still allowed you to sleep properly. Probably four berth rather than six, because of the loading gauge.

Does that bring the CS sleeper to the point where the best option might be that couchette is the 2nd class option, and the first class option is a private compartment, costed such that its pretty much the same cost for 1 or 2 person occupancy. Japanese Railways have the nobinobi sleeping cars, would that layout fit within our loading gauge. It could offer a high denisity lie flat option. For reference here are a couple of pictures I found. Personally if I was on a budget I would rather bring a camping pad and use this than a traditional seat.

 

[takno]

Does that bring the CS sleeper to the point where the best option might be that couchette is the 2nd class option, and the first class option is a private compartment, costed such that its pretty much the same cost for 1 or 2 person occupancy. Japanese Railways have the nobinobi sleeping cars, would that layout fit within our loading gauge. It could offer a high denisity lie flat option. For reference here are a couple of pictures I found. Personally if I was on a budget I would rather bring a camping pad and use this than a traditional seat.
View attachment 146232View attachment 146233

I think I'd probably prefer lockable pods, but ultimately running them lengthwise and 2-high either side of the corridor like this seems better than seating

 

[RT4038]

‘We are not becoming a billionaire with the night train business, but we are making a very little profit.‘

Hmmm... Taking into account what external (i.e. not passenger fares) funding?